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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins

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  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #30 - June 10, 2011, 09:28 PM
    I have to give credit to this Tzortzis fella to at least give others a chance to have their say. He does let them talk, and doesn't interrupt them when they say something he disagrees on. Of course what he is saying is complete and utter nonesense. I really don't find these quasi-intellectual and philosophical debates about islam/Allah interesting. To me, the only thing that matters, is how Allah, an omniscient and omnibenevolent being is unable to persuade the majority of mankind to believe in him, so he can save them from hell fire. Either he doesn't know how to do so, or he doesn't care. Which pretty much proves that he is not both omniscient and omnibenevolent.

    These muslims should call me when the majority of world population (say at least 85%) take shahada. Which is not going to happen, ever.
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #31 - June 13, 2011, 01:05 AM
    What does "thumma" mean?

    When Adnan Rashid was talking about embryology in the Quran, he said the Quran tells us that the bones are formed then they are covered with flesh.  PZ Myers pointed out that this is incorrect because the bones and flesh form simultaneously.

    Then Adnan Rashid said the Arabic word "thumma" can mean "then" as well as "simultaneously".
    .
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #32 - June 13, 2011, 09:42 AM
    Bullshit. ANY Arabic speaker, any person who studied Arabic vocabulary and grammar would tell you that 'thumma' stands for sequence/succession. The exact opposite of simultaneity. When you say A thumma B, it means that B happened after A. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. No need to tell you which category Mr Adnan Rashid belongs to.
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #33 - June 13, 2011, 10:36 AM
    not sure if it's been posted here already but here is a blog entry from Hamza's blog:

    http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2010/01/dawkins-delusion-response-to-richard.html

    it's a response to R. Dawkins 'god delusion' and it's a rather lengthily read. just skimmed through it atm. should be interesting to read some more of his intellectually healthy way of not requiring empirical evidence to form conclusions about things  whistling2
    Quote from: zooby on December 26, 2011, 01:57 AM
    I think a lot of us were brought here by google. Verily google guides whom it wills!

  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #34 - June 13, 2011, 11:13 AM
    Quote
    If we could conclude anything from Dawkins’ argument it would be that we should not infer that God exists based on the design of the universe. However, even if that is true, it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist; we can believe in God’s existence from other arguments, which include:

    • The argument from morality;
    • The miracle of the Qur’an;
    • The cosmological argument;
    • The argument from personal experience;
    • The argument from consciousness.


    Absolute, timeless, moral values do not exist, they evolve along with the species.

    The miraculous revelations of the Qur'an can't even be proven, and if we're talking scientific miracles then there's no great miracle in the Qur'an, all are very disputable and there are a lot of contradictory scientific statements in the Qur'an that are turned strategically into metaphors  Roll Eyes.

    The cosmological argument can only be used to infer there was a cause to the beginning of the universe, that's it.

    Personal experience? Give me a break Mr 'psychologist'.

    There is nothing special about consciousness, the brain is a machine that will soon be reverse engineered.
    Join us on chat. Click here.
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #35 - June 13, 2011, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: Naerys on June 13, 2011, 09:42 AM
    Bullshit. ANY Arabic speaker, any person who studied Arabic vocabulary and grammar would tell you that 'thumma' stands for sequence/succession. The exact opposite of simultaneity. When you say A thumma B, it means that B happened after A. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either ignorant or a liar. No need to tell you which category Mr Adnan Rashid belongs to.

    Thanks for clarifying that.  It was obvious that he was talking rubbish because he only changed the definition of the word on the spot to gloss over the blatant blunder in the Quran regarding embryology.

    Adnan Rashid just made another video and he's sticking by what he said.  He's saying if we refer to Lanes Lexicon Dictionary then it says that thumma can mean simultaneously.

    Watch from 6:30mins onwards...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA9RnYpM7ME
    .
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #36 - June 13, 2011, 10:48 PM
    This is him butthurt after Maryam Namazie laid into him in the Q&A sess at the Dublin Atheist Conference

    She wastes Adnan here after he suggests she's like an Iranian Mullah in the Q&A between 21:30 - 29:00 at the Dublin Atheist conference

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqHUbK7yW6g&feature=player_embedded#at=140
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #37 - June 13, 2011, 10:59 PM

    What a delightful sequence ^^^

    By the way, how scaredy cat and pathetic and needy and hysterical persecution-complexed does that guy sound. A small man, floundering in fear in the ocean of life, appealing to his grand master narrative for some significance in his life. Like all these dawah merchants.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #38 - June 13, 2011, 11:04 PM

    Paraphrasing:

    "In the anti-Christian enlightenment we had intellectual giants defending those against religion, today we have academics from SOAS and elsewhere falling over themselves to defend Islam, misogyny in the 21st Century"
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #39 - June 13, 2011, 11:10 PM
    Maryam Namazie  thnkyu
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #40 - June 13, 2011, 11:16 PM
    She is totally right regarding the Left, Wafa Sultan and Ayan Hirsi Ali.

