Existing theory of ex-Muslims

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- Mount A Bison
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #60 - March 16, 2011, 02:02 AM

z
- Ishina
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #61 - March 16, 2011, 02:04 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 02:01 AM
That video is much too long. Distill its contents for me.

Ok: You're wrong.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Alex Lam Meem
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #62 - March 16, 2011, 02:16 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 02:02 AM
I don't know what you is talking. Suppose you tell me Vodka.

OK. I agree with you that more often than not, (with exception of all ex-Muslims on the forum, except MA Bison) people choose the worldview they like, not the one that passed all the tests of logic and reason. I don't want to argue about that, since you're 95% correct.

What I am saying is, that when it comes to leaving the best deen in the world (AKA Al-Islam), people's interest in other theories is kindled by desires. They do not change the belief systems only because the desires had the best of them. In that case Shaytan would have triumphed long ago. No, they become conflicted, they really don't want to breakdance in jahannam, so they think. Some are less successful in the endeavor and stick to siratulmustaqeem. Others, like Tut, think in a wrong direction, until they have a comeback or two to throw at their maker, just in case it was all true. The maker was much too smart though and said that he ain't having none of that shit, so let your feet do the talking on the day it is too late to wash your pipi 5 times.

I am really mostly repeating myself and the only reason I do this is because I had no relationship with my real grandfather.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
- deusvult
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #63 - March 16, 2011, 02:25 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 01:57 AM
By what do you mean central theorem? I don't follow. Do you believe that a man changes his belief because he takes two competing ideas, puts them under the miscroscope, tries to disprove both of them and walks away with the one that most withstands his mental assaults? Is that the process by which the average man comes to his worldview? Or is the process more akin to getting hold of the first idea that sounds plausible and running with it to the grave?

Both and neither. Central theorem is the theorem that people take ideas weigh the pros and cons, benefits, merits, etc in a reasonable but not always completely rational way, and the peripheral theorem is that people's attitudes change though taking clues and associating positive or negative attitudes with less cognitive clues such as heat, color, size, attractiveness of the presenter etc.. Both work at the simultaneously but one or the other can be more prevalent at different times, with different stimulus and different expectations of that stimulus.

I can't find the book, but I was listening recently to a philosopher who was speaking over the philosophy of science and he pointed out that those who triumph the scientific method as the hallmark of rational thought and scientists stick to this method with iron rigidity are very wrong. Scientists themselves use hunches, faith, are stubborn about theories, etc. In short, to claim that people neatly march down the steps of the scientific method and arrive at a dry rational and unemotional answer is false BUT rationality does play a part and can play a big part in people's thought processes, attitudinal changes, and behavior changes.

So the atheist who says that they rationally looked at the all the arguments and coolly decided that atheism was the most logical based on some kind of Vulcan mind meld process they did is not telling the whole truth, but to say that men are predominately people of feeling with occasional sparks of rationality isn't a complete picture either.

As with almost all things, the correct answer is .... it depends.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- Ishina
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #64 - March 16, 2011, 02:31 AM

Quote from: deusvult on March 16, 2011, 02:25 AM
So the atheist who says that they rationally looked at the all the arguments and coolly decided that atheism was the most logical based on some kind of Vulcan mind meld process they did is not telling the whole truth, but to say that men are predominately people of feeling with occasional sparks of rationality isn't a complete picture either.

As with almost all things, the correct answer is .... it depends.

I just grew up and stopped believing in retarded shit.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Mount A Bison
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #65 - March 16, 2011, 02:39 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #66 - March 16, 2011, 02:45 AM

Quote
We don't know about the genesis of the cosmos or even the genesis of life.

God did it.

Religious epistemology 1

Materialism 0

Eat it suckers!

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- Alex Lam Meem
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #67 - March 16, 2011, 03:00 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 02:39 AM
@Alex

But I don't know that we are saying different things.

