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 Poll

  • Question: Which one (if any) are you more inclined to side with? (Give reasons)
  • Israel - 50 (30.5%)
  • Palestine - 114 (69.5%)
  • Total Voters: 163

 Topic: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?

 (Read 231572 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 3 4 56 7 ... 39 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #120 - May 25, 2011, 07:25 PM

    You might have a point with companies like McDonalds, but if there was no occupation then Israel wouldn't need to build railway systems in Jerusalem & the West Bank, they'd need less bulldozers because they wouldn't be destroying homes and there wouldn't be a need for such a militarised state because there would be peace. It would mean less sales = less profit.

    If there were peace and coexistence in the region, do you think there would be no need to build railways?
    And, while there would be less need for bulldozers for leveling homes to the ground, there would probably be an increased need of other industrial vehicles for constructions.

    So, no, I do not see how those "sellers of generic tools/services" have an interest in keeping the conflict from going on :|
    They probably are neutral about it and do not give a shit if they are killing each other or hugging each other... they just sell whatever they have to sell to anyone who asks.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #121 - May 25, 2011, 07:39 PM


    No Israel  defended itself against Arab aggressors in 1967 and it is still doing., The war was forced on them by Arab Muslims, the Islamic nations surrounded it supported by Islamic leaders + Public. At that time there was one Islam and that was against Juice & Israel.



    Oh please, the '67 war was a continuation of the '48 where hundreds out thousands of arabs (not only muslims) were made refugees, so how was Israel 'defending' itself? If you kick me out of my home today and I fight you tomorrow that is NOT you defending yourself.


    They are not Muhammad following Muslims .. Either to kill or to  get killed.. They are smart guys.. they use other ways to screw those who try to eliminate them.



    Someone once said  "If the good is sown, the good is collected." It works the other way too; if the bad is sown the bad is collected. Karma's a bitch  parrot
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #122 - May 25, 2011, 07:45 PM

    Quote
    Karma's a bitch


    You've become a Hindu  Huh?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #123 - May 25, 2011, 07:47 PM

    And as someone else said, dead Israelis and Palestinians do not deserve any more attention than dead Libyans, Syrians, Yemenis, Bahrainis, Iranians or Congolese if we come to that..


    I don't see why both are mutually exclusive. I personally find the Arab uprising a complement to the Israeli/Palestine in the issue in the sense that due to corruption, Islam and dictatorship the Arab people have completely lost years of political, economic and technological evolution and development. After decades of missing out on what developed nations have, technology is finally getting through to the Arab masses ... and technology is ironically also creating bigger threats to Israel. Israel tangibly conveys the benefits of a democratic country where, combined with the values of secularism, people are treated as equal in the eyes of the law.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #124 - May 25, 2011, 07:48 PM

    If there were peace and coexistence in the region, do you think there would be no need to build railways?



    There would but it wouldn't be constructed, ran and profited by a foreign occupier.


    And, while there would be less need for bulldozers for leveling homes to the ground, there would probably be an increased need of other industrial vehicles for constructions.

    So, no, I do not see how those "sellers of generic tools/services" have an interest in keeping the conflict from going on :|
    They probably are neutral about it and do not give a shit if they are killing each other or hugging each other... they just sell whatever they have to sell to anyone who asks.


    The only construction that would be done would be by the Palestinian authority. And yes that is the problem they're prepared to sell to anyone, this would change if sanctions were imposed more fairly.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #125 - May 25, 2011, 07:54 PM

    You've become a Hindu  Huh?


    lol no, although I have been reading a bit about Hinduism and Buddhism.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #126 - May 25, 2011, 07:55 PM

    well Aphrodite 10 years back I was thinking like you before I learned everything on the area of 1967  Israel where width of the country was 15 miles ., But by 2011 when million Muslims are living in Israel and participating in elections .. and looking in to the preachers of Islam + learning Islam itself from scriptures + Islamic history  I have turned 180 degrees..


