Just passing by quickly
Bismillah
I like AbaAbdillah.
He seems open to change.
Many members were once at the stage where they set themselves apart from "the other Muslims" and thought that the "true" Islam was only what was good and pleasant to hear.
Some remained in complete ignorance, while the others were gradually able to let go of Islam.
But I think AbaAbdillah will become a reformist of sorts, like Irshad Manji, judging by his statements about Salafis, the Qur'an being meant for a certain time, and the Muslim world needing to be more 'rational'. That isn't a bad thing for us either.
I find the whole thing about having to be insane to reject Islam funny.
I could say Islam in itself is insane.
As for the next point, I think you're partially right. The media has spread some misconceptions about Islam.
In regards to Islam reaching people in a "convincing way", don't you think ex-converts felt mislead?
By the way, your "ignorant Muslims who have no manners" remark provided some laughs.
"...Reverend Clee, right here, is a Christian Minister, here in Detroit. He’s the head of the 'Freedom Now Party.' All of these are Christian Ministers — All of these are Christian Ministers, but they don’t come to us as Christian Ministers. They come to us as fighters in some other category.
I’m a Muslim minister. The same as they are Christian Ministers, I’m a Muslim minister. And I don’t believe in fighting today in any one front, but on all fronts. In fact, I’m a 'Black Nationalist Freedom Fighter.' Islam is my religion, but I believe my religion is my personal business. It governs my personal life, my personal morals. And my religious philosophy is personal between me and the God in whom I believe; just as the religious philosophy of these others is between them and the God in whom they believe.
And this is best this way. Were we to come out here discussing religion, we’d have too many differences from the outstart and we could never get together. ... If we bring up religion, we’ll be in an argument, and the best way to keep away from arguments and differences, as I said earlier, put your religion at home — in the closet. Keep it between you and your God. Because if it hasn’t done anything more for you than it has, you need to forget it anyway."
Doesn't the 90-foot body in the after-life strike you as absurd in the least bit?
Greetings to you, hope you are well.
When I said that a person has to be sane. In Islam a person who has mental problems, or disabled, or a child, is not to be taken into account at all for anything that he/she does, they are exempt. I did not actually mean that you have to be insane to reject Islam. I just wanted to clear that misunderstanding.
As for ex-muslims, I cannot comment about a persons experience with Islam, I do not know what they went through and why they became Muslims and left Islam. Sometimes people get burned out, sometimes people change their minds, sometimes people have negative experiences, sometimes people get pushed away, sometimes people find their answers elsewhere...
The best way to explain it, is when you fall in love. Sometimes you're with someone and it all makes sense, and you think you will always be with that person, but something changes and you find your destiny elsewhere. You can still remain friends afterwards, or grow to resent that person, or feel misled (the way you put it) it all depends on the individual and his/her experience.
Just to wrap it up, Islam actually acknowledges people changing their minds, in one saying Muhammad (SAW) says:
"A person may do the deeds of the people of heaven until he is only a yard or so away from it, but then his destiny overtakes him and he does what the people of hell do and he is thrown in it. On the other hand, a person may do what the people of hell do until he is only a yard or so away from it, and his destiny overtakes him and he does what the people of heaven do which ensures his admittance into it."
You comparing me to Irshad manji lol. I cringe everytime I hear about her. I can't really say anything about her, so I will say nothing at all.
My opinion is the Quran still applies today - but the only way to understand it properly is to look at it in the right time and context. Instead of using verses out of context for scaremongering, building hostility, condemning anyone who doesn't agree with you, segregation, terrorism...
The salafi's tend to do this alot, and I don't usually single one group out, but I do not agree with their literal interpretations.
I accept all of the fundamental beliefs, and I am not a reformer in the sense that I want to create my own laws whilst claiming to be a Muslim, nor do I want to water my religion down till the point where it holds no ground.
In the Muslim world, we have two problems at the moment. Reformers, who want to water religion down completely to where it holds no ground and knock down Islam and rebuild it in their own image. Extremists who are not open to discussion and believe in their way or the highway, and that their version of Islam is true and any other interpretation other than their narrowminded one is wrong. The latter have very little comprehension and can't see beyond the literal, they are limited in thought and understanding.
These are the two extremes. I accept the fundamentals that form the building structure of Islam, but what Islam leaves open for debate and dialogue I look at what past and present high calibre scholars have said, and see what makes the most sense to me.
