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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Which one (if any) are you more inclined to side with? (Give reasons)
  • Israel - 50 (30.5%)
  • Palestine - 114 (69.5%)
  • Total Voters: 163

 Topic: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?

 (Read 216029 times)
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  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #900 - September 08, 2015, 07:41 AM
    Quote from: gal_from_usa on September 07, 2015, 10:47 PM
    Israel isn't the only democracy in the middle east. It may be the most democratic, although it may not even be that for long--Tunisia is rapidly gaining on it; when the dust settles in the Levant, there will probably be a representative government; and as Iran normalizes relations with the United States, it will likely become more democratic, because that seems to be something the youth want--

    You really don't realize that what you are doing is trying to promote, raise a wish, a hope..  or whatever is, into truth? 
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #901 - September 08, 2015, 08:00 AM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 07:41 AM
    You really don't realize that what you are doing is trying to promote, raise a wish, a hope..  or whatever is, into truth? 


     Huh? I'm not the person responsible for the Arab Spring. I had literally nothing to do with it. And that's the movement that has been bringing democracy (and temporary instability) to the Middle East. So I don't see why you'd say that I am trying to wish democracy into fruition/promote it/wish it into existence.
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #902 - September 08, 2015, 08:14 AM
    Because however good will be this to happens(Tunisia, Iran, becoming more democratic than Israel) there are no reasons to believe it will really happens. It's wishful thinking. You are ignoring reality.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #903 - September 08, 2015, 09:13 AM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 08:14 AM
    Because however good will be this to happens(Tunisia, Iran, becoming more democratic than Israel) there are no reasons to believe it will really happens. It's wishful thinking. You are ignoring reality.


    .....I'm looking at empirical data. I've looked at four different ratings sites that use different methods, and value different things:

    http://democracyranking.org/
    http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm
    https://freedomhouse.org/
    http://www.eiu.com/public/topical_report.aspx?campaignid=Democracy0115

    And each one has Israel as a partial/incomplete/flawed democracy, and Tunisia is in the same category or one lower, and scores 20-40 countries below Israel but has moved up by a ton of places in the last 5 years.

    In terms of Iran, again, looking at projections by groups who are either relatively impartial or pro-America. Even American intelligence groups predict that Iran will become more democratic (and they, historically, err on the side of distrusting everyone).
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #904 - September 08, 2015, 10:22 AM
    Tunisia has moved up recently because it has just disposed a dictator. So it's naturally to gain a lot on those rankings. It has more to do with the fact that now there are free elections. But in terms of human rights, secularism, it is still far away from Israel or an European country and hasn't improved much. An it will be hard because this will be in conflict with core Islamic values.

    You know better that without a secular society democracy cannot develop. And now because there is no secular dictator there, Islamism has beginning to raise and secularism to decline. Look at how many Tunisians fight for ISIS, because now there are no restrictions to become radicalized as it was before. I'm sorry but I don't see any real reasons to be optimist. On the contrary looking at how most of the Islamic world was 50 years ago and how it is now, it is changing and changing for the worst. It's a fact, unfortunately.

    As about Iran, well let's get serious.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #905 - September 08, 2015, 10:37 AM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 10:22 AM
    You know better that without a secular society democracy cannot develop.


    I don't think that's exactly true. I do think it's true that democracy cannot develop in an Abrahamic-tradition theocracy. But I don't think it's true that it requires a society free of religion entirely; if there are competing theologies, increased interaction with the global community--and therefore people with different ideas, increased access to the internet and global finances, or other things that promise a better life in exchange for more integration with people who are different and their foreign ideas, I don't think it's necessary for the people to stop being religious to get a government more representative of those people's ideas.

    I also don't think democracy is inherently the best way to run society. Nor do I think that most of the countries we think of as "paragons of democracy" are actually democracies. America, for example, according to a good number of international experts, is not a democracy--it is an oligarchy. Most of our own documents (like the pledge of allegiance) call it a republic. I personally favor some form of democratic socialism, or something similar to the ideals of the Scandinavian countries.
    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #906 - September 08, 2015, 11:09 AM
    Israel is not, by any stretch, the worst and neither side is exactly above criticism. My major qualms with Israel is the fact that we (U.S.) are so deeply allied with them and provide mind-boggling amounts of financial and military support. This support should be conditional on Israel behaving. It shouldn't be used for continuing this fight with Palestine, oppressing Palestinians, or bulldozing Palestinian houses. And don't get me started on how much shit we've had to put up with from the Islamic world for our defense of Israel, no matter what indefensible thing they do.