    How long did it take you to do the 180 degrees? 10 years? I was talking to a friend about this recently, the cases when people do U-turns in their opinions. I think it took me about 4 years after I became an atheist to turn pro-Israeli. Though - I'm approximately 80% overall pro-Israeli, since I still am not convinced why they don't urban sprawl into the South of Israel.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #127 - May 26, 2011, 06:01 AM

    Interesting quote relating to the whole subject of "Da Palestinyuns" by one of their own I was not aware of until I visited JihadWatch today:

    "THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE DOES NOT EXIST. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

    The source of this statement can be found HERE.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #128 - May 26, 2011, 08:15 AM

    sums up my thoughts of Zionism's sick and demented history perfectly


    Herzl and Zionism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #129 - May 26, 2011, 08:17 AM

    Interesting quote relating to the whole subject of "Da Palestinyuns" by one of their own I was not aware of until I visited JihadWatch today:

    "THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE DOES NOT EXIST. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

    The source of this statement can be found HERE.

    and yet Palestinians in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt are regarded as REFUGEES by the Government and many of them live in specially designated refugee camps (esp. in Jordan where most of the native Arab population of Palestine fled from 1948 onwards).  Roll Eyes

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #130 - May 26, 2011, 08:27 AM

    Quote
    Interesting quote relating to the whole subject of "Da Palestinyuns" by one of their own I was not aware of until I visited JihadWatch today:

    "THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE DOES NOT EXIST. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

    The source of this statement can be found HERE.

    and yet Palestinians in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt are regarded as REFUGEES by the Government and many of them live in specially designated refugee camps (esp. in Jordan where most of the native Arab population of Palestine fled from 1948 onwards).  Roll Eyes



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_refugee_camps

    Quote
    Quote
    There are ten refugee camps in Jordan.

        *
              o 1955, Amman New Camp (Wihdat), 49,805
              o 1968, Baqa'a, 80,100
              o 1968, Husn (Martyr Azmi el-Mufti), 19,573
              o 1968, Irbid camp, 23,512
              o 1952, Jabal el-Hussein, 27,674
              o 1968, Jerash camp, 15,696
              o 1968, Marka, 41,237
              o 1967, Souf, 14,911
              o 1968, Talbieh, 4,041
              o 1949, Zarqa camp, 17,344


    Lebanon

    The total number of registered refugees in Lebanon is 409,714.[1] There are 12 official camps with 225,125 refugees.

    The Palestinians' Lebanese camps became ghettos as the Palestinians were barred from citizenship, finding certain jobs, or traveling abroad.[2] Some of these refugee camps, overcrowded and filled with angry refugees, helped seed the beginnings of Yasser Arafat's Fatah group; guerrilla attacks on Israel were launched from some of the Palestinian camps in Lebanon.[3]

    Following major armed conflict in one camp in 2007, the Lebanese government sought greater input into the rebuilding of the camp, and in the camp's ongoing management. The government wanted the ability to intervene in the future, and to exercise police powers there instead of the Palestinian armed forces that had policed the camp previously.[2]

        *
              o 1955, Beddawi, 15,695
              o 1948, Burj el-Barajneh, 19,526[2][3]
              o 1955, Burj el-Shemali, 18,134
              o 1956, Dbayeh, 4,223
              o Dikwaneh, destroyed
              o 1948, Ein el-Hilweh, 44,133
              o 1948, El-Buss, 9,840
              o Jisr el-Basha, destroyed
              o 1952, Mar Elias, 1,406
              o 1954, Mieh Mieh, 5,078
              o Nabatieh camp, destroyed in 1973
              o 1949, Nahr al-Bared, 28,358 destroyed in 2007
              o 1963, Rashidieh, 24,679
              o Sabra destroyed
              o 1949, Shatila, 11,998
              o 1948, Wavel, 7,357

    [edit] Syria

    Syria has 10 official camps with 119,776 refugees.