If there is no grounds for my opinion, or the it goes against what was revealed, then I discard my own opinion.
As for my comment about Muslims with no manners. I think the greatest enemy to Muslim, are themselves, and it is not solely the media image.
I can either confirm that stereotype, or I can prove it to be baseless.
Sadly there are some who will not give Muslims the time of day to prove them wrong, do to how the media portrays us. However I have come across too many Muslims who cheat, steal, lie, backbite, spread rumours, curse, act arrogant and full of pride, judgemental, poor hygiene...
Despite the fact that Muhammad (SAW) emphasised so much on manners, saying that you can earn the rewards of a person that prays all night simply by having good manners.
As for the 90 feet in the after life, and some person asked obnoxiously whether I believe in that shit.
There are some matters that I believe on faith. It is not a stretch for me to believe that, if I believe that God created the universe, and all that exists, why would he not be able to resurrect us?
Anyway thank you for your comments.
AbaAbdillah- Your sentiments are appreciated and I don't envy you at all for the apparent task you have given yourself in trying to explain away all of the questions that you've been presented. The more reasonable among us realize that you must have other things to tend to, so don't feel compelled to answer everything. It's an unfair expectation and would require hours of your time. Once upon a time I used to do similar dialogues and they are certainly healthy for the mind, though uncomfortable. You seem to be willing to try to rise to the challenge though, and for that you have my respect. All of this is good for our original fence-sitter too, I suspect!
Hello, I actually wanted to talk to you more in detail, but it takes me ages to reply to other people, so I really can't be bothered to sit down for that long. I will reply to what you said before, later.
Thank you for your understanding, and kind words.
Fascinating discourse. For imperilling his immortal soul in this den of vice I tip my hat to AbaAbdullahi.
A few questions for Aba to blow his hair right back:
(1) The Quran maintains that God ejected Iblis from the shady groves of paradise for his non-compliance to genuflect before Adam. If he was banished from heaven, how could Iblis have whispered soft words of temptation into Adam’s ear to make him sink his teeth into the forbidden fruit?
(2) If prostrating oneself to mortal men is condemned by Islam as the height of shirk, why does Allah command Iblis to kneel before Adam? And in light of the severe penalty for setting up rivals to God, shouldn't the devil’s refusal be commended as a model of tawheed instead of being roundly vilified?
(3) If Iblis, in a sudden pang of conscience, repented of his sin tomorrow and strove to guide the hearts of men to God would that not invalidate the Quran's claim that he will be roasted in the flames that never endeth? Afterall why would the devil who presumably has seen the raging fires of hell given that he was in the presence of Allah willfully choose to breakdance in the lowest rung of Jahannam when he could easily apologise without any personal cost to him? He's got nothing to lose and the world to gain.
LOL, you really made me laugh. You're actually very witty. I have to say those are very good questions, and I will answer them. Very quickly I'll say this.
1) Not many scholars have touched on that, each one gives a different opinion but not a solid one, it is one of those aspects that is not deemed significant enough for us to have the detail. Some have taken the biblical point of view.
However in the Quran satan says to God, when he is challenging Him to give him respite and allow him to interfere with our thoughts and influence our decisions, he says:
"(Iblis) said: "Then, by Thy power, I will put them all in the wrong,- "Except Thy Servants amongst them, sincere and purified (by Thy Grace)." 38:82-83
So it could be that God gave him permission to whisper a suggestion. God knows best.
2) There is a sect in Iraq called the Yazidi's who worship satan in the form of a peacock, and refer to him as an angel and call him melek taus, the peacock of the angels. They believe that he passed the test by not prostrating to Adam (as) and that it would have been shirk, as you said.
However, there are different types of prostrations, there are ones of thankfulness, ones of praise, ones of worship, and ones of honour.
This was meant to be a prostration of honour and obediance to God.
In the Quran it also says:
"And he (Prophet Yusuf) raised his parents to the throne
and they fell down before him prostrate. And he said: "O my father! This is the interpretation of my dream aforetime! My Lord has made it come true!' 12:100
According to Ibn Kathir: "
The practice of prostrating was allowed for previous nations, but was repealed for ours. Mu`adh said to the Prophet , "I visited Ash-Sham and found that they used to prostate before their priests and scholars."
