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 Topic: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws

 (Read 17268 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     OP - January 21, 2011, 02:47 PM

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/20/islam-ghamidi-pakistan-blasphemy-laws

    Islamic scholar attacks Pakistan's blasphemy laws

    In the wake of Salmaan Taseer's murder, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi declares Islamic councils are "telling lies to the people"


    Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, reformist scholar and popular television preacher. Photograph: Declan walsh

    A prominent Islamic scholar has launched a blistering attack on Pakistan's blasphemy laws, warning that failure to repeal them will only strengthen religious extremists and their violent followers.

    "The blasphemy laws have no justification in Islam. These ulema [council of clerics] are just telling lies to the people," said Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, a reformist scholar and popular television preacher.

    "But they have become stronger, because they have street power behind them, and the liberal forces are weak and divided. If it continues like this it could result in the destruction of Pakistan."

    Ghamidi, 59, is the only religious scholar to publicly oppose the blasphemy laws since the assassination of the Punjab governor, Salmaan Taseer, on 4 January. He speaks out at considerable personal risk.

    Ghamidi spoke to the Guardian from Malaysia, where he fled with his wife and daughters last year after police foiled a plot to bomb their Lahore home. "It became impossible to live there," he said.

    Their fears were well founded: within months Taliban gunmen assassinated Dr Farooq Khan, a Ghamidi ally also famous for speaking out, at his clinic in the north-western city of Mardan.

    The scholar's troubles highlight the shrinking space for debate in Pakistan, where Taseer's death has emboldened the religious right, prompting mass street rallies in favour of his killer, Mumtaz Qadri.

    Liberal voices have been marginalised; many fear to speak out. Mainstream political parties have crumbled, led by the ruling Pakistan People's party, which declared it will never amend the blasphemy law.

    Sherry Rehman, a PPP parliamentarian who proposed changes to the legislation, was herself charged with blasphemy this week. Since Taseer's death she has been confined to her Karachi home after numerous death threats, some issued publicly by clerics.

    Although other Islamic scholars share Ghamidi's views on blasphemy, none dared air them so forcefully. "Ghamidi is a voice of reason in a babble of noises seemingly dedicated to irrationality," said Ayaz Amir, an opposition politician and opinion columnist.

    Ghamidi's voice stands out because he attacks the blasphemy law on religious grounds. While secular critics say it is abused to persecute minorities and settle scores, Ghamidi says it has no foundation in either the Qur'an or the Hadith – the sayings of the prophet Muhammad. "Nothing in Islam supports this law," he said.

    Ghamidi deserted the country's largest political party, Jamaat-e-Islami, to set up his own school of religious teaching. He came to public attention through a series of television shows on major channels. They were cancelled due to opposition from the mullahs, he said. "They told the channels there would be demonstrations if I wasn't taken off air."

    Three years ago gunmen fired a pistol into the mouth of the editor of Ghamidi's magazine; last year the police foiled a plot to bomb his home and school. Now the school is closed.

    The core problem, Ghamidi said, was the alliance between Pakistan's "establishment" – code for the military – and Islamist extremists it uses to fight in Kashmir and Afghanistan. "They are closely allied," he said.

    The blasphemy debate has exposed painful rifts in Pakistani society. One Ghamidi follower said his father, a British-educated engineer, called him an infidel for attacking the controversial law. "Our society is tearing itself apart," he said.

    Tariq Dhamial, a lawyer representing Mumtaz Qadri, said more than 800 lawyers had offered to represent the self-confessed killer. "Everyone is behind Qadri. Doctors, teachers, labourers, even police – they believe he did the right thing," Dhamial said.Dhamial said the police intended to hold Qadri's trial in jail but the lawyers wanted it heard in open court. The latest hearing is due next Tuesday.

    Even when out of Pakistan, Ghamidi features on television shows by phone, often outwitting extremist clerics with his deep knowledge of the Qur'an. But he eschews terms such as "liberal".

    "I am neither Islamist nor secular. I am a Muslim and a democrat," he said. But even allies question whether religious argument alone can win the sulphurous blasphemy debate.

    "When you talk about religion, you only provoke the forces of reaction who become more intolerant. Then governments become frightened and retreat,"

    said Amir. "Ghamidi's is a voice for the converted. But that won't solve our problem."
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #1 - January 21, 2011, 03:05 PM

    I totally believe there are some external factors that are trying hard to keep Pakistan in extremist idiology. I have met many mullah's during my life in Pakistan, but they would never go on killing spree, killing other muslims even if they have extreme idiology.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #2 - January 21, 2011, 03:05 PM

    Depressing.
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #3 - January 21, 2011, 03:16 PM

    Ghamidi spoke to the Guardian from Malaysia, where he fled with his wife and daughters last year after police foiled a plot to bomb their Lahore home. "It became impossible to live there," he said.


    When I read the first few sentences of this article I thought, 'I hope he has good protection / doesn't get killed soon', then I read the above, he's already been hounded out.

    Pakistan should be renamed Takfiristan.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #4 - January 21, 2011, 03:23 PM

    I totally believe there are some external factors that are trying hard to keep Pakistan in extremist idiology. I have met many mullah's during my life in Pakistan, but they would never go on killing spree, killing other muslims even if they have extreme idiology.


    I sort of agree, I think all this shit about Pakistan being the centre of 'terrorism' and supporting 'terrorists' to justify (well try to) attacking/invading Pakistan.
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #5 - January 21, 2011, 03:25 PM

    I totally believe there are some external factors that are trying hard to keep Pakistan in extremist idiology. I have met many mullah's during my life in Pakistan, but they would never go on killing spree, killing other muslims even if they have extreme idiology.


    What do you think the external factors are?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #6 - January 21, 2011, 03:27 PM

    I sort of agree, I think all this shit about Pakistan being the centre of 'terrorism' and supporting 'terrorists' to justify (well try to) attacking/invading Pakistan.


    Who is it? Americans? Indians? Zionists? Ethiopians?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #7 - January 21, 2011, 03:27 PM

    Nobody wants to invade Pakistan.  If there are external factors stirring up extremism in Pakistan, they are not acting with a pro-western agenda.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #8 - January 21, 2011, 03:40 PM

    What do you think the external factors are?


    Someone sent me this article in email. It is in Urdu. I am not sure if it is a real story or fabricated one:

    http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/8158/att00001vt.jpg
    http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1193/att00002y.jpg
    http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9366/att00003ai.jpg

    Anyways, to summarize it, some pakistani who was living in London was invited by his British friend to a road trip. They drove for few hours and went into a castle which was out of no where. It was highly secured area. They were allowed in after identity verification. The castle itself was much further in (the security was on the boundry walls)

    When they went in, he found many rooms, full of teachers and students just like a madarsa in Pakistan or Arab countries. They all sound like same as madarsa students in Pakistan and teachers sounded like moulvi's. Also dressed like hard core madarsa people. Anyways, when he took further interst and tried to understand what they were actually doing other then reciting quran and hadiths, they were being trained to become mullahs. Any they were all actually white Britishers. And they can easily taken as someone from Northern Pakistan if they lead prayers in Pakistani mosque. They were trained to have full knowledge of accents. What their ultimate goal was to keep muslims busy with prayers and hadiths (not even quran), so that they don't find much time for intellegent activities.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #9 - January 21, 2011, 03:49 PM

    I sort of agree, I think all this shit about Pakistan being the centre of 'terrorism' and supporting 'terrorists' to justify (well try to) attacking/invading Pakistan.

    To clarify - you are actually being serious, right? You are not trolling, are you?
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #10 - January 21, 2011, 03:53 PM

    Yes I'm being serious.

    Nobody wants to invade Pakistan.  If there are external factors stirring up extremism in Pakistan, they are not acting with a pro-western agenda.


    Having the ONLY muslim country with nukes weakened possibly even divided does suit someone's agenda. And the head of the Pakistan army agrees:

    Quote
    the normally aloof and soft-spoken general ranted for hours on the subject of irreconcilable U.S.-Pakistan differences in a session with a group of Pakistani journalists.

    The two countries' "frames of reference" regarding regional security "can never be the same," he said, according to news accounts. Calling Pakistan America's "most bullied ally," Kayani said that the "real aim of U.S. strategy is to de-nuclearize Pakistan."