        *
              o 1950, Dera'a, 5,916
              o 1967, Dera'a (Emergency), 5,536
              o 1950, Hama, 7,597
              o 1949, Homs, 13,825
              o 1948, Jaramana, 5,007
              o 1950, Khan Dunoun, 8,603
              o 1949, Khan Eshieh, 15,731
              o 1948, Neirab, 17,994
              o 1967, Qabr Essit, 16,016
              o 1948, Sbeineh, 19,624

    Additional unofficial camps in Syria:

        *
              o 1955-6, Latakia camp, 6,534 registered refugees
              o 1957, Yarmouk (Damascus), 112,550 registered refugees
              o 1962, Ein Al-Tal, 4,329 registered refugees[4]

    [edit] West Bank

    The West Bank has 19 official camps with 194,514 refugees.

        *
              o 1950, Aida, 4,151
              o 1949, Am'ari, 8,083
              o 1948, Aqabat Jabr, 5,197
              o 1950, Arroub, 9,180
              o 1950, Askar, 31,894
              o 1950, Balata, 41,681
              o 1950, Beit Jibrin ('Azza), 1,828
              o 1950, Camp No.1 (Ein Beit al-Ma'), 6,221
              o 1949, Deir Ammar, 2,189
              o 1949, Dheisheh, 10,923
              o 1948, Ein as-Sultan, 1,888
              o 1949, Far'a, 11,836
              o 1949, Fawwar, 7,072
              o 1949, Jalazone, 9,284
              o 1953, Jenin, 35,050
              o 1949, Kalandia, 9,188
              o 1952, Nur Shams, 8,179
              o 1965, Shu'fat, 9,567
              o 1950, Tulkarm, 17,259

    [edit] Gaza Strip

    The Gaza Strip has eight official camps with 478,854 refugees.

        *
              o 1948, Beach camp (Shati), 76,109
              o 1949, Bureij, 30,059
              o 1948, Deir el-Balah camp, 20,188
              o 1948, Jabalia (Jabaliya), 103,646
              o 1949, Khan Yunis, 60,662
              o 1949, Maghazi, 22,536
              o 1949, Nuseirat, 64,233
              o 1949, Rafah camp, 90,638





    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #131 - May 26, 2011, 01:45 PM

    Quote from: atheist.pk
    and yet Palestinians in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt are regarded as REFUGEES by the Government and many of them live in specially designated refugee camps


    Perhaps for the same sort of reasons that the quoted PLO man Zuheir Mohsen wishes to maintain a fiction of a distinct "Palestinian" population? These countries COULD have absorbed the so-called "suffering Palestian refugees" into their midst long ago. Guess they haven't abandoned their Arab nationalist/Islamic aim of utterly destroying Israel which they have tried THREE TIMES to achieve without success.

    Quote
    (esp. in Jordan where most of the native Arab population of Palestine fled from 1948 onwards).


    And why did the "natives" flee exactly APK? Just to alert Ishina to atheist.PK's use of the word "NATIVE" and ask her if she has much of a objection to his usage in relation to the word "ARAB" as she obviously had to mine in the context of Europeans.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #132 - May 26, 2011, 01:54 PM

    sums up my thoughts of Zionism's sick and demented history perfectly


    Herzl and Zionism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

    sums up my thoughts of Zionism's sick and demented history perfectly


    Herzl and Zionism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL


    You would obviously like to see Israel no longer a feature on world Atlases APK. In the event of your dream being realized we are going to have a lot of stateless Jews who have to go SOMEWHERE. So how do you like this idea: Europe, USA and other western countries take these Jews in exchange for every Arab or person of recent Arab origin living in our midst joining their native Arab brothers and sisters in zionist-cleansed NativeArabPalestinyunLand to live in perfect harmony as only Arabs can. Does that appeal to you?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #133 - May 26, 2011, 02:13 PM

    sums up my thoughts of Zionism's sick and demented history perfectly


    Herzl and Zionism
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsVUO3kotH0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

