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 Topic: Hi from on the fence muslim

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  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #600 - February 13, 2011, 03:53 PM
    Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 03:48 PM
    Are you seriously claiming that hearsay from a so-called prophet Mohammed are equivalent to the commands, and scriptures sent by an Omniscient GOD of the entire Universe. You cannot be serious that ramblings of a mad Kahin are the final word of GOD.

    It is all hearsay, and only fools believe in hearsay and legends. Think for a minute, why would an Omniscient GOD require your skin, feet, hands, ears and tongues to testify against us on the day of Judgement. Yet, he never ever mentions our BRAIN in the SLIGHTEST.


    you're not following the conversation between me and ishina... we have already moved outside the boundaries of scripture.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #601 - February 13, 2011, 03:54 PM
    Consciousness is due to the electrical activity in our brain. Nothing more than a bunch of chemical and electrical signals in our body. There is nothing miraculous about it.

    OTHERWISE WE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MAKE YOU UNCONSCIOUS BY MERELY ADMINISTERING ANESTHETIC WOULD WE? 
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #602 - February 13, 2011, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 03:44 PM
    but you wouldn't submit to his commands, regardless?


    Not regardless. I'd need a reason to submit to its commands, obviously.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #603 - February 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 03:53 PM
    you're not following the conversation between me and ishina... we have already moved outside the boundaries of scripture.


    What exactly are the commands of GOD, if you have already moved outside the boundaries of scripture?
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #604 - February 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 03:20 PM
    right, but that wasn't olweasel question.

    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 03:53 PM
    you're not following the conversation between me and ishina... we have already moved outside the boundaries of scripture.

    He is clearly talking to you directly. Why is he obliged to read your conversation with other people?
    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #605 - February 13, 2011, 03:57 PM
    I am reading his conversation with other people, and my queries and interjections are based solely on that.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #606 - February 13, 2011, 03:57 PM
    Quote
    Not regardless. I'd need a reason to submit to its commands, obviously.


    by regardless, i meant regardless of the commands, (even if he commanded worship, for example).

    but your answer is clear to me now (i think). i think you believe no entity deserves the title God. If there must be a god, then you're it (at least as far as your freedom is concerned).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #607 - February 13, 2011, 03:59 PM
    Quote
    by regardless, i meant regardless of the commands, (even if he commanded worship, for example).

    but your answer is clear to me now (i think). i think you believe no entity deserves the title God. If there must be a god, then you're it.


    I do not think Ishina means to say that she is the Goddess Supreme. You are looking at the universe in too much of a narrow scope. Your concept of GOD is flawed.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #608 - February 13, 2011, 04:02 PM
    see what i wrote to her again.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #609 - February 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
    Quote
    Your concept of GOD is flawed.

    Is there a flawless one?
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #610 - February 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 03:57 PM
    by regardless, i meant regardless of the commands, (even if he commanded worship, for example).

    but your answer is clear to me now (i think). i think you believe no entity deserves the title God. If there must be a god, then you're it (at least as far as your freedom is concerned).


    No, this was always about if an entity is worthy of my respect. So far, this hypothetical entity isn't worthy of my respect. I'm not about to submit to something just because it said so.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #611 - February 13, 2011, 04:04 PM
    Quote from: muddy on February 13, 2011, 03:56 PM
    He is clearly talking to you directly. Why is he obliged to read your conversation with other people?


    ok, here's some plain english for you: FUCK OFF!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #612 - February 13, 2011, 04:04 PM
    Quote from: arX on February 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
    Is there a flawless one?