    There was a time when the Left knocked the shit out of religion - when it was called Christianity. Why the hell do they accept Islam?

    As a Leftist i am really pissed off.
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #41 - June 13, 2011, 11:25 PM

    How long would an ex Muslim or a non Muslim who was openly critical of Islam last at SOAS, to use one example  Huh?

    I fear he'd be expelled for perpetrating a hate crime or something.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #42 - June 13, 2011, 11:28 PM
    Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on June 13, 2011, 11:16 PM
    As a Leftist i am really pissed off.

    about what?
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  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #43 - June 13, 2011, 11:32 PM
    LOL @ Hamza's response to stoning!

    A guy in the crowd asked Hamza about stoning on Twitter.  I'm reading the tweets right now.

    Question to Hamza - So does sharia law include stoning?  Yes or no?

    Hamza's response - Drugs are completely forbidden in Islam, so no, we don't get stoned.

     whistling2
    .
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #44 - June 13, 2011, 11:37 PM
    .
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #45 - June 14, 2011, 03:56 AM
    Quote
    If we could conclude anything from Dawkins’ argument it would be that we should not infer that God exists based on the design of the universe. However, even if that is true, it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist; we can believe in God’s existence from other arguments, which include:

    • The argument from morality;
    • The miracle of the Qur’an;
    • The cosmological argument;
    • The argument from personal experience;
    • The argument from consciousness.



    says "hi"

    I linked a thread on another forum that had an explanation of WLC's Reasonable Faith and critique of it.  You'll find a lot of very similar arguments.  That's why I was surprised to see the argument from personal experience to be listed.  It is one of WLC's weaker arguments and I find it funny lifted and transmogrified into an Islamic personal experience.  
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #46 - June 14, 2011, 04:05 AM
    Quote from: Shahid Raza on June 13, 2011, 11:32 PM
    LOL @ Hamza's response to stoning!

    A guy in the crowd asked Hamza about stoning on Twitter.  I'm reading the tweets right now.

    Question to Hamza - So does sharia law include stoning?  Yes or no?

    Hamza's response - Drugs are completely forbidden in Islam, so no, we don't get stoned.

     whistling2


    To be fair to apologists, when you here the same objections ( justified or not) over and over again you try and become more adept at answering the question in a more persuasive way.  Humorous misdirection etc are just ways to make the script more entertaining. 
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #47 - June 14, 2011, 04:14 AM
    Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on June 13, 2011, 11:16 PM
    She is totally right regarding the Left, Wafa Sultan and Ayan Hirsi Ali.

    There was a time when the Left knocked the shit out of religion - when it was called Christianity. Why the hell do they accept Islam?

    As a Leftist i am really pissed off.


    That was the  movement that tried and free people from corporatist institutions such as the Catholic and Protestant churches and recognized an individual's consciousness and  identity separate from the group(s) that they prescribed to, but who used coercion to keep its members within the fold. After that was accomplished in some form then more modernist movements of inclusion started taking place ( woman's suffrage and equal rights, minority recognition as cohabitants in society and history) including Muslims who have had a long history of discrimination in the West ( see Said's Orientalism etc).  

    The "left"'s quandary is now they are trying to make societal space for the very types of corporatist institutions that their forefathers fought against in the name of liberalism who will by their nature try and use coercion against its own members to label them, make them submit, and punish them according to group standards irregardless of individual freedom of consciousness. The sooner the realize that a scorpion can't be carried across a river on a fox's back, the better.

    Nevermind MN just explained it better than I could :(   
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #48 - June 14, 2011, 05:22 AM
    Quote from: billy on June 13, 2011, 10:59 PM
    What a delightful sequence ^^^

    By the way, how scaredy cat and pathetic and needy and hysterical persecution-complexed does that guy sound. A small man, floundering in fear in the ocean of life, appealing to his grand master narrative for some significance in his life. Like all these dawah merchants.


    Well it is true that people shouldn't resort to demagoguery and claim that historically it was all bad ( but it wasn't as pretty as dawagansts would like us to think) but that acknowledging the historicity of Islam is in no way an acceptance of its tenets.  The communists were large proponents in the Civil Rights movement in the US, the liberation of India etc.  One can acknowledge their good deeds without an acceptance of their ideals.

      
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #49 - June 14, 2011, 12:59 PM
    http://www.spittoon.org/archives/9874
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #50 - June 15, 2011, 08:38 PM
    That Rashid fella's wordplay just proves how you can have the Quran say whatever the hell you like, as Allah did not bother to state in clear cut words, what he wanted to convey. I can't believe how a muslim is trying to present the ambiguity of the quran, as a strength of the Quran, as its a clear weakness. Which pretty much proves that there was no omniscient being behind the quran.

