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Theme Changer

 Topic: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.

 (Read 23619 times)
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  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #30 - March 28, 2011, 06:21 PM
    Well its like Hitchens says of course we have free will god forced it on us.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #31 - March 28, 2011, 06:22 PM
    ^Is there a verse that says humans were offered free will? I know there is one about mountains (somehow) rejecting it.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #32 - March 28, 2011, 06:30 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 06:15 PM
    I can't answer that question until you define what you mean by 'choose'.


    answer the question, and then define "choose" as you wish (if you think there's a more suitable definition other than that provided by a dictionary).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #33 - March 28, 2011, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 06:22 PM
    ^Is there a verse that says humans were offered free will? I know there is one about mountains (somehow) rejecting it.

    yes, it's the mountains verse, but no, the verse says God offered us (and the heavens/mountains) the gift of *trust*. It doesn't say the capacity to choose. But, in light of other verses, i understood this as the trust to choose to obey the Lord.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #34 - March 28, 2011, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 06:30 PM
    answer the question, and then define "choose" as you wish (if you think there's a more suitable definition other than that provided by a dictionary).


    Yes, if by choice you mean performing an action without knowledge of what caused you to perform said action. No, if by choice you mean performing an action of which I am the first cause and, therefore, ultimately responsible.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #35 - March 28, 2011, 06:44 PM
    Quote
    Yes, if by choice you mean performing an action without knowledge of what caused you to perform said action. No, if by choice you mean performing an action of which I am the first cause and, therefore, ultimately responsible.

    i like your answer. it would seem to me that you're saying, the capacity to choose does not exist, in an absolute sense.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #36 - March 28, 2011, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 06:22 PM
    ^Is there a verse that says humans were offered free will? I know there is one about mountains (somehow) rejecting it.

    We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof: but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish.
    ~ 33:72

    But there loads of contrary verses that assert the exact opposite in no uncertain terms, that Allah controls everything. There is no Free Will in Islam.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #37 - March 28, 2011, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 06:44 PM
    i like your answer.


    And which of the two do you think Islam is referring to when mentioning free will?

     
    Quote
    it would seem to me that you're saying, the capacity to choose does not exist, in an absolute sense


    Unless by choice you mean chance, then no, I don't see how it can.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #38 - March 28, 2011, 06:57 PM
    Quote
    But there loads of contrary verses that assert the exact opposite in no uncertain terms, that Allah controls everything.


    yes, indeed. But those two verses explain everything:

    76:29-30
    This is a reminder, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord.
    YET you will not, except that God wills. Lo! God is Knower, Wise.

    Meaning? Free-will is not absolute... as it is NOT independent of God's will.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #39 - March 28, 2011, 06:59 PM
    Then why call it free will?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #40 - March 28, 2011, 07:02 PM
    @prince


    Quote
    And which of the two do you think Islam is referring to when mentioning free will?

    the second one:
    No, if by choice you mean performing an action of which I am the first cause and, therefore, ultimately responsible.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #41 - March 28, 2011, 07:03 PM
    And you agree that we don't have that?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #42 - March 28, 2011, 07:09 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 06:57 PM
    yes, indeed. But those two verses explain everything:

    76:29-30
    This is a reminder, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord.
    YET you will not, except that God wills. Lo! God is Knower, Wise.

    Meaning? Free-will is not absolute... as it is NOT independent of God's will.

    Is it necessary for me to point out the overwhelming number of verses that contradict any notion of choice at an individual level, or are you aware of them?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #43 - March 28, 2011, 07:10 PM
    I think he accepts that, actually.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #44 - March 28, 2011, 07:10 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 06:59 PM
    Then why call it free will?


    Freedom in relative terms, but not in the absolute sense (as that would limit the domain of God, and hence negate Him, rendering Him no more than a Mighty Being, being limited in some sense).

    Free-will is a big topic of debate between Mutazilites and Ashirites. The Mutazilites belived man was gifted ABSOLUTE free will. Ashirites believed that man had NO free-will. The verses 76:29:30 say neither was correct. Free-will can only exist in relative terms.

    Ashirites and Mutazilites are two sub sunni sects, by the way.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #45 - March 28, 2011, 07:11 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 28, 2011, 07:09 PM
    Is it necessary for me to point out the overwhelming number of verses that contradict any notion of choice at an individual level, or are you aware of them?


    yeah, I know what verses you're talking about, but those where speaking of God as a first cause.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #46 - March 28, 2011, 07:15 PM
    So you agree that we don't have choice as was outlined above?

    Do you think Allah has such free will?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #47 - March 28, 2011, 07:16 PM
    Thing is, Islamic illogic stretches and redefines the idea of Free Will until it bears no resemblance to any practical or useful semblance of Free Will. In the end, we are no better off than being completely controlled, according to the super-special Islamic Brand™ of Free Will.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #48 - March 28, 2011, 07:17 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 07:11 PM
    yeah, I know what verses you're talking about, but those where speaking of God as a first cause.