     Afro


  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #134 - May 26, 2011, 03:29 PM

    Aphrodite: you are aware that the comments attributed to Theodore Herzl in the vid posted by APK were attributed to his PRE-zionist period?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #135 - May 26, 2011, 03:56 PM

    Dearest DH Herzl maintained these views (Esp. of religious Jews who regarded early Zionism as a deranged cult) throughout his entire life. See the entire documentary, also contains some very vivid and downright disgusting views of another Zionist hero David Ben Gurion regarding the rescue of Jewish captives in concentration camps.

    Oh and DH, more of the world's Jews dont even live in Israel, and many of them have no plan of going there. There is a reason why many of them left the carnage in Europe immigrated to USA etc and regard Israel as some once in a lifetime solidarity flavour of the month to go and visit and have dual nationalities just for the hell of it. You will never see the Jews of American East Coast permanently leaving for Israel. They are better off in USA than in that artificially created state that relies on European atrocities of the past to justify its belligerence to this day on the actual native population of that area that really are stateless refugees!

    Israel is a basket case, a country that relies purely on lobbying of AIPAC, handouts of US/EU taxpayer money, collusion with Arab dictators like Mubarak and Abdullah of Jordan (even the Qatari and Kuwaiti regimes in secret) for still being unanswerable for its pathetic conduct and making sure the Palestinians only end up become desperate and what not!

    and while we are at my list of Jewish anti-Zionists, I may as well include my favourite the late Naeim Giladi (Rest In Peace)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emq94B17zXo

    Funny how the creation of Israel by European Zionists (and anti-Semitic folks like Lord Balfour who supported an Israel just so he wanted to kick all Jews out of UK) also had a devastatingly permanent effect of the Jewish populations of the Arab and Muslim World, that were in good conditions prior to the late 1940s for many centuries but because of Israel, none of it exists.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #136 - May 26, 2011, 04:41 PM


    There is a reason why many of them left the carnage in Europe immigrated to USA etc and regard Israel as some once in a lifetime solidarity flavour of the month to go and visit and have dual nationalities just for the hell of it. You will never see the Jews of American East Coast permanently leaving for Israel. They are better off in USA than in that artificially created state that relies on European atrocities of the past to justify its belligerence to this day on the actual native population of that area that really are stateless refugees!

     I wonder about that dual nationalities., How many countries in the world has that dual nationalities atheist.pk??  Do the European juice that moved out of Europe and England also have this dual nationality?? I guess all US citizens can have dual nationalities provided both countries agree.,    I wonder is there any resource links  on that??

    Quote
    Israel is a basket case, a country that relies purely on lobbying of AIPAC, handouts of US/EU taxpayer money,  collusion with Arab dictators like Mubarak and Abdullah of Jordan (even the Qatari and Kuwaiti regimes in secret) for still being unanswerable for its pathetic conduct and making sure the Palestinians only end up become desperate and what not!


    Those day are over .. Now dictators also gone so what  should be the solution?? As far hand outs are concerned, we can not speak without real numbers,  one must give the numbers since the creation of Israel, what  US/EU taxpayer paid to them and why they pay and how they pay.. Similar way how much is gone to middle east Muslim countries from these US/EU taxpayer??

    If there are/were dictators in Islamic nations means the  fault squarely lies with the people ..the leaders.. the preachers and the religions in it...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #137 - May 26, 2011, 05:29 PM

    I wonder about that dual nationalities., How many countries in the world has that dual nationalities atheist.pk??  Do the European juice that moved out of Europe and England also have this dual nationality?? I guess all US citizens can have dual nationalities provided both countries agree.,    I wonder is there any resource links  on that??