    And the muslims who claim that all these scientific miracles reside in the quran, should show to how these miracles were derived and presented to the world, BEFORE the infidels made these scientific discoveries, or they should just shut the hell up. Claiming all this science in the Quran, after it had been discovered by the infidels, just make them look foolish. But they are not able to comprehend that.


    Hamza starts by trying to provide ‘proof’ for first cause, i.e. the idea that the universe could not have come about without something starting it. Though it’s impossible to prove this one way or another (that is if you understand the meaning of the term ‘proof’ in this context), even if one were to concede the point then it doesn’t in any way prove the existence of a God, certainly not a single eternal God who seeks to interfere in our daily lives and punish those who don’t believe in him.

    This pretty much sums up how his quasi-intellectual gibberish is just that, gibberish.
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #51 - June 17, 2011, 09:03 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on June 13, 2011, 11:28 PM
    about what?


    Sorry for the late answer.

    Ill let Prof. Cornel West answer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPfn0HBkKkU

    The European Left  - I cant speak for the American Left. But the European is a lost man who needs to find himself - and his true principles.
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #52 - June 17, 2011, 09:22 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on June 14, 2011, 05:22 AM
    Well it is true that people shouldn't resort to demagoguery and claim that historically it was all bad ( but it wasn't as pretty as dawagansts would like us to think) but that acknowledging the historicity of Islam is in no way an acceptance of its tenets.  The communists were large proponents in the Civil Rights movement in the US, the liberation of India etc.  One can acknowledge their good deeds without an acceptance of their ideals.


    I'm not sure I follow you mate. I can't see what that has to do with what the fella was saying, or my admiration of Maryam Namazie's swatting down of it.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #53 - June 19, 2011, 08:40 PM
    Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on June 17, 2011, 09:03 PM
    Sorry for the late answer.

    Ill let Prof. Cornel West answer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPfn0HBkKkU

    The European Left  - I cant speak for the American Left. But the European is a lost man who needs to find himself - and his true principles.

    my, he's good  Afro
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  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #54 - June 19, 2011, 11:56 PM
    Here's the Lane's Lexicon entry for thumma.  The list of definitions is quite long, but I can't see "simultaneously" as a definition of thumma anywhere...

    http://studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000387.pdf
    http://studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000388.pdf
    .
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #55 - July 14, 2011, 02:04 PM
    Hamza just wrote this on his Facebook/twitter...

    Hamza Andreas Tzortzis
    We have spent many long days analysing the Qur'an's statements in chapter 23 on embryology, and have compared them with modern academic work on the subject. We have completed the first draft of the research, and amazingly the Qur'an is more accurate than firstly discovered. Watch this space!

     Roll Eyes

    .
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #56 - July 14, 2011, 02:39 PM
    Quote from: billy on June 17, 2011, 09:22 PM
    I'm not sure I follow you mate. I can't see what that has to do with what the fella was saying, or my admiration of Maryam Namazie's swatting down of it.



     it was a general comment.  A lot of people think they automatically have to be against something just because an apologist is for it. That doesn't have to be the case. I think maryam's comments are fine.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #57 - July 14, 2011, 07:12 PM
    Quote from: Shahid Raza on July 14, 2011, 02:04 PM
    Hamza just wrote this on his Facebook/twitter...

    Hamza Andreas Tzortzis
    We have spent many long days analysing the Qur'an's statements in chapter 23 on embryology, and have compared them with modern academic work on the subject. We have completed the first draft of the research, and amazingly the Qur'an is more accurate than firstly discovered. Watch this space!

     Roll Eyes



    TRANSLATION: "We have spent many long days trying to reinterpret the bullshit in the Quran to make it true. Thanks to the ambiguity in the Quran, we are able to make it more accurate than we imagined."
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #58 - July 14, 2011, 07:50 PM
    Quote from: -Tmp- on July 14, 2011, 07:12 PM
    TRANSLATION: "We have spent many long days trying to reinterpret the bullshit in the Quran to make it true. Thanks to the ambiguity in the Quran, we are able to make it more accurate than we imagined."


    Pretty much this.


    Youtube
  • Re: Hamza Tzortzis & IERA challenge PZ Myers, Maryam Namazie & Richard Dawkins
     Reply #59 - July 14, 2011, 08:59 PM
    Quote from: -Tmp- on July 14, 2011, 07:12 PM
    TRANSLATION: "We have spent many long days trying to reinterpret the bullshit in the Quran to make it true. Thanks to the ambiguity in the Quran, we are able to make it more accurate than we imagined."


    HEAR HEAR! (frantically waves piece of blank paper).
    I make it rain - apparently?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh_I19_mKkU&list=SP1665576E7498BAB7&index=2&feature=plcp
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