3) He asked for respite up till the day of resurrection and his main goal is to drag as many people with him. God already decreed his abode and those who follow him, and he challenged and disobeyed Him in his presence. I think the answer lies in the fact that he is too stubborn and arrogant to ever change his mind. It could be cynicism on his part to drag as many people to hell as he can in spiteful blind hatred.
Keep in mind that after Adam (as) disobeyed God he immediately repented. Whereas satan was never repentant, infact he was so arrogant that he blamed God for "setting him up".
In the Quran God shares knowledge of the unseen future:
And Satan will say when the matter is decided: "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth: I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me: then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty." 14:22
And God knows best.
What do you actually mean by God being outside of space and time?
This could mean he is omnipresent. He is present everywhere in terms of x,y and z. And knows about all events (past and future) with respect to 't'
Or
More likely (as you said "outside") God is in some other dimension where x,y,z and t do not apply to him. Like some people give example of 2D objects on paper viewed by someone in 3D realm.
The following verse associates both time (6 days) and space (established himself on the throne)
From Quran Verse 7:54 "Your Guardian-Lord Is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority) "
Any ways what actually bothers me is following:
1)At least we know God's actions obviously have a starting point and end point.
2)And if God knows future events then before starting any action God knows the EXACT consequences.
From 1 and 2, God knew most of the humans (he is going to create) will suffer for eternity in hell fire (he was to create) due to Iblis (also created by God)
Three actions here despite knowing the exact consequences
So either God was compelled to do these actions despite knowing the consequences. Means God does not have free will. So what is the use of praying to God then. He can not change his actions.
Or God was setting up a stage for an interesting game as he was bored of Angels.
It will still make some sense if God is not supposed to know the future. However creating humans with conscious and knowing before creating that most of the humans will suffer for eternity sounds even more sadistic.
To summarize my point:
You may say God knew it before hand but the actions were actually taken by Iblis and Adam out of their free will.
The problem here is that these events occurred after the action of creation by God. And before his Action of Creation God knew the consequences.
E.g. if I make a weapon capable of killing some one and I know for certain that my son will kill himself using the same weapon in FUTURE.
Either I will not make the weapon or at least not give it to my son to play with it unless I want my son to kill himself.
I still give the weapon to my son and then hold him responsible for killing himself with the weapon because the son did it out of his free will. I did not ask him to do so. Can I be called a loving parent?
As for the rest who posed questions.
MAS you haven't even let me attempt to answer your other questions and you have already mounted more. No worries. But that just means that you have to give me more time. I still haven't replied to the other person too, and I will reply soon.
Btw, I don't mind you asked questions, but I feel as if you have already made up your mind and not looking for valid answers but looking to validate and justify your own feelings, since you said you had doubts, but then you choose to come to a forum full of people who left Islam.
If you truly want to remain Muslim and looking for answers, then I will try and I ask that you try to seek knowledge as much as you can. This is an important decision, not something that will be resolved over the internet.
It is clear from your questions that you are engaging in scatterbrain approach and very conflicted.
You have heard the advice from the people on this board and you can make of it what you will.
My advice, is to implore God with sincerity to guide you to what is right and to seek knowledge, and to deal with one aspect at a time. Maybe you should stop listening to what people say for a change. If you are reading material that is attacking Islam, I suggest you stop for the time being.
Basically don't pay attention to outside influences for a while. Whether they be Muslim or non-Muslim.
Spend a good amount of time asking God for help and have willpower to call at times of response.
Best times of calling on God, are in the night, or last third of the night. After obligatory prayers. On friday before Maghrib prayer.
Do this for a while. And in the end, you are accountable for your choices. Never lose hope in God. Remember God's Mercy. Any time you come back to Him, He will Forgive you and accept you back.
Remember that Muhammad (SAW) talked about a man who murdered 100 people but was still forgiven after he repented sincerely and I am sure you haven't done anything as bad as that, nor has anyone here. Remember that Muhammad (SAW) told us that God said, that if a persons sins reached the skies, God would forgive them all as long as he/she associated no partners with Him and asked for forgiveness.
May God inshaAllah guide you to what is right and make it easy, and I believe that I have good answers for your questions, so bare with me.
You need to isolate yourself from all external influences right now, and improve your relationship with God, and call on him.
This is my advice to you right now, as a Muslim speaking to a Muslim.
I will answer all of your questions to the best of my ability, so please be patient.
Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim