Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #30 - June 03, 2011, 04:41 PM

Islam can be whatever you want it to be, baby.
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #31 - June 03, 2011, 04:50 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on May 31, 2011, 02:07 AM
Hassan covered this in an older thread somewhere. Would have to go and find it, but according to him it does not come from salaam and does not mean peace. Since he is fluent in Quranic Arabic (not just modern Arabic) I've always taken his word for it.

Yeah, that's true. The word 'islam' sounds similar to 'salam' (peace) but actually means to surrender, in this case, to Allah. And when a person becomes a muslim i.e. 'aslama' they have surrendered to Allah and submitted to him.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #32 - June 03, 2011, 07:31 PM

Hi,

From what I know, islam comes from the verb aslama which means "to give over/up (something or oneself)" hence its rendering as "submission/surrender/resignation". Some say "aslama" can mean "to make peace", which would render "islam" as "peacefulness".

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #33 - June 03, 2011, 07:39 PM

Quote from: xxrb43 on June 03, 2011, 04:50 PM
Yeah, that's true. The word 'islam' sounds similar to 'salam' (peace) but actually means to surrender, in this case, to Allah. And when a person becomes a muslim i.e. 'aslama' they have surrendered to Allah and submitted to him.

I'm assuming that's the same word found in the greeting "aslam alaykum" right? and possibly the reason why a muslim can't use this greeting to greet non-muslims?
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #34 - June 03, 2011, 08:22 PM

I thought aslama was a greeting too, at least that's how I'm always greeted by my muslim son-in-law's family.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #35 - June 03, 2011, 08:39 PM

Yeah that just means "peace", you can say that to a non-muslim but you can't say "aslam alaykum"

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1953&CATE=34
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #36 - June 03, 2011, 09:17 PM

Ah I see. Thanks for that Aphrodite.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #37 - June 03, 2011, 09:30 PM

Good post, Billy.

That Ceebeebees clip was pitiful.
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #38 - June 03, 2011, 09:54 PM

Sunnipath is funny, and often full of crap.
Dont believe what you read...

He said: Peace be unto thee! (salamun AAalayka) I shall ask forgiveness of my Lord for thee. Lo! He was ever gracious unto me. [Quran, 19:47]

Abraham said that to his pops and he aint no muslim afaik.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #39 - June 03, 2011, 10:21 PM

Quote from: billy on June 03, 2011, 04:00 PM
But its not a good analogy. Christianity has a violent history, but Christianity of today is not the Christianity of the past. It was forced to get its house in order, it has been castrated and de-fanged. There are still Christian fanatics and Christian bigots, but the power of Christianity is not what it was, and it is subject to the arrows and slings, sneers, ridicule and scrutiny of a self-reflexive culture that has secularised and turns in on its former overlord in the former domains in which Christianity held most total power.

Of course in the developing world, especially in Africa, Christianity does perpetrate pernicious reactionary influence. And of course there are exceptions of influence and persuasion in the bigger picture. But not to acknowledge the state of Christianity today, from how it was in the past, is I feel, quite disingenuous.

Even the debate about the history of Christian violence in relation to Islam is skewed. The history of the crusades, for example, are widely known and condemned by secular societies that previously were the domains of Christian power. Aphrodite can post a clip from a BBC Childrens TV history show, which shows how complete this introspective condemnation is. But there is no similar introspection and condemnation of historical violence perpetrated in the name of Islam and Islamic imperialism. In fact, the mainstream view is to glorify, justify and elevate and romanticise Islamic crusades throughout history. The tendency in the West is to go along with that, for various complex reasons, partly ignorance, partly fear, partly misguided liberal sentiment.

When it comes to using Christianity as a counter example, I think we should be more honest. We should say that Christianity has a violent and bloody and bigoted history, but that its castration and neutering is a good example to how Islam can also be tamed and put back in its kennel, where it belongs. We should also say that the self-reflexivity and honest self-criticism that secularised societies carry out in regard to Christian history is another example for Muslim societies and Identity Politicians to learn from regarding their violent history.

Finally, the existence of Christian bigots and sectarians and fundamentalists in the present day presents another counter-example. On an individual basis, Christianity can be debunked through textual and cultural scrutiny. Christians can leave Christianity without fear of death or violence. Jesus Christ himself can be rejected, criticised and ridiculed, with infinitely more freedom than can happen in the Islamic world with Mohammad and the Quran and Hadith. So on an individual level, away from large historical points, and on the theological level, the existence of a secular space that Christianity has had to demur to, also has to be acknowledged. The historical, cultural and social processes that brought us to this point are valuable and must be considered; as does, in the main, Christianity's ultimate submission to them. Unless you tell it like it is, these lessons don't get applied in other spaces and domains, to other religions like Islam.

Brava! When I left Catholicism (which I was born into), no one cared and my family just shrugged it off. They're not religious. Now when I left Islam, I was threatened and it was a debacle. As nan said, "At least with Catholicism and other Christians, we're not fanatical and crazy with the faith like those Muslims..."

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #40 - June 03, 2011, 10:56 PM

Quote from: WhoMan on June 03, 2011, 09:54 PM
Sunnipath is funny, and often full of crap.
Dont believe what you read...

He said: Peace be unto thee! (salamun AAalayka) I shall ask forgiveness of my Lord for thee. Lo! He was ever gracious unto me. [Quran, 19:47]

Abraham said that to his pops and he aint no muslim afaik.

I think I'll believe Sheikhs quoting SAHIH hadith. What Abraham, Moses or Jesus said (even in the Quran) was overruled by Mohammed. The Quran doesn't say "follow Allah and follow the Prophets"it says "Obey Allah, obey his messenger blah blah". According to Islam the other Prophets were only sent for specific nations for a specific time whereas Mohammed was sent to mankind till the day of judgment and this is supposed to be the Ummah of Mohammed
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #41 - June 04, 2011, 12:21 AM

i still dont see how mo gained prophethood after reading quran 29:27

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #42 - June 04, 2011, 12:39 AM

I don't see anything wrong with it--from an Islamic perspective

"And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous." 29:27

All its saying is that Abraham was given his two sons and were given Prophethood. Islam has many Prophets! Which made it easier then and today to give dawah just a shame Mo was the seal of the Prophets, I wanted to have an empire too

A similar verse from 1 of my fav surahs

"When he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet. " 19:49
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #43 - June 04, 2011, 12:59 AM

Aphrodite,

sheikh : appeal to authority fallacy

sahih does not mean 100% correct.

Abraham over-ruled?
Islam is called "Millat Ibrahim" (creed/religion of Abraham) throughout the Quran (2:130, 135; 3:95; 4:125; 6:161; 12:37-38; 16:123; 21:73; 22:78). Moreover, the Quran informs us that Muhammad was a follower of Abraham (16:123).

Quote
Quran doesn't say "follow Allah and follow the Prophets"

2:136 Say: "We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him we submit."

believe but dont follow?

Back on track, another example...

And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you (salamun AAalaykum): we seek not the ignorant. [28:55]

In case this example does not suffice, is your position, what is good for Abraham (whom Muhammad was a follower of, see above) and those who are muslim from previous scriptures who will receive twice the reward is not good for muslims of today........ erm, based on a non-Quranic source?

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #44 - June 04, 2011, 01:33 AM

Oh come on, its not one hadith there's many in that link I provided! They can't all be wrong!

Like I said Mohammed overrules the past scriptures:

"Say (Oh Mohammed): "If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you your sins: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." (3:31-32)

The tafsir of these verses:

Quote
Allah's Love is Attained by Following the Messenger

This honorable Ayah judges against those who claim to love Allah, yet do not follow the way of Muhammad . Such people are not true in their claim until they follow the Shari`ah (Law) of Muhammad and his religion in all his statements, actions and conditions. It is recorded in the Sahih that the Messenger of Allah said

(Whoever commits an act that does not conform with our matter (religion), then it will be rejected of him.)

after a bit (cba to copy+paste it all) it says:

Quote
(then Allah does not like the disbelievers.) thus, testifying that defiance of the Messenger's way constitutes Kufr. Indeed, Allah does not like whoever does this, even if he claims that he loves Allah and seeks a means of approach to Him, unless, and until, he follows the unlettered Prophet, the Final Messenger from Allah to the two creations: mankind and the Jinn. This is the Prophet who, if the previous Prophets and mighty Messengers were to have been alive during his time, they would have no choice but to follow, obey him, and to abide by his Law. We will mention this fact when we explain the Ayah.

Meaning if alcohol was allowed during the time of Abraham, Moses or Jesus it wouldn't be allowed then (during Mohammed's time or today) and they would have to follow his law. So if he prohibited his people from giving salam to non-muslims (numerous hadith) then it doesn't matter who Abraham gave salam to.

I'll look at the meaning of the verse you posted above tomorrow its almost 3 am here o_0 but I know that was 'revealed' during Makkah ie the 'peaceful' stage of vocal dawah and much of the sharia wasn't established.

