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Theme Changer

 Topic: A better Quran

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  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #30 - March 18, 2011, 09:19 AM


    yes.. female Vulva  means  a crack in the wall  and  this wall is  female..

    Allah is a Arabic Rapper., Allah couldn't find better Arabic word, better language or a better messenger to get his message out to humanity..

    Stupidity of these people have no limits..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #31 - March 18, 2011, 10:40 AM

    Yes, I saw it.  I was considering making a video reply to his first response but it didn't seem worth it.  The first response says "When modern soldiers take over they rape the women, this is normal, Allah ruled that we must feed and clothe our victims".  I am certain this is not HIS opinion so have written and explained it 3 or 4 times giving him the opportunity to retract, he hasn't taken it so now he is fucked.

    As for the 2nd response.  He says it means "breach/fault".  That's deceptive.  He's trying to claim the one meaning of fault "To be in error/imperfect" rather than "a whopping great gap".  I intend to quote his earlier video (his first one) in which he says

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fn87Yk92-4&t=263

    "Farj means opening, gap, or breach" and
    "Private parts.  Part or parts of a person that is indecent to expose: Opening, split, cleft, and hence a flaw or defect"
    "Farj is used in that sense, something indecent to expose"

    Funny.  The word doesn't MEAN "indecent to expose".  The conclusion that it is indecent to exposed is reached because FARJ means "gap".  The Quran literally says Maryam "guarded her gaps" which is what in my video I said is "somewhat unrefined".  The Quran could have said "Had not had sexual contact".

    Can someone merge this deviation onto
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14019.50

    I'd like to keep this thread on topic.  I think it could make a good website.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #32 - March 18, 2011, 03:52 PM

    Another case

    Verses 91:01-02
    By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour; By the Moon as she follows him (the Sun)

    Problem:
    Gives the impression that the Moon follows the Sun, i.e. that they are both orbiting the Earth. Ibn Kathir gives two explanations, one is that the Moon literally does follow the Sun, the other is that this is referring to the new crescent Moon (Hilal)

    Solution:
    State explicitly that this is a crescent Moon.  Then we know that this is related to a specific time of the month.

    Before:
    By the Sun and his splendour; By the Moon as she follows him (the Sun)
    After:
    By the Sun and his splendour; By the crescent Moon as she follows him.



    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #33 - March 18, 2011, 04:40 PM

    I have just bought TheBetterQuran.com - I shall put together a small site with this stuff in.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #34 - March 18, 2011, 08:09 PM

    Sounds good TR!

    Maybe one way to find good candidates are any verse where the translators have bracketed interpolations based on tafsir or wishful thinking, or where the translators disagree with each other on what it means. The book the folks here translated has some examples of obscure verses like 20:96 and 38:84 in section 4.6 & 4.7 (though playing Allah's advocate, 3:7 seems to say only Allah knows the hidden meaning of some verses - very cunning!).

    http://councilofexmuslims.com/docs/My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran/My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran-en-latest.pdf

    Your example 18:86 is a key one as it's so controversial. Some translators like to add various interpolations such as "he found it [as if] it set".

    I'll hazard an attempt for 18:86 (I almost wish I'd never seen this verse!) and hopefully Hassan or someone can correct / improve it? It might be overcomplicated for the purpose of your website though, so I dunno if it's better to just include one of these suggested changes for each verse (assuming any of them are acceptable) and remove some of the detail.

    It's hard to improve the first part of the verse without saying "if it really means x, a better solution would have been to say this; if it really means y, ...", so I'll just use the most popular interpretation (that it means he went to the west and east).

    [I can't paste the underlining and bold from the transliteration but that would need to be added if included on your site]

    Quote
    Verse: 18:86 "Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring..."
    حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِبَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُبُ فِي عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ
    Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atin

    Problem: This can be misunderstood to mean the Earth is flat, because it implies a single point at which the sun sets, and that it sets into a muddy spring.

    Solution: Supposing, for example, that it is actually describing a journey to the west, and a view of sunset looking out to sea. Any or all of the following would have made that meaning clearer:
    1.Remove alshshamsi ("of the sun") since al maghriba ("the setting place") on its own often means the west elsewhere in the Qur'an and replace wajadaha ("he found it") with wajada alshshamsa ("he found the sun").
    2.Insert kaanna ("as if") before (or after?) taghrubu ("it set"); or
    3.Replace fee ("in") with waraa ("behind")

    New verse: 18:86 "Till, when he reached the west, he found the sun going down behind a muddy spring..."
    حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ الْمَغْرِبَ  وَجَدَ الشَّمْسَ تَغْرُبُ وَرَاء عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ
    Hatta itha balagha almaghriba wajada alshshamsa taghrubu waraa AAaynin hami-atin



    Here's an attempt for 18:90 too:

    Quote
    Verse: 18:90"Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom."
    حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَطْلِعَ الشَّمْسِ وَجَدَهَا تَطْلُعُ عَلَى قَوْمٍ لَّمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُم مِّن دُونِهَا سِتْرًا
    Hatta itha balagha matliAAa alshshamsi wajadaha tatluAAu AAala qawmin lam najAAal lahum min dooniha sitran

    Problem: See problem with 18:86 above. If, for example, it means he reached the east in 18:90, Allah could have made it much clearer. In particular, everywhere else in the Qur'an where west is mentioned, mashriq is used to mean the east, and al matliAA ("the rising place") is not used anywhere else in the Qur'an to mean east (and in the sunni hadith it is only used with the literal meanings).

    Solution:
    1. Replace matliAAa with al mashriqa. Also replace tatluAAu ("it rising") with tashruqu (which also means "it rising") to maintain aesthetics since just as matliAA is derived from the former verb, mashriq is derived from the latter.
    2. Remove alshshamsi ("of the sun") since al mashriqa on its own often means the east and replace wajadaha ("he found it") with wajada alshshamsa ("he found the sun").

    New verse: "Till, when he reached the east, he found the sun rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter therefrom."
    حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ الْمَشْرِقَ وَجَدَ تَـشْـرُقُ عَلَى قَوْمٍ لَّمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُم مِّن دُونِهَا سِتْرًا         
    Hatta itha balagha almashriqa wajada alshshamsa tashruqu AAala qawmin lam najAAal lahum min dooniha sitran



    Hopefully someone will confirm / correct / improve the above. There must be even clearer, yet suitably poetic ways of completely rewording these verses so it didn't reinforce flat earth, geocentric beliefs and make it look man-made today, but at least these minor changes would have helped.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #35 - March 19, 2011, 03:41 AM

    I have just bought TheBetterQuran.com - I shall put together a small site with this stuff in.


    Would you like us to participate and provide poignent examples of how the Qur'an be improved? Surah 65, Verse 4 (which gives licence for Muslims to marry pre-pubescent girls) certainly needs to be redacted and altered.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #36 - March 19, 2011, 07:41 AM

    Klingschor, write an example here using the suggested format.  Change as little as possible.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #37 - March 19, 2011, 11:20 AM

    VERSE: Surah 65, Ayah 4 (Pickthal Translation): “And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.”

    PROBLEM: This verse gives tactic consent for marriage to pre-pubescent girls.

    SOLUTION: Remove “along with those who have it not”.

    NEW VERSE:And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.”
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #38 - March 19, 2011, 11:23 AM

    Klingschor, write an example here using the suggested format.  Change as little as possible.


    Is that what you meant?
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #39 - March 19, 2011, 11:28 AM

    Yes, very good!

    I'd input it as follows to include post menopausal women Smiley
    and those who have it not -> and those who's have ended

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #40 - March 19, 2011, 11:34 AM

    This is too big, Rashman - I'd throw out most of the bloody Qur'an.



    Every single refenence to the Supernatural needs to go.

    Every single ahistorical narrative needs to go.

    Every single factually incorrect statement needs to go.

    Every single logical fallacy needs to go.

    Every single illogical or outdated moral and legal injunction needs to go.



    That's most of the Qur'an, Rashman.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #41 - March 27, 2011, 12:07 AM

    Klingschor : Ali says that 65:4 means
    "And those who no longer expect menstruation"

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #42 - March 27, 2011, 12:20 AM

    Hi everyone

    http://TheBetterQuran.com

    The main page briefly explains the aim.  You can then click the main link to see a list of chapters with suggested changes.  Click a verse to see a list of candidates for improvement.  Then click on a "case" to see the details.