    Yes, they both have fault, but one is supposed to be the bigger man at this point, and it's clear which one that is.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #907 - September 08, 2015, 01:58 PM
    Quote from: gal_from_usa on September 08, 2015, 10:37 AM
    But I don't think it's true that it requires a society free of religion entirely; if there are competing theologies, increased interaction with the global community--and therefore people with different ideas, increased access to the internet and global finances, or other things that promise a better life in exchange for more integration with people who are different and their foreign ideas, I don't think it's necessary for the people to stop being religious to get a government more representative of those people's ideas.

    Who said that a secular country requires a society free of religion entirely?

    Quote from: gal_from_usa on September 08, 2015, 10:37 AM
    I also don't think democracy is inherently the best way to run society. Nor do I think that most of the countries we think of as "paragons of democracy" are actually democracies. America, for example, according to a good number of international experts, is not a democracy--it is an oligarchy. Most of our own documents (like the pledge of allegiance) call it a republic. I personally favor some form of democratic socialism, or something similar to the ideals of the Scandinavian countries.

    Okay what international experts says USA is not a democracy? Because you just gave links where USA are rated highly.

    What other form of government is better than democracy? It is clearly not perfect, but what is better?
    Democratic socialism? What is that? Where do you find that? Talking about ideals, tell me gal_from_usa have you experienced socialism?
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #908 - September 08, 2015, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: lua on September 08, 2015, 11:09 AM
    Israel is not, by any stretch, the worst and neither side is exactly above criticism. My major qualms with Israel is the fact that we (U.S.) are so deeply allied with them and provide mind-boggling amounts of financial and military support. This support should be conditional on Israel behaving. It shouldn't be used for continuing this fight with Palestine, oppressing Palestinians, or bulldozing Palestinian houses. And don't get me started on how much shit we've had to put up with from the Islamic world for our defense of Israel, no matter what indefensible thing they do.

    Yes, they both have fault, but one is supposed to be the bigger man at this point, and it's clear which one that is.


    And Lua I understand you position, really do. Seeing this as a David vs Goliath.

    But the thing is, if somebody will ask me in which country I want to live between Arab countries and Israel, it's only Israel I can choose. Because no matter how worse Israel politics/actions are, the Arab countries are even more.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #909 - September 08, 2015, 02:16 PM
    Which has what, exactly, to do with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #910 - September 08, 2015, 02:20 PM
    What exactly is the point that you want to make Quod?
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #911 - September 08, 2015, 02:23 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 02:15 PM
    And Lua I understand you position, really do. Seeing this as a David vs Goliath.

    But the thing is, if somebody will ask me in which country I want to live between Arab countries and Israel, it's only Israel I can choose. Because no matter how worse Israel politics/actions are, the Arab countries are even more.


    Picking between two horrible choices does not make the lesser one defacto good nt matter how much emphasis is placed on the positives.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #912 - September 08, 2015, 02:25 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 01:58 PM
    Who said that a secular country requires a society free of religion entirely?


    Umm by the very definition of secular.... Keep in mind it's freedom of religion via government enforcement.

  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #913 - September 08, 2015, 02:27 PM
    Quote from: lua on September 08, 2015, 11:09 AM
    Israel is not, by any stretch, the worst and neither side is exactly above criticism. My major qualms with Israel is the fact that we (U.S.) are so deeply allied with them and provide mind-boggling amounts of financial and military support. This support should be conditional on Israel behaving. It shouldn't be used for continuing this fight with Palestine, oppressing Palestinians, or bulldozing Palestinian houses. And don't get me started on how much shit we've had to put up with from the Islamic world for our defense of Israel, no matter what indefensible thing they do.

    Yes, they both have fault, but one is supposed to be the bigger man at this point, and it's clear which one that is.


    This does raise a question. Could Israeli get away with it's acts without the funding and veto of the USA. I doubt it could on the same level but they would try. Yet nation which support Israeli offend do not consider this at all.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #914 - September 08, 2015, 02:34 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 02:20 PM
    What exactly is the point that you want to make Quod?

    I don't have a point to make, I simply asked a question, as this
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 02:15 PM
    And Lua I understand you position, really do. Seeing this as a David vs Goliath.