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/31/AR2010123103890.html

    Who is it? Americans? Indians? Zionists? Ethiopians?




    I don't think its any of them and I don't think there is any direct involvement but I'm sure western politicians/NATO know that trying to stabilise Afghanistan is resulting in destabilising Pakistan, and tell me what is more of a threat to the world, a nuclear armed country that's a failed state or a bunch of illiterates with AK47s? Hence the media frenzy about Pakistan, just like Iraq prior to the invasion.............
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #11 - January 21, 2011, 03:57 PM

    Having a nuclear armed state in the grip of Islamic fundies is contrary to the West's agenda. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #12 - January 21, 2011, 03:58 PM

    I am not sure if it is a real story or fabricated one


     015
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #13 - January 21, 2011, 04:00 PM

    Muddy & Aph - you are seriously telling me you are surprised there are so many crazy fuckwit Muslims in Muslim countries like Pakistan?

    Have you guys been living under a stone the last 20 years?

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #14 - January 21, 2011, 04:05 PM

    Having a nuclear armed state in the grip of Islamic fundies is contrary to the West's agenda.  


    But its a reason to invade Pakistan. More Pakistani soldiers have died coz of this war than American soldiers have in Iraq AND Afghanistan, yet the Pak army isn't still doing enough  Roll Eyes Its NATO that can't stop the Taliban in Afghanistan and that is somehow Pakistan's fault. Maybe they should look at their own failures instead of pinning the blame on someone else!  
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #15 - January 21, 2011, 04:05 PM

    When I read the first few sentences of this article I thought, 'I hope he has good protection / doesn't get killed soon', then I read the above, he's already been hounded out.

    Pakistan should be renamed Takfiristan.


     let the cultural revolution begin.  The question is when will Pakistan start externalizing all this.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #16 - January 21, 2011, 04:07 PM

    Quote
    But its a reason to invade Pakistan


    Nobody wants to invade Pakistan.  Afghanistan's been bother enough, the last thing the West wants to do is take on another basket case of a country.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #17 - January 21, 2011, 04:08 PM

    Muddy & Aph - you are seriously telling me you are surprised there are so many crazy fuckwit Muslims in Muslim countries like Pakistan?

    Have you guys been living under a stone the last 20 years?




    I'm surprised at the level of violence in Pakistan, not the number of fundies there. My family come from 1 of the most conservative regions of Pakistan (Azad Kashmir) yet there is none of this suicide bombings and stuff there, so it does make me wonder............
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #18 - January 21, 2011, 04:10 PM

    Please don't put me in the same sentence as Aph about conspiracy theories. Anyways, I think it is just a possibility (like 0.001% or something), but still possible.

    About fuckwit muslims, I lived 22 years of my life in pk, and I have seen all different kinds of extremist mullah's, but they do not go in killing spree. (Yes, most of them will issues fatwas against Ahmedi's and also against other sects, but killing a mullah isn't something a mullah would do, the ones I know at least.)

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #19 - January 21, 2011, 04:18 PM

    Someone sent me this article in email. It is in Urdu. I am not sure if it is a real story or fabricated one:

    http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/8158/att00001vt.jpg
    http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1193/att00002y.jpg
    http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9366/att00003ai.jpg

    Anyways, to summarize it, some pakistani who was living in London was invited by his British friend to a road trip. They drove for few hours and went into a castle which was out of no where. It was highly secured area. They were allowed in after identity verification. The castle itself was much further in (the security was on the boundry walls)

    When they went in, he found many rooms, full of teachers and students just like a madarsa in Pakistan or Arab countries. They all sound like same as madarsa students in Pakistan and teachers sounded like moulvi's. Also dressed like hard core madarsa people. Anyways, when he took further interst and tried to understand what they were actually doing other then reciting quran and hadiths, they were being trained to become mullahs. Any they were all actually white Britishers. And they can easily taken as someone from Northern Pakistan if they lead prayers in Pakistani mosque. They were trained to have full knowledge of accents. What their ultimate goal was to keep muslims busy with prayers and hadiths (not even quran), so that they don't find much time for intellegent activities.



    Et tu, muddy?