    Well Israel has some very basic requirements for its 'Right of Return' law that allows anyone who has Jewish blood (grandmother or great grandmother, regardless of how seriously they actually take their own 'Jewishness') can apply for citizenship from around the world after filling some very basic residency requirements. Israel does not stop people from keeping or applying another citizenship either. Roll Eyes

    Basically a desperate attempt to maintain as much 'Jewish' character of its state given how the non-Jewish Arab citizens of Israel are growing rapidly each year (actual citizens, not talking about the much larger Palestinian refugees or migrant workers in Israel, actual citizens who are usually treated like step children by the Israeli politicians) and with low birth rates of Jewish folks (except the Hasidic ones which Israel now needs as its new 'settlers') its no surprise that if the status quo maintains for a good 2 decades or so, the Jewish population could become a minority in Israel. That'll be interesting to watch.  whistling2

    Quote
    Those day are over .. Now dictators also gone so what  should be the solution?? As far hand outs are concerned, we can not speak without real numbers,  one must give the numbers since the creation of Israel, what  US/EU taxpayer paid to them and why they pay and how they pay.. Similar way how much is gone to middle east Muslim countries from these US/EU taxpayer??

    If there are/were dictators in Islamic nations means the  fault squarely lies with the people ..the leaders.. the preachers and the religions in it...

    AIPAC and similar lobbyists still holds a lot of influence and I dont expect it to end soon, although there are growing voices in opposition towards it in USA and EU. The size of Israel is tiny compared to the rest of the Muslim countries that get aid. Per capita aid Israel gets from Israel alone makes the aid given to African countries etc look like peanuts!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyVy5XHjuGI (not sure how accurate is this but..)

    Well the dictators have gone, but you are forgetting the role of Armed Forces there (Esp. Egypt) which still maintains a tight relationship with Israel, is very pro-America, and has no real love for Palestinians. they are maintaining a tight leash on just about everything there.

    Since the armed forces have a lot of respect (maybe too much) from most of the public, very few are daring to stand up to them and demand them to back off.

    The revolutions in these countries have not fully sunk in because the army is maintaining a strong stand, although yes a few decisions have been made in getting close to opening the Egypt-Gaza border to relieve the mess there as well as hosting a Palestinian unity conference, but the Army is not losing its good relationship with Israel at any time soon.

    I absolutely agree on the last line of dictatorships in these countries. People are indoctrinated to never question authority and never doubt their role of 'protecting Islam from peril' using propaganda, school syllabi etc. Same in Pakistan.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #138 - May 26, 2011, 06:16 PM

     
     Roll Eyes
       whistling2
     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyVy5XHjuGI (not sure how accurate is this but..)

     

    well we will discuss rest of the stuff later .. but let us consider those numbers in that tube are ~ly correct.

    And forget that jew who talks nonsense when it comes juice and keeps quite when it comes to Islam/Islamic leaders/islamic preachers  and Mullahs ..   he is one of those jews  who think juice must be MORALLY SUPERIOR TO OTHERS , hence they should behave better in every way....

    that is not my problem.. Now you that video says .. 65 billion dollars from 1946 to 1994....  which is 48 years...  that is ~1.4 billion a year..   so peanuts..

    what did US of and Europe gave to  Islamic nations and Islamic heroes??   By the way juice who moved out of Europe to Us of A  lot more than 1.4 billion a year to that country...

    So question is what did US of A gave to Islamic nations in  middle east and what did Muslims of US of A gave to US of A..,   that is where the problem lies..

    You know your question why Juice don't go south instead of settling in Palestine  and they are  having a million or so  Muslims in Israel  & participating in its elections ??     Answer lies in its security..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #139 - May 26, 2011, 06:21 PM

    I don't see why both are mutually exclusive. I personally find the Arab uprising a complement to the Israeli/Palestine in the issue in the sense that due to corruption, Islam and dictatorship the Arab people have completely lost years of political, economic and technological evolution and development. After decades of missing out on what developed nations have, technology is finally getting through to the Arab masses ... and technology is ironically also creating bigger threats to Israel. Israel tangibly conveys the benefits of a democratic country where, combined with the values of secularism, people are treated as equal in the eyes of the law.