    Flawless one is possible, but very unlikely to define in human terms. Quran described a majorly flawed one!
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #613 - February 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
    No, this was always about if an entity is worthy of my respect. So far, this hypothetical entity isn't worthy of my respect. I'm not about to submit to something just because it said so.


    suppose, he has your respect, would you submit to a command of worship?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #614 - February 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 04:04 PM
    Flawless one is possible, but very unlikely to define in human terms. Quran described a majorly flawed one!


    would you call the creator of this world we know, flawless?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #615 - February 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on February 13, 2011, 04:03 PM
    No, this was always about if an entity is worthy of my respect. So far, this hypothetical entity isn't worthy of my respect. I'm not about to submit to something just because it said so.


    Why would the creator of the Universe of this magnitude be worried about our respect, or whether we worship Him or not? How much do our good or bad really affect this entity? That is my point.

    Creator of Universe will demand respect and worship without proof of his existence... Highly unlikely!

    Since there is no proof of His existence, then we cannot seriously be expected to worship or respect Him... Quran is not even close to being a proof of anything.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #616 - February 13, 2011, 04:10 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
    would you call the creator of this world we know, flawless?


    I would call the creator flawless, but I would not be able to describe him in any human terms. We are not able to describe someone who creates a Universe so vast in mere human terms. That is why a Quran revealed in 23 years by a person revealing less than one verse a day seems to be highly unlikely.

    And then the affairs of this Earth allegedly reach this Allah entity in 1,000 to 50,000 years (as per Quran), so he has a lot of catching up to do, and cannot possibly be good for answering any of our prayers.  He is definitely not GOD.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #617 - February 13, 2011, 04:14 PM
    Quote
    I would call the creator flawless, but I would not be able to describe him in any human terms. We are not able to describe someone who creates a Universe so vast in mere human terms. That is why a Quran revealed in 23 years by a person revealing less than one verse a day seems to be highly unlikely.

    And then the affairs of this Earth allegedly reach this Allah entity in 1,000 to 50,000 years (as per Quran), so he has a lot of catching up to do, and cannot possibly be good for answering any of our prayers.  He is definitely not GOD.


    again, enough talking about the quran (i've done enough of that already in my 2500+ posts). I'm talking now about YOUR God. You're a Deist, no? Is your God, the creator of all this suffering, flawless? yes/no?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #618 - February 13, 2011, 04:15 PM
    @ kenan

    i'll come back to your post later. Ciao for now.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #619 - February 13, 2011, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
    suppose, he has your respect, would you submit to a command of worship?


    Why would I? Why should I? For what purpose? Just because something might have my respect, it doesn't automatically follow that I ought to worship it. There is no chain of logic in between. We've gone from A to C without B.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #620 - February 13, 2011, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Why would the creator of the Universe of this magnitude be worried about our respect, or whether we worship Him or not? How much do our good or bad really affect this entity? That is my point.

    Creator of Universe will demand respect and worship without proof of his existence... Highly unlikely!

    Since there is no proof of His existence, then we cannot seriously be expected to worship or respect Him... Quran is not even close to being a proof of anything.


    Indeed.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #621 - February 13, 2011, 04:21 PM
    My GOD is flawless, but HE did not create this suffering. HE is totally indifferent to our suffering on EARTH. DEIST philosophy is simple, that GOD is like a Master Engineer who created the Universe and set it in motion, but does not break his own laws to interfere on EARTH by causing MIRACLES or sending REVELATIONS.

    This suffering is a natural cycle of the life and death. The most of it is created by human stupidity, greed, and selfishness. Some of it is created by natural effects of tectonics, gravity tides, water cycles, astronomical collisions etc. etc. We cannot blame GOD for any of this.

    GOD is free of all blame, uncreated, unfathomable, formless, undetectable, unassailable and totally beyond our understanding. Think of it this way, how would entities in a super computer feel, if they never knew what created them. Such is our state in this universe.