Please don't get me wrong, if you interpret Islam in a different and better way then I'm happy I'm just pointing out what I was taught and what I think to be the position of orthodox Islam.
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #45 - June 04, 2011, 01:43 AM

Quote from: Aphrodite on June 03, 2011, 07:39 PM
I'm assuming that's the same word found in the greeting "aslam alaykum" right? and possibly the reason why a muslim can't use this greeting to greet non-muslims?

No aphrodite that's a different arabic word. The 'aslama' I was talking about, there's more emphasis on the 's'. In the muslim greeting it's more like al-salamu alaykum, which means peace be upon you. That's a totally different word from aslama, which as I said means surrendering to Allah.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #46 - June 04, 2011, 04:23 AM

Quote from: BerberElla on June 01, 2011, 05:08 AM

If you apply that here, a lot of muslims seem pretty peaceful when they completely submit and trust that the reprehensible things allah the dominator expects off of them, are ok to do. No blame, no shame, and in that way they achieve peace.

Its those of us who struggle and fight against his will that do not get that peace because we are not silly enough to believe that letting allah take control of our morality will somehow make everything we do ok.

Or at least that is how I always viewed it.

i can understand how we can view the acceptance of Islam from the outside as the above. However, I think people inside the religion reason differently. If one were a muslim, one would think of God as the Absolute source of all morality, therefore, doing as God states is exactly the same as doing the moral thing. So, I don't think they see themselves as giving up moral responsibility but rather attempting to align their own moral decisions with that of the Absolute source of morality itself.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #47 - June 04, 2011, 12:55 PM

But but but aphrodite....

they cant all be wrong?

tafsir?

shari'ah law of Muhammad?

Muhammad the person overrules past scriptures?

if prophets were alive they follow Muhammad, erm ok, but in Quran it says Muhammad follow creed of Abraham?
If A follows B, and muslims follow A, muslims follow B is wrong?

Quote
the position of orthodox Islam.

Ahh it makes sense now!

I will give you a heads up, "orthodox Islam" is FULL of variance, errors and contradictions.

On this particular point, as I said, Quran says Abraham and those going to heaven said salam to non-Muslims, also there is examples of the ordinary "salam" from Muslims to non-Muslims in many verses, e.g.

And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the Earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say: "Peace." (salaman) [25:62]

So I assume the "alaykum" part makes it haraam! lol.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #48 - June 04, 2011, 07:02 PM

Quote from: z10 on June 04, 2011, 04:23 AM
However, I think people inside the religion reason differently. If one were a muslim, one would think of God as the Absolute source of all morality, therefore, doing as God states is exactly the same as doing the moral thing. So, I don't think they see themselves as giving up moral responsibility but rather attempting to align their own moral decisions with that of the Absolute source of morality itself.

Problem is that there is no guarantee external to one's belief of what god really wants you to do.
On top of that those who completely submit themselves to god cannot commit evil even when committing the most gruesome act because proximity to god renders mere human considerations and constraints irrelevant.
Hence flying a plane into a building is perfectly morally acceptable as long as one truly believes that one is acting in accordance to god's wishes.
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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #49 - June 04, 2011, 07:09 PM

Yes, unfortunately, if you have the wrong god (or, to be politically correct, the wrong idea of god) then evil can be committed in the name of being religious. You're right that it is a problem but I don't think it's exclusive to religion - perhaps I can make the case that all my moral decisions come from the core of my being and that it is really I that is making all these choices but isn't it more likely that my ideas of morality are a mish-mash of social conditioning, genetic make up and other limits upon human behaviour? If that is the case, then morality is derived from an external source for both the religious and the non-religious, perhaps it's all external.

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Re: Does Islam mean Peace, or Submission, or a bit of both?
Reply #50 - June 04, 2011, 07:36 PM

Quote from: z10 on June 04, 2011, 07:09 PM
You're right that it is a problem but I don't think it's exclusive to religion ..

It is not exclusive to religion, however most people are spontaneously moral and would find killing or torturing another human being extremely traumatic. There are psychopathic atheists who would torture or kill for the sake of pleasure but in order to get people to commit acts of mass violence one needs a mobilising call, some sort of hegemonic ideology, a sacred cause.
Religion fits this role perfectly because of its belief in a higher divine goal which makes mere human concerns seem trivial.

Quote from: z10 on June 04, 2011, 07:09 PM
Yes, unfortunately, if you have the wrong god (or, to be politically correct, the wrong idea of god) then evil can be committed in the name of being religious.

Imo the problem is that most religionist experience god in a form of superego (the issue being that the more one tries to please it the more on fails) or in the form of the authority of the big Other.
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