    I never said that they were mutually exclusive, I just pointed out something.  An increased availability in technology will not necessarily lead to an immediate change in mindsets either.  As for the uprisings, while I wish the participants well, I remain skeptical, some the placards I saw and the news I have been hearing have not exactly given me much hope either

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #140 - May 26, 2011, 06:32 PM

    one has to realize with reference to dead  Israelis and dead Palestinians unlike dead Libyans, Syrians, Yemenis, Bahrainis, Iranians or Congolese etc..etc.., There is a fundamental difference.,

    Dead dead Israelis and dead  Palestinians  are one verses othere but It is Juice verses Muslims and it is Israel verses Islamic Palestine.  To days news from juice says  


    It still doesn't make them any more important.  The good thing about the uprising is that quite a lot of the Arabs, Egyptians and North Africans have realised how much all the hype about Israel and the Palestinians has blinded them to their own miserable reality and the fact that their rulers treat them even worse.  

    I'll also bet that people in places like South Yemen have it worse than the Gazans ..



    That is the problem one need to solve first before we solve forget solving even talking about Palestine and Israel  borders., Once we solve that Palestinians can live in Israel and Israelis can live in Palestine..



    Islam could disappear but attitudes there will probably still not change either.  Fuck it, they (by which I refer to both Israelis and Palestinians) might have as well still been living in the days of the Maccabees and King Herod.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #141 - May 26, 2011, 06:52 PM

    Well Israel has some very basic requirements for its 'Right of Return' law that allows anyone who has Jewish blood (grandmother or great grandmother, regardless of how seriously they actually take their own 'Jewishness') can apply for citizenship from around the world after filling some very basic residency requirements. Israel does not stop people from keeping or applying another citizenship either. Roll Eyes


    You forget that Jews are not just members of a religion as are the Christians and Muslims but actually descendents of specific tribes and a nation.  One understands the issue about the right of return but then again, one must also bear in mind that even if many Jews don't take their 'Jewishness' seriously there are many who are willing to do it instead of them, even today.   Hence the need for Israel.

    Fuck it, hoards of Libyans and Tunisians waving placards of Gaddafi and Ben Ali drawn as stereotypical Sherlock Jews and Qardhawi attracting huge audiences in supposedly free Egypt is enough to tell you why Israel should exist.



    Since the armed forces have a lot of respect (maybe too much) from most of the public, very few are daring to stand up to them and demand them to back off.


    True, Egypt at the moment is much like what old Prussia was, an army with a country.  However at the moment, is there anyone safer to manage things?  Be honest.   Do you think the Ikhwan ruling al Masr would be better?

    The revolutions in these countries have not fully sunk in because the army is maintaining a strong stand, although yes a few decisions have been made in getting close to opening the Egypt-Gaza border to relieve the mess there as well as hosting a Palestinian unity conference, but the Army is not losing its good relationship with Israel at any time soon.


    Have you forgotten who is in control of Gaza by any chance?  Do you honestly think that opening the border while they are there is going to make things better for anyone?  Of course the Egyptian army has a love hate relationship with Israel,  it has far more threatening foes within its own country.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #142 - May 26, 2011, 07:35 PM

    Quote
      Do you honestly think that opening the border while they are there is going to make things better for anyone?


    Only 1.5 million people who have been living under an illegal medieval siege since 2006  Roll Eyes


    Quote
    it has far more threatening foes within its own country.

     Cheesy

    Yeah a few dozen jihadis who decide to take on an army of almost half a million are more of a threat than a nuclear armed state who was built on violence and occupation. Sure  Afro
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #143 - May 26, 2011, 07:40 PM

    Only 1.5 million people who have been living under an illegal medieval siege since 2006  Roll Eyes


    Things were quite good for them when Hamas decided to focus on 'resisting' and wiping out Israel once the army withdrew.    They don't have to live under that siege if Hamas try laying down their weapons for a change.