    But the thing is, if somebody will ask me in which country I want to live between Arab countries and Israel, it's only Israel I can choose. Because no matter how worse Israel politics/actions are, the Arab countries are even more.

    has absolutely nothing to do with the subject.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #915 - September 08, 2015, 02:35 PM
    Quote from: bogart on September 08, 2015, 02:23 PM
    Picking between two horrible choices does not make the lesser one defacto good nt matter how much emphasis is placed on the positives.


    Agree.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #916 - September 08, 2015, 02:42 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 08, 2015, 02:34 PM
    I don't have a point to make, I simply asked a question, as thishas absolutely nothing to do with the subject.


    The subject is Pro Israel or Pro Palestine so it does.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #917 - September 08, 2015, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 02:15 PM
    And Lua I understand you position, really do. Seeing this as a David vs Goliath.

    But the thing is, if somebody will ask me in which country I want to live between Arab countries and Israel, it's only Israel I can choose. Because no matter how worse Israel politics/actions are, the Arab countries are even more.


    I think it's an easy mistake to make (but nevertheless a mistake) for some people who swear they're for freedom and human rights and against the abusers of both to look at this situation in this way.

    Those who really care about these principles need to remember above all else that upholding them requires us to meet the opposition wherever we find it, and to remember to unequivocally denounce those who commit these human rights abuses, regardless of our personal bias, our approval of their government, whether we like their way of life more, or if they have gay pride parades or more power lines.

    Change for these bitter and cyclical conflicts won't come from expecting the most desperate of the parties to lie down and submit, or from standing back and saying they're both wrong so what're you gonna do. This will be solved in steps--even the atrocities you reference in some of these countries. But the first step is requiring the one who is standing on the other's chest to hold itself to the standards we expect of a civilized and democratic society. No other way to start breaking open the circle aside from the complete destruction of Palestine.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #918 - September 08, 2015, 02:49 PM
    Quote from: bogart on September 08, 2015, 02:25 PM
    Umm by the very definition of secular.... Keep in mind it's freedom of religion via government enforcement.



    Hmm? Be aware that she said entirely.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #919 - September 08, 2015, 03:03 PM
    Noted. Still I believe the issue is that people are equating secularism as synonymous with atheistic society. Hence why secularism is about government's role in society rather than the society completely. There are many levels within society which include religion from education to charity. One can not even study history without referencing religion and it's role in the subject society.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #920 - September 08, 2015, 03:41 PM
    Quote from: lua on September 08, 2015, 02:43 PM
    I think it's an easy mistake to make (but nevertheless a mistake) for some people who swear they're for freedom and human rights and against the abusers of both to look at this situation in this way.

    Those who really care about these principles need to remember above all else that upholding them requires us to meet the opposition wherever we find it, and to remember to unequivocally denounce those who commit these human rights abuses, regardless of our personal bias, our approval of their government, whether we like their way of life more, or if they have gay pride parades or more power lines.

    Change for these bitter and cyclical conflicts won't come from expecting the most desperate of the parties to lie down and submit, or from standing back and saying they're both wrong so what're you gonna do. This will be solved in steps--even the atrocities you reference in some of these countries. But the first step is requiring the one who is standing on the other's chest to hold itself to the standards we expect of a civilized and democratic society. No other way to start breaking open the circle aside from the complete destruction of Palestine.


    Are you saying that both that have chosen a side, did a mistake,  they are some kind of hypocrites? How can they really stand for human rights but in the same time side for Israel or Palestine because both are worse in this area? Because really I think it's wrong to think like that.

    And also siding with Israel it doesn't mean advocating for destruction of Palestine.  Remember that I am for a 2 states solution.

  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #921 - September 08, 2015, 03:51 PM
    Not what I'm saying. Maybe didn't word it well, and can't spend too much time on wording it better (I'm on my phone at work) but TL;DR version: if we want this solved, the knot has to be teased out. If you are for human rights you need to be across the board. Israel is a magnificent offender and pretty much everyone knows it. And they're also the ones with the funding and support of the most powerful nations in the world and trying to act like they are modern and above reproach.

    This conflict needs to be resolved one step at a time. First step is holding Israel accountable and holding it to the standards we hold everyone else to, because they are the ones with the power. Other steps require demands for Palestine, but that is further down the line. First thing's first.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #922 - September 08, 2015, 04:08 PM
    Rereading your post, maybe that is sort of what I am saying. Choosing to totally support Israel because you are pro human rights and they're the lesser of two evils (as in they're committing human rights offenses left and right but you think if you're in Israel you're going to be treated better than in Palestine) is pretty hypocritical. But it's not on purpose, it's an easy trap to fall into.