This is why I rarely speak to you at length anymore. 'Tis because I have about as much fun drinking vodka shots with a mirror as I have "locking horns" with you. It has nothing to do with your age. I don't discriminate geriatrics. You make too much sense for my taste, though majority may call it madness. The #1 reason I bother to read your posts is for their literary value and #2 - occasional joke. Just contradict me with some good arguments once in a while, you horny herbivore!.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
- Mount A Bison
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #68 - March 16, 2011, 03:08 AM

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- Mount A Bison
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #69 - March 16, 2011, 03:17 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #70 - March 16, 2011, 03:25 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 16, 2011, 03:08 AM
@Deusvult

We are on the same wavelength. Or at any event we are past the primitive conception of human nature. Have you read Mark Twain's What Is Man?. Violently recommended. Twain maintians that the moving springs of men are seldom born of the cool calculation of the reflective faculties. What makes the average person stake out a position on any subject of contention is how it makes him feel. The impulses which act on a man in the sphere traditionally carved out for the mind are no less high and noble than the motivations which make him chase after a skirt. No man joins a tribe because he spends countless hours forensically analysing their intellectual integrity. The truth seeker, like the honest politician, is a fabled creature.

The soul genuinely motivated by the truth will never stop seeking till it travels to the ends of the earth and raids every dusty monastery, every house of vice and virtue till, wearied and fatigued, it finally suffers a brain haemorrhage. The moment it falls in with a tribe is the moment it stops seeking. The godless man who says that he finds atheism more credible has in nine cases out of ten never tried to apply the same stringent test to atheism as he has to religion. He never tires of looking for errors in religion but very seldom shines the same torch on his own system of thought. A man converts because in the first instance something in him clicks, masses of endorphins are released and off he goes running after that Good Feeling. Whatever support there is for the position newly adopted is cobbled together later. The gut decides, the brain opines.

Take the vexed issue of organ donation. Why is there in every enlightened country despite endless government appeals a small pool of registered donors? Most people accept that a man who crosses over to the other side and joins the Choir Invisible no longer needs his organs. Probably. Most agree also that it's in their best self-interest for as many people as possible to be registered for when the gloomy day comes when their own kidneys refuse to process ten bottles of whiskey per day and throw in the towel prematurely. Yet thousands die each year languishing on the waiting list. Why? Emotion. Organ donation is a morbid enterprise. No healthy person wants to think about giving up the ghost although no other event in his life is more uncontestably certain. When a man has plenty of beer in the fridge, a shiny four by four in the driveway and a hot babe on his knee, who wants to think about The Grim Reaper?

Does that mean I reject the concept of rationality outright? No, I do believe in such a thing as discriminating thought. My contention is only that this discriminating faculty is not the driving impulse. It is only the clothes in which we garb the ideas to which our emotions gravitate.

I knew if I gave you an inch you'd run a mile.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- Mount A Bison
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #71 - March 16, 2011, 03:35 AM

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #72 - March 16, 2011, 03:46 AM

Quote
Is that an attempt at humour? Fascinating. When you are typing such things do you think it is uproariously funny? That's a genuine question. I observe that your conventional response is to make facile jokes like the footbal analogy which I proceed to dynamite and then you carry on like nothing's happened and make another facile remark without acknowledging the folly of the last. Don't consider this an insult because my insults are more colourful. I just want to know where these compulsive tics come from.

I await your response.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- Alex Lam Meem
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #73 - March 16, 2011, 03:56 AM

I like it, but we both know that flirting is unnecessary as we have no future beyond the forum. Two strait males in monogamous and ultra-faithful relationships? That's daft, grandpa! Also, enough with unfulfilled promises, cutie-pie.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
- Mount A Bison
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #74 - March 16, 2011, 04:01 AM

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- Mount A Bison
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #75 - March 16, 2011, 04:10 AM

Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on March 16, 2011, 03:56 AM
I like it, but we both know that flirting is unnecessary as we have no future beyond the forum. Two strait males in monogamous and ultra-faithful relationships? That's daft, grandpa! Also, enough with unfulfilled promises, cutie-pie.

Charming. But you are embarrassing me. Everyone knows that I am unfaithfully married. So why the vulgar abuse of the truth?
- Alex Lam Meem
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #76 - March 16, 2011, 04:17 AM

Right. They do, but I believe it as much as I believe another hadith that your highness is duktoor fi 'ulum ul dirham. Nite nite.

"That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #77 - March 16, 2011, 08:28 AM

Quote from: Mount A Bison on March 15, 2011, 11:52 PM
What grabs my interest is how men arrive at the truth. I don't believe there is such a thing as a truth-seeker. I believe only joy-seekers. Men seek what is temperamentally suitable and when they find what they want they stop seeking. Their critical faculties are not brought to bear with the same intensity on their new found beliefs. This says nothing about whether their convictions are right or wrong. Only that what drives him is contenting his own spirit, his inner master.