    Yeah a few dozen jihadis who decide to take on an army of almost half a million are more of a threat than a nuclear armed state who was built on violence and occupation. Sure  Afro



    If only it were that way, but not all jihadis are that direct, and alas they are not a few dozen either.  Try getting to know more about the situation before you comment.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #144 - May 26, 2011, 08:06 PM

    The army 'withdrew' in 2005 but still controlled the air and sea not exactly a full withdrawal. And Hamas has been using armed resistance for decades, the siege started after Hamas won the elections.

    Quote
    They don't have to live under that siege if Hamas try laying down their weapons for a change.


     Cheesy LOL you're forgetting the 2008 ceasefire and guess who didn't adhere to that properly and broke it?  Roll Eyes

    EDIT:

    Israel admits Hamas didn't fire rockets during the ceasefire:

    http://youtu.be/zfFMZ7Y-s_c


    Yeah yeah, let me guess they're going to use taqqiya to fool the people and win the elections. *yawns*
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #145 - May 26, 2011, 08:16 PM

    The army ;withdrew' in 2005 but still controlled the air and sea not exactly a full withdrawal. And Hamas has been using armed resistance for decades, the siege started after Hamas won the elections.


    No shit, given that Hamas full of genocidal fundies (and Fatah are hardly any better) who refuse to recognise them in the first place I don't blame them.  I suppose they should just accept to be slaughtered like lambs cos Thamina don't like em..  dance



     Cheesy LOL you're forgetting the 2008 ceasefire and guess who didn't adhere to that properly and broke it?  Roll Eyes

    Yeah yeah, let me guess they're going to use taqqiya to fool the people and win the elections. *yawns*


    Yes they broke it by letting one of their soldiers be kidnapped from within their borders.  I know you hate Israel, but do you genuinely think that the Palestinians are going to be better off under the likes of their leaders?  I bet you think they can't produce anything better than Abu Mahzen and Haniyeh.  Just stop pretending that you're concerned about them.  Your only concern is that they keep on being martyrs and remain loyal to the 'cause'..

    I don't know about Taqiyya but they know how to play on other people's emotions..  If you are referring to the Ikhwan in Egypt, they're the most organised and the strongest political faction there.  Give them five years and they can become a potential threat.  

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #146 - May 26, 2011, 08:39 PM

    Only Israel is guilty of mass killings mate, that is a FACT no ifs or buts. The PLO recognised Israel in the 90s, what did that achieve? Hamas doesn't have the capability of 'slaughtering' anyone--I'm talking about the official Hamas position, not individual Hamas members.

    Broke what? Gilad Shalit was kidnapped in 2006, the ceasefire was brokered in 2008. Please, I don't "hate" Israel, I have no emotions towards such a state  Tongue Lol I'd prefer if there was no killing, I've said it before and I'll say it again; the only solution is a single secular state. I believe they can produce better leaders however its kinda hard to build parties and politicians if you're not allowed to have democracy and state, no?

    Yup I agree, they certainly do know how to play to peoples emotions. Even though they're the strongest and they do win elections (we're assuming here) how are they going to threaten the military?


    Bleh I'm bored of debating the same crap over and over again. Let me know when Hamas becomes as violent as Israel, I doubt that will ever happen though  parrot
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #147 - May 26, 2011, 08:55 PM

    Only Israel is guilty of mass killings mate, that is a FACT no ifs or buts.


    Of course, and I'm sure the Mossad was involved in the death of my cousin's puppy too.  The bastards..



     The PLO recognised Israel in the 90s, what did that achieve? Hamas doesn't have the capability of 'slaughtering' anyone--I'm talking about the official Hamas position, not individual Hamas members.