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #20 - January 21, 2011, 04:19 PM

    Yes I'm being serious.

    Have you ever considered the possibility that your judgement is possibly skewed by a personal bias you might have?
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #21 - January 21, 2011, 04:21 PM

    I don't think its any of them and I don't think there is any direct involvement but I'm sure western politicians/NATO know that trying to stabilise Afghanistan is resulting in destabilising Pakistan, and tell me what is more of a threat to the world, a nuclear armed country that's a failed state or a bunch of illiterates with AK47s? Hence the media frenzy about Pakistan, just like Iraq prior to the invasion.............


    Okey dokey.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #22 - January 21, 2011, 04:22 PM

    Nobody wants to invade Pakistan.  Afghanistan's been bother enough, the last thing the West wants to do is take on another basket case of a country.


    The war has cost Pakistan around $35 billion, I don't know how much has been given in 'aid' to Pakistan but I don't think its that much, the Chinese have also been more helpful financially. so much being a "basket case" of the west. Seeing as both sides don't like each other, how about the 'west' just keeps it beak out of Pakistan? I'd appreciate it that and so would most Pakistanis  Afro
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #23 - January 21, 2011, 04:24 PM

    Please don't put me in the same sentence as Aph about conspiracy theories. Anyways, I think it is just a possibility (like 0.001% or something), but still possible.



    I don't think any of my 'conspiracies' can be as bad as:

    Quote
    they were being trained to become mullahs. Any they were all actually white Britishers. And they can easily taken as someone from Northern Pakistan if they lead prayers in Pakistani mosque. They were trained to have full knowledge of accents. What their ultimate goal was to keep muslims busy with prayers and hadiths (not even quran), so that they don't find much time for intellegent activities.


     Roll Eyes
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #24 - January 21, 2011, 04:26 PM

    I'm surprised at the level of violence in Pakistan, not the number of fundies there. My family come from 1 of the most conservative regions of Pakistan (Azad Kashmir) yet there is none of this suicide bombings and stuff there, so it does make me wonder............


    Muslims have been killing Muslims almost since Pakistan's inception. In fact there has rarely been a long period in Pakistan's history when some Muslims were not persecuting and killing other Muslims. (Lets leave non Muslims out of it for now)



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #25 - January 21, 2011, 04:28 PM

    The question is when will Pakistan start externalizing all this.


    It already is, and has been for a long time. Witness the Mumbai attacks and other assaults on India, Pakistan exporting Jamaat-e-Islami / Tableeegi Jamaati / Maududi Islam, to say nothing of Lashkar-e-Tayibba and safe havens in general for jehadis - virtually every plot has a Pakistan connection, its the epicentre of the phenomenon.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #26 - January 21, 2011, 04:30 PM

    Have you ever considered the possibility that your judgement is possibly skewed by a personal bias you might have?


    My judgement is based on a long love affair with the pak military although its declined recently but its still there  grin12 I'd rather have Pakistan become even closer to China. They've helped Pakistan more than the US---and they won't be around in the region for much longer  parrot
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #27 - January 21, 2011, 04:31 PM

    Muslims have been killing Muslims almost since Pakistan's inception. In fact there has rarely been a long period in Pakistan's history when some Muslims were not persecuting and killing other Muslims. (Lets leave non Muslims out of it for now)





    If that's in reference to the crimes committed by Pakistan in Bangladesh then I agree.
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #28 - January 21, 2011, 04:31 PM

    Also, I repeat, I am not implying that the story is correct. It is just a possibility.

    But on the other hand if you think Britian is completely innocent, you are denying the fact that Britain captured India/Pakistan for many years along with many other countries.

    Admin of following facebook pages and groups:
    Islam's Last Stand (page)
    Islam's Last Stand (group)
    and many others...
  • Re: Islamic Scholar Attacks Pakistan's Blasphemy Laws
     Reply #29 - January 21, 2011, 04:32 PM

    so much being a "basket case" of the west.


    basket case

    An infirm or failing person or thing - unable to properly function. Originally this referred to soldiers who had lost arms and legs and had to be carried by others. More recently it has been used to denounce any failing organisation or scheme and is rarely applied to people.


    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/56500.html


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

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