A lot of truth in this imho - unpleasant as it may be. ^
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #78 - March 16, 2011, 09:04 AM

@Mount a Bison (or MAB, as your friends apparently call you) I do think there's danger in assuming that everybody works the same as you. Effectively, if we were to all work like you, I doubt the world would be as functional a place as it is today. Differences are a beautiful thing.

I think it's interesting that most of you say that reason that played the main role. I think emotions may play a much larger role in enabling a (de)conversion than we realise.. After all, if it is so reasonable to leave a religion, and the reasoning is all we need, why isn't everyone leaving their religion, right? Clearly, there needs to be emotional space for one to start reasoning in that direction. Many people wouldn't even allow themselves to think rationally about their religion, because it's way too scary to loose comfort. And vice versa: when starting to reason about the contradictions within a religion, a whole area of emotional turmoil is being set free and it takes someone committed to work through that. So why do some people have this emotional space in the first place to start reasoning? This makes me think that emotionally, someone must have already been less than secure in their loyalty towards the religion.

Suzanne
http://www.exmuslimsurvey.org/
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #79 - March 16, 2011, 09:24 AM

Quote from: SuzanneB on March 16, 2011, 09:04 AM
I think it's interesting that most of you say that reason that played the main role. I think emotions may play a much larger role in enabling a (de)conversion than we realise.. After all, if it is so reasonable to leave a religion, and the reasoning is all we need, why isn't everyone leaving their religion, right? Clearly, there needs to be emotional space for one to start reasoning in that direction. Many people wouldn't even allow themselves to think rationally about their religion, because it's way too scary to loose comfort. And vice versa: when starting to reason about the contradictions within a religion, a whole area of emotional turmoil is being set free and it takes someone committed to work through that. So why do some people have this emotional space in the first place to start reasoning? This makes me think that emotionally, someone must have already been less than secure in their loyalty towards the religion.

Yes, I agree with this and have been saying for some time that emotional factors are important.

I also rejected Islam because of rational reasons - but only after I had overcome my emotional attachment enough to allow me to look at it rationally.

One cannot analyse rationally something one is emotionally attached to, since looking at something in a truly rational way needs a degree of detachment that most believers cannot achieve. One must start from a position of doubt - unafraid of the possibility Islam is false - and allow the facts to sway one either way.

To get to that point one has to release one's emotional grip on beliefs - and that is not achieved through purely rational argument.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #80 - March 16, 2011, 09:31 AM

Quote from: SuzanneB on March 16, 2011, 09:04 AM
@Mount a Bison (or MAB, as your friends apparently call you) I do think there's danger in assuming that everybody works the same as you. Effectively, if we were to all work like you, I doubt the world would be as functional a place as it is today. Differences are a beautiful thing.

I think it's interesting that most of you say that reason that played the main role. I think emotions may play a much larger role in enabling a (de)conversion than we realise.. After all, if it is so reasonable to leave a religion, and the reasoning is all we need, why isn't everyone leaving their religion, right? Clearly, there needs to be emotional space for one to start reasoning in that direction. Many people wouldn't even allow themselves to think rationally about their religion, because it's way too scary to loose comfort. And vice versa: when starting to reason about the contradictions within a religion, a whole area of emotional turmoil is being set free and it takes someone committed to work through that. So why do some people have this emotional space in the first place to start reasoning? This makes me think that emotionally, someone must have already been less than secure in their loyalty towards the religion.

I think Myers Briggs test shows this up. Not sure if you have seen the thread, but rather surprisingly (or unsurprisingly) the most popular by far was xNTJ amongst members here. i.e. most members tend to put emphasis on deeper reason, over & above emotional connections.

So to get to your answer I think you really need to understand why people have different personality profiles But I think its an important question, how else are we to make head-way amongst Islamicists & help them to empathise with our views?

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #81 - March 16, 2011, 09:33 AM

I haven't seen it, can you send me the link to the threat?

Suzanne
http://www.exmuslimsurvey.org/
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #82 - March 16, 2011, 10:04 AM

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=7252.msg179663#msg179663

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #83 - March 16, 2011, 10:15 AM

Thanks I'm gonna read through this. Giving the results of a personality test to a (aspiring) psychologist is like giving a bone to a hungry dog. Ok, maybe not that bad, but I'm definitely reading it.

Suzanne
http://www.exmuslimsurvey.org/
- Saif Rahman
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #84 - March 16, 2011, 10:23 AM

I put together an excel spreadsheet (I realise I am sad), of all the results on there so I could garner some %'s/graphs/piecharts with the conclusions, but cant remember where I put it. Its on a thread somewhere, if you use the search function you might be able to find it.