    The list is probably going to remain short, remember we only need ONE possible improvement to show the Quran is imperfect so I intend to keep the quality of cases as high as possible - otherwise people will see the weakest claim, laugh and then leave.

    Please keep them coming!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #43 - March 27, 2011, 12:20 AM

    Klingschor : Ali says that 65:4 means
    "And those who no longer expect menstruation"


    It does, but in addition to those who haven't got menses. I.e.:

    And for such of your women as despair of menstruation

    That means those who no longer expect menstruation. Whereas:

    along with those who have it not

    Means those who don't menstruate for whatever reason, which presumably includes young age. Nevertheless, one has to consider this along with Q 4:6:

    until they reach the age of marrying, that is, until they have become eligible for it through puberty or [legal] age, which, according to al-Shāfi‘ī, is the completion of fifteen years -- Jalalayn

    It is possible for someone to have reached puberty but not to have begun menstruation.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #44 - March 27, 2011, 12:22 AM

    Ah yes, I hadn't read far enough along the sentence.  It clearly does say that you can fuck children.  Thanks Zebedee, I shall add it.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #45 - March 27, 2011, 12:26 AM

    Ah yes, I hadn't read far enough along the sentence.  It clearly does say that you can fuck children.  Thanks Zebedee, I shall add it.


    no probs  Afro
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #46 - March 27, 2011, 12:41 AM

    http://thebetterquran.com/Cases/View/25

    Come on guys, let's be having them! Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #47 - March 27, 2011, 11:40 AM

    I particularly liked this one, simply by adding the word "Hilal" it removes all hints of a geocentric universe Smiley

    http://thebetterquran.com/Cases/View/23

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #48 - March 27, 2011, 09:05 PM

    Less repetition. No endless threats of torturing with boiling water and burning off skins and whatelse.

    That would be the single most important improvement in this already "perfect"," inimitable" book.

    I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #49 - March 27, 2011, 09:08 PM

    You are outlining what would make it "nicer."  You have to accept the fact that god might exist, and this god might be an utter bastard, in which case the Quran's repetitive threats of endless torture are just about perfect.

    We need objective improvements.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #50 - March 27, 2011, 09:22 PM

    Hint: 6/101 (saahibah) It suggests Allah is male.

    I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #51 - March 28, 2011, 09:27 AM

    I'll hazard an attempt for 18:86 (I almost wish I'd never seen this verse!) and hopefully Hassan or someone can correct / improve it?


    Looks fine to me - good job  Afro - you just forgot to put Shams in the second verse and you can also use talaa' as well as sharaqa i.e.


    حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ الْمَغْرِبَ  وَجَدَ الشَّمْسَ تَغْرُبُ وَرَاء عَيْنٍ حَمِئَةٍ


    حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ الْمَشْرِقَ وَجَدَ الشَّمْسَ تَـشْـرُقُ (تطلع) عَلَى قَوْمٍ لَّمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُم مِّن دُونِهَا سِتْرًا         


    However I think it would be best to stick to English and just point out where the Qur'an was confusing/misleading/unclear etc... and suggest alternatives in ENGLISH.

    Doing it in Arabic is a big task that would really require a high degree of proficiency - not simply because it will come under heavy scrutiny - but doing that imho is just burdening yourself with something that actually does not add to what you are doing, which is to point out where the Qur'an really could have been much better - and that is the real strength of this.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #52 - March 28, 2011, 09:36 AM

    Perhaps for now I will remove the Arabic part of the pages.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #53 - March 28, 2011, 10:06 AM

    Thanks Hassan, I really appreciate it, and good to know!

    How about 3:7, TR? Ironically, this is the verse that says there are clear and ambiguous verses, yet it is regarded by some as having one of the biggest ambiguities (and a controversial and important one at that) in the Qur'an.

    Here's a quote from this Muslim site which talks about the ambiguous (mutashabih) verses:

    Quote
    Verse 7 of chapter 3: Amazingly part of the verse that divides the Qur’an into clear and unclear verses is also one of the most controversial unclear verses. As the ambiguity in this verse is related to our discussion, we shall explain.