    No, they are speaking generally, in many different contexts.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #49 - March 28, 2011, 07:54 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 07:15 PM
    So you agree that we don't have choice as was outlined above?

    yes.

    Quote
    Do you think Allah has such free will?

    No, His free will is absolute.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #50 - March 28, 2011, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 06:22 PM
    ^Is there a verse that says humans were offered free will? I know there is one about mountains (somehow) rejecting it.

     yea its already been listed but in some sense choosing free will is a catch 22.  How can one be offered the choice of having free will without having free will to make the choice?

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #51 - March 28, 2011, 08:03 PM
    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 07:54 PM
    yes.


    And you justify this with 'might is right'? God can punish us for what we aren't ultimately responsible for, just because he can?

    Quote
    No, His free will is absolute.


    What does that mean?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #52 - March 28, 2011, 08:05 PM
    I find these verses interesting:

    Q. 37:96

    وَٱللَّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ وَمَا تَعْمَلُونَ

    Allah created you and what you make/do

    The context prefers the 'make' meaning, but the verb also is used in the Qur'an to refer to actions, or 'doing' generally.

    Q. 57:22

    No affliction befalls in the earth or in yourselves, but it is in a Book, before We create it; that is easy for God;

    Seems pretty deterministic to me.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #53 - March 28, 2011, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 06:10 PM
    I knew you were going to say this, but it's the same problem with a different name. What exactly does it mean to choose? Either you do something because of xyz, in which case your action is determined, or it's just random. What else is there?


    Does everything in the world have to be either causal or random?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #54 - March 28, 2011, 08:13 PM
    Well we've had this discussion before and if I remember correctly we couldn't conceive of anything else. Made any progress?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #55 - March 28, 2011, 08:17 PM
    From what I remember I suggested that individual creativity is as much a part of the world as the causal order. In which case, free will would be the inherent creative impulse that largely defines you as a being. Ofcourse, one can always ask a further causal question, but I'm not sure it is necessary to answer that question.
    For instance, I chose to have cereal this morning rather than a fried egg - it was not random because it was a conscious choice that I made. It had a reason, but must I look for this reason outside myself, in a causal chain that stretches back to the big bang and beyond - can I not just say that the reason was myself, in myself, a manifestation of my self as it is?
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #56 - March 28, 2011, 08:19 PM
    @debunker

    Quote
    Freedom in relative terms, but not in the absolute sense (as that would limit the domain of God, and hence negate Him, rendering Him no more than a Mighty Being, being limited in some sense).


    Not sure about that. As far as I can see, God is not necessarily limited by humans having absolute free will any more than it is limited by, say, being omniscient. Hypothetically, humans may possess absolute free will while God remains unlimited, as God may simply give them free will, and abstain from interfering with it, despite the fact that he can control it completely if he chooses.

    Regardless of whether the theistic god is logically coherent in other areas, with regards to absolute or 'libertarian' free will in humans, there's no logical incompatibility. Unless you're saying that God must have absolute control over man's will too, i.e., that God must dictate man's will and choices and configure them according to His will, rather than leaving people to follow their own.

    Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 07:54 PM
    No, His free will is absolute.


    What does this mean? If God is timeless and changeless and has certain intrinsic and immutable characteristics that shape his actions and thoughts, then how can he have absolute free will? How can his decisions be absolutely free if they are ultimately caused by his attributes that he possesses whether he likes it or not? As far as I can see, the theistic God must necessarily not possess absolute free will.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #57 - March 28, 2011, 08:29 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 28, 2011, 08:17 PM
    From what I remember I suggested that individual creativity is as much a part of the world as the causal order. In which case, free will would be the inherent creative impulse that largely defines you as a being. Ofcourse, one can always ask a further causal question, but I'm not sure it is necessary to answer that question.
    For instance, I chose to have cereal this morning rather than a fried egg - it was not random because it was a conscious choice that I made. It had a reason, but must I look for this reason outside myself, in a causal chain that stretches back to the big bang and beyond - can I not just say that the reason was myself, in myself, a manifestation of my self as it is?


    I seem to remember that you agreed true creativity would have to be random?
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #58 - March 28, 2011, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on March 28, 2011, 08:19 PM

    What does this mean? If God is timeless and changeless and has certain intrinsic and immutable characteristics that shape his actions and thoughts, then how can he have absolute free will? How can his decisions be absolutely free if they are ultimately caused by his attributes that he possesses whether he likes it or not? As far as I can see, the theistic God must necessarily not possess absolute free will.


    Precisely.
  • Re: Stupid, Selfish Humanity.
     Reply #59 - March 28, 2011, 08:32 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on March 28, 2011, 08:29 PM
    I seem to remember that you agreed true creativity would have to be random?


    Perhaps I did say that, I'm not sure I would go along with that now. Random seems to suggest an incapability to choose, whereas I would think creativity is the fullest choice possible.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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