Anyhow let me know your thoughts and whether you agree with mine or not...

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- Saif Rahman
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #85 - March 16, 2011, 10:25 AM

btw what is your Myers Briggs personality result? Girls have a greater tendency towards ExFx

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #86 - March 16, 2011, 10:46 AM

I'm INFJ. The Career Adversor says I should be a psychologist I think some of the questions were a little problematic though..

Suzanne
http://www.exmuslimsurvey.org/
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #87 - March 16, 2011, 10:57 AM

You're a 'Protector' then - does any of this ring true?

Quote
INFJs are gentle, caring, complex and highly intuitive individuals. Artistic and creative, they live in a world of hidden meanings and possibilities. Only one percent of the population has an INFJ Personality Type, making it the most rare of all the types.

INFJs place great importance on havings things orderly and systematic in their outer world. They put a lot of energy into identifying the best system for getting things done, and constantly define and re-define the priorities in their lives. On the other hand, INFJs operate within themselves on an intuitive basis which is entirely spontaneous. They know things intuitively, without being able to pinpoint why, and without detailed knowledge of the subject at hand. They are usually right, and they usually know it. Consequently, INFJs put a tremendous amount of faith into their instincts and intuitions. This is something of a conflict between the inner and outer worlds, and may result in the INFJ not being as organized as other Judging types tend to be. Or we may see some signs of disarray in an otherwise orderly tendency, such as a consistently messy desk.

INFJs have uncanny insight into people and situations. They get "feelings" about things and intuitively understand them. As an extreme example, some INFJs report experiences of a psychic nature, such as getting strong feelings about there being a problem with a loved one, and discovering later that they were in a car accident. This is the sort of thing that other types may scorn and scoff at, and the INFJ themself does not really understand their intuition at a level which can be verbalized. Consequently, most INFJs are protective of their inner selves, sharing only what they choose to share when they choose to share it. They are deep, complex individuals, who are quite private and typically difficult to understand. INFJs hold back part of themselves, and can be secretive.

But the INFJ is as genuinely warm as they are complex. INFJs hold a special place in the heart of people who they are close to, who are able to see their special gifts and depth of caring. INFJs are concerned for people's feelings, and try to be gentle to avoid hurting anyone. They are very sensitive to conflict, and cannot tolerate it very well. Situations which are charged with conflict may drive the normally peaceful INFJ into a state of agitation or charged anger. They may tend to internalize conflict into their bodies, and experience health problems when under a lot of stress.

Because the INFJ has such strong intuitive capabilities, they trust their own instincts above all else. This may result in an INFJ stubborness and tendency to ignore other people's opinions. They believe that they're right. On the other hand, INFJ is a perfectionist who doubts that they are living up to their full potential. INFJs are rarely at complete peace with themselves - there's always something else they should be doing to improve themselves and the world around them. They believe in constant growth, and don't often take time to revel in their accomplishments. They have strong value systems, and need to live their lives in accordance with what they feel is right. In deference to the Feeling aspect of their personalities, INFJs are in some ways gentle and easy going. Conversely, they have very high expectations of themselves, and frequently of their families. They don't believe in compromising their ideals.

INFJ is a natural nurturer; patient, devoted and protective.

http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ.html

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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #88 - March 16, 2011, 11:04 AM

i personally like to believe that i came to the beliefs i hold via 'rational thought', however i must say much of my ideas do come from hunches and ideas that i just 'run with'(in a similar way to how mathematicians construct proofs: it's more just taking shit that's interesting, running with it and the summarising stuff into proofs). i wholly accept that my ideals and beliefs are incomplete(and it's why i never post in threads about morality; i'm still on the fence about that) and that god's existence being indeterminate(which is in a nutshell, what i believe) is merely a stepping stone to a bunch of problems which i haven't solved yet(and some, such as morality which i probably never will). i still like to think that i can seperate my own convictions and conveniences from my thought, and i will wholly accept that my initial godlessness was embodied with some sort of naivety(hell, i sort of cringe at my blog sometimes).

i still like to think my naivety is out of ignorance of some issues, rather than driven by personal conveniences.
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Re: Existing theory of ex-Muslims
Reply #89 - March 16, 2011, 11:04 AM

Jep.. minus the experiences of a psychic nature.

Suzanne
http://www.exmuslimsurvey.org/
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