    The Almighty Allah in part of verse 7 chapter 3 states:

    “and none knows its hidden meaning save Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge (they) say: We believer in it.”

    If there is a comma and hence we pause after ‘Allah’, then it means only Allah knows the meaning of the unclear Verses, whereas if there is no comma after Allah and the term ‘and ‘after Allah is a coordinating conjunction, then it means Allah as well as those who are firmly grounded in knowledge know the meaning of Unclear Verses.

    The scholars of the Qur’an hold three different views for recitation of the above verse

    1. Recitation of Pause: (Majority of the Sunni scholars)

    2. Recitation of Conjunction : (Majority of the Shia scholars)

    3. Both Recitation are correct: (some scholars from the both sides)

    We agree with the second view that the term ‘and ‘in the verse is for coordinating conjunction. In addition to the prophetic tradition and that of Ahlul Bait (A.S) we can suggest the following reasons for the preference of the second view:

    • There are many verses in the Qur’an that confirm ‘people of knowledge’ know the meanings of the unclear verses. Consider these verses: (29:49, and 16:43, 22:7)

    • The Qur’an is the book of guidance. How could Allah command man to reflect on the Qur’an whilst he is unable to understand quite a big portion of it?

    • The expression of ‘and those who are grounded in knowledge’ obviously shows a preference for those learned people over others. That means they have obtained type of knowledge that other don’t.

    • The result of the first view is to suggest that even the Prophet does not know the meaning of the unclear verses! Would it be possible for a Muslim to hold this view?

    • Throughout the Islamic history many Muslims scholars whether Shia or Sunni have interpreted the entire Qur’an



    To illustrate that even modern translators disagree:
    "...None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein;..." (Pickhthall)

    "...But no one knows its true interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge. They say, `We believe in it, it is all (- the basic and decisive verses as well as the allegorical ones) from our Lord.'..." (Amatul Rahman Omar)

    There's lots of discussion on which is correct on the web.

    I don't know how best to put this in your format, but you're very good with words so I'll just give you the info you need in this case!

    Certain types of mutashabih verses provide a lot of potential cases for your site.

    btw, perhaps you could do something like make the site logo a link back to the home page? Basically some way to go back up if you arrive directly from google or wherever onto one of the case pages. Otherwise we have to edit the url in the address bar.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #54 - March 28, 2011, 10:25 AM

    That was an excellent example, oh the irony Smiley

    http://thebetterquran.com/Cases/View/26

    I shall add back-links too.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #55 - March 28, 2011, 10:41 AM

    This is slightly tongue in cheek, but makes the point however you look at it.

    Verse: 4:34
    Problem: It sounds like God is ordering husbands to beat their wives in certain circumstances.
    Solution: Make it clear that a husband must never beat his wife.
    New verse: Depending on interpretation:

    1. Admonish them, then separate from them then leave them alone (using a word that clearly means "leave them alone" and does not also mean "beat") and never beat them.

    2. Admonish them, then separate from them then tap them lightly (using a word that does not also mean "beat" and expressly using the word lightly) and never beat them.
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #56 - March 28, 2011, 10:42 AM

    Hassan, I already have a 4:34
    http://thebetterquran.com/Cases/ChapterSummary/4

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #57 - March 28, 2011, 10:44 AM

    Oooops! lol
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #58 - March 28, 2011, 10:47 AM

    Just change the "4" at the end to see what I have in each chapter

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: A better Quran
     Reply #59 - March 28, 2011, 10:51 AM

    That was an excellent example, oh the irony Smiley

    http://thebetterquran.com/Cases/View/26

    I shall add back-links too.


    Cool, btw, there's one or 2 minor things maybe worth modifying: In original text 1, maybe you should consider replacing "Say" with "They say". That's what the arabic word means (3rd person plural). People unfamiliar with arabic and the controversy may look at this phrasing and not see any ambiguity (without punctuation) and that original text 2 is the obvious correct meaning. They might think that since sentences that start "Say" are generally commands, and the following words are clearly not a command, then text 1 is obviously incorrect. They may think you're just inventing an ambiguity due to your lack of knowledge.

    For the same reason it might be worth adding a few words in the problem part to make clear this is a well known disagreement among Muslim scholars, not just your invention.
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