    Supporting human rights means even supporting the rights of those whose ideologies and situations you do not identify our sympathize with. It means at all times, in all situations. You need to speak out against every inhumane act on all sides. Period.

    The key with Israel is that money talks, and we're the ones paying the bill. We have a way to send this message that their behavior needs to change, but we use our resources to send a very different message--and the whole world is listening.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #923 - September 08, 2015, 04:37 PM
    Quote from: lua on September 08, 2015, 03:51 PM
    Not what I'm saying. Maybe didn't word it well, and can't spend too much time on wording it better (I'm on my phone at work) but TL;DR version: if we want this solved, the knot has to be teased out. If you are for human rights you need to be across the board. Israel is a magnificent offender and pretty much everyone knows it. And they're also the ones with the funding and support of the most powerful nations in the world and trying to act like they are modern and above reproach.

    This conflict needs to be resolved one step at a time. First step is holding Israel accountable and holding it to the standards we hold everyone else to, because they are the ones with the power. Other steps require demands for Palestine, but that is further down the line. First thing's first.


    So because Israel is with power  they should be first held accountable? I say both.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #924 - September 08, 2015, 05:01 PM
    When Blacks in South Africa were being subjugated in their own land and treated as second class citizens, very few tried to divert attention by pointing to human rights violations within Black South African communities or said that both sides are equally at fault. The bigger crime comes first. The fact that people are losing their homes and that Palestinian refugees will not have a home to go back to, along with the fact that they continue to increase is a very urgent matter.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #925 - September 08, 2015, 05:05 PM
    Quote from: lua on September 08, 2015, 04:08 PM
    Rereading your post, maybe that is sort of what I am saying. Choosing to totally support Israel because you are pro human rights and they're the lesser of two evils (as in they're committing human rights offenses left and right but you think if you're in Israel you're going to be treated better than in Palestine) is pretty hypocritical. But it's not on purpose, it's an easy trap to fall into.

    Supporting human rights means even supporting the rights of those whose ideologies and situations you do not identify our sympathize with. It means at all times, in all situations. You need to speak out against every inhumane act on all sides. Period.

    The key with Israel is that money talks, and we're the ones paying the bill. We have a way to send this message that their behavior needs to change, but we use our resources to send a very different message--and the whole world is listening.


    Totally support Israel....  Common Lua who do you think I am, Benjamin Netanyahu? And the thing with hypocrisy is that it goes both ways because there are those who support Palestine but when it comes of human rights they will choose Israel. So better to let the hypocrisy thing aside.

    Hmm, I have spoken only about inhumane things made by one side? Hmm, no. Just using less evil argument.

    Paying the bill thing... Well I can't argue with this.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #926 - September 08, 2015, 05:17 PM
    Quote from: AGirlWithDoubts on September 08, 2015, 05:01 PM
    When Blacks in South Africa were being subjugated in their own land and treated as second class citizens, very few tried to divert attention by pointing to human rights violations within Black South African communities or said that both sides are equally at fault. The bigger crime comes first. The fact that people are losing their homes and that Palestinian refugees will not have a home to go back to, along with the fact that they continue to increase is a very urgent matter.


    Hmm, I don't think it's about racism in this case. Let's not jump to this.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #927 - September 08, 2015, 05:22 PM
    How is it not so? Israel has explicitly stated that she is a state for the Jews and judging by the expansion of illegal settlements, it is clear that the Palestinians are an obstacle. Considering the racist anti-Arab speeches made by a number of Knesset members and Netenyahu himself, race plays a very huge part without a doubt.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #928 - September 08, 2015, 05:32 PM
    Let's not take discrimination as racism.
  • Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #929 - September 08, 2015, 05:46 PM
    Quote from: nbhb on September 08, 2015, 04:37 PM
    So because Israel is with power  they should be first held accountable? I say both.


    That's easy enough to say, but unrealistic in practice. How would you recommend we do this? What more can you do to or take away from the Palestinians that will inspire them to take the high road rather than into further despair where extremism thrives? Does it matter to you that we are not involved with Palestine but we are friends and allies and the funders of Israel?

    I thought it was a little weird that you reacted to me saying the other option was the destruction of Palestine as though I has accused you of advocating it. I see you're still taking my posts very personally and perhaps as attacks on your character when they are not meant to be. I stand by my opinion that it is hypocritical, but I've gone out of my way to emphasize that it is easy to be in this case. We're human, we get to be hypocrites, and we usually are. So anyway, let's take the defensiveness down a bit and talk.
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