    They definitely make a lot of promises.   I suppose the Israelis should wait for them to get something effective.  Just in case you didn't know the Hutu militias managed to turn a million Tutsis into fertiliser using nothing but dodgy kalashnikovs and the classic rusty machete back in 1994


    Broke what? Gilad Shalit was kidnapped in 2006,


    Has be been released?  If we come to that Hamas are holding all of Gaza as hostages.


    the only solution is a single secular state. I believe they can produce better leaders however its kinda hard to build parties and politicians if you're not allowed to have democracy and state, no?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqKNHWZc5wE

    How are you supposed to have a single state without having a repeat of what happened in the Balkans?  That is the general sentiment.  That is why there need to be two states before such a thing can even be considered.  It is that simple.


    Yup I agree, they certainly do know how to play to peoples emotions. Even though they're the strongest and they do win elections (we're assuming here) how are they going to threaten the military?


    Should they become the legitimate representatives of Egypt, they will be.  Obviously the army wouldn't like that and would do something about it.  The result would be more instability and another Mubarak.


    Bleh I'm bored of debating the same crap over and over again. Let me know when Hamas becomes as violent as Israel, I doubt that will ever happen though  parrot


    You can ask the relatives of the Fatah supporters who were thrown out of the windows, or the Palestinians that were telling them that they were worse than the Jews on Al Jazeera.   

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #148 - May 26, 2011, 10:27 PM

    How long did it take you to do the 180 degrees? 10 years? I was talking to a friend about this recently, the cases when people do U-turns in their opinions.

    well that was 10 years back I started questioning after learning juice and Israel location and its geography..  and movies like this The story like Muhamad Al-Dura, Islamic stories and Islamic history.. careful reading of Quran did the Job..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsCBFhCsyY

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtQnvDGwyio

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1c6FY7C1Ho

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yv2DCKKnYQ

    That case is still running.. http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=218595


    And gillions of kill kill kill juices videos from Palestine Islamic heroes..  Took me out of that programmed support of Palestinians..  Off course I STILL SUPPORT PALESTINE PEOPLE., as far as country is concerned it must be democratic and it must have place to every religion and religious follower WITHOUT DEFENSE FORCES..  No guns only Police..

    Quote
    I think it took me about 4 years after I became an atheist to turn pro-Israeli. Though - I'm approximately 80% overall pro-Israeli, since I still am not convinced why they don't urban sprawl into the South of Israel.

    well such Questions must be asked.. anyways here southern Isreal

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_District_(Israel)

    Please go through the link and cities in it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Pro Israel or Pro Palestine?
     Reply #149 - May 26, 2011, 11:21 PM

    http://www.imemc.org/   daily news from that area.. Palestinian side  

    Quote
    Qabha Demands P.A. To Release All Political Prisoners

    Qabha said that these arrests and interrogations have no moral, religious or political justifications.

    “It makes no sense to have political arrests, even before achieving unity”, he added, “this situation causes shame and sadness, such campaigns must stop”.

    The Hamas leader also stated that political arrests only serve foreign agendas, and that the Palestinian people are a nation of freedom fighters and generosity.

    “I hope that there is no stream within the Fateh movement that targets the unity agreement”, he said, “I fear that there are external pressures on certain security officials in the West Bank to act on foiling the unity deal.”

    He also said that political prisoners in the Jneid prison sent several letters stressing on the importance of releasing all political prisoners.

    read more at that link...

    U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf
    http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/45198.pdf

    Foreign Aid to Palestine/Israel - OCHA oPt.
    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/opt_econ_aic_foreign_aid_opt_may_2006.pdf

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3495681,00.html
    International aid for Palestinians increases to $7.6 billion

    Palestinian minister admits aid millions lost
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1545182/Palestinian-minister-admits-aid-millions-lost.html

    The EU's aid to the occupied Palestinian territory
    http://www.cidse.org/uploadedFiles/Regions/Israel_-_Palestine/CIDSE%20seminar%20report-09.11.08.pdf

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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