    YES, LIFE IS UNFAIR, and we nor GOD chooses where we are born or not. But think of Universe as a playground for the souls. Let us assume for a minute that we are in a cycle of perpetual reincarnation on this planet, or if you prefer, assume that we die and turn to dust. Either way we cannot prove either. But is it important?
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #622 - February 13, 2011, 04:26 PM
    I would recommend to debunker, he read a philosophy on Religion by our friend Muhammad ibn Zakariya al Razi:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Zakariya_al-Razi#On_Religion


    It is possible to have a GOD without scriptures or commandments from HIM.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #623 - February 13, 2011, 04:26 PM
    Deism: We don't understand yet how the universe came to be, therefore = God.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #624 - February 13, 2011, 04:29 PM
    Quote
    Deism: We don't understand yet how the universe came to be, therefore = God.


    That's correct. It is not much different from Agnosticism or Atheism. In fact one can easily slip into those two from Deism. Depends on one's expectation of the power and/or desires of GOD.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #625 - February 13, 2011, 04:30 PM
    Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 04:07 PM
    Since there is no proof of His existence, then we cannot seriously be expected to worship or respect Him... Quran is not even close to being a proof of anything.

    Versus:

    Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 04:21 PM
    My GOD is flawless, but HE did not create this suffering. HE is totally indifferent to our suffering on EARTH. DEIST philosophy is simple, that GOD is like a Master Engineer who created the Universe and set it in motion, but does not break his own laws to interfere on EARTH by causing MIRACLES or sending REVELATIONS.

    This suffering is a natural cycle of the life and death. The most of it is created by human stupidity, greed, and selfishness. Some of it is created by natural effects of tectonics, gravity tides, water cycles, astronomical collisions etc. etc. We cannot blame GOD for any of this.

    GOD is free of all blame, uncreated, unfathomable, formless, undetectable, unassailable and totally beyond our understanding. Think of it this way, how would entities in a super computer feel, if they never knew what created them. Such is our state in this universe.

    YES, LIFE IS UNFAIR, and we nor GOD chooses where we are born or not. But think of Universe as a playground for the souls. Let us assume for a minute that we are in a cycle of perpetual reincarnation on this planet, or if you prefer, assume that we die and turn to dust. Either way we cannot prove either. But is it important?


    Have you any evidence, let alone proof for such claims?
    Against the ruin of the world, there
    is only one defense: the creative act.

    -- Kenneth Rexroth
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #626 - February 13, 2011, 04:30 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 13, 2011, 03:46 PM
    are you saying you would accept my last answer to you, except you're not convinced he created anything in the first place?

    No.

    I mean: why would Allah create the 8 angels to carry his throne when he could do it himself? Just because?

    He didn't need to create them or else he won't be called a creator, since he created the universe to start with.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #627 - February 13, 2011, 04:35 PM
    Quote from: arX on February 13, 2011, 04:30 PM
    Versus:

    Have you any evidence, let alone proof for such claims?


    I have no evidence of anything. My belief is based on a rationale that there must be a creator of Universe. But I cannot argue or defend his existence, or convince you he exists or not. All I can say is that HE is not a personal GOD, but rather a GOD as defined by Einstein. A GOD who is solely a creator.

    BUT I CANNOT PROVE HOW OR WHY I FEEL WHAT IS THE TRUTH IS TRUE, AS IT IS NOTHING OBJECTIVE, BUT RATHER VERY SUBJECTIVE.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #628 - February 13, 2011, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: Zeeman on February 13, 2011, 04:29 PM
    That's correct. It is not much different from Agnosticism or Atheism. In fact one can easily slip into those two from Deism. Depends on one's expectation of the power and/or desires of GOD.


    It is the opposite of atheism.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Hi from on the fence muslim
     Reply #629 - February 13, 2011, 04:41 PM
    Quote
    It is the opposite of atheism.


    I agree. But it is more rational than theism. And closer in rationality to Atheism and Agnosticism.
    The most merciful Allah, who is more merciful than your own mortal mother, is capable of punishing you for eternity for a finite sin committed in a finite lifetime with finite knowledge, while your mother nor any living creature that is NOT a sadistic mother fucker would never commit such an act.
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