Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 01:32 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 08:53 AM

New Britain
November 29, 2024, 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!

 (Read 3759 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #30 - June 10, 2011, 09:18 AM

    Not to mention that in practical terms, the Jizya would often end up being double the Zakaat and that tax season was often a horrible nightmare for the Dhimmis.

    As S. D. Goitein says:

    "It was, of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers. It seemed, however, that from the economic point of view, it did not constitute a heavy imposition, since it was on a sliding scale, approximately one, two, and four dinars, and thus adjusted to the financial capacity of the taxpayer. This impression proved to be entirely fallacious, for it did not take into consideration the immense extent of poverty and privation experienced by the masses, and in particular their way of living from hand to mouth, their persistent lack of cash, which turned the "season of the tax" into one of horror, dread, and misery. The provisions of ancient Islamic law which exempted the indigent, the invalids and the old, were no longer observed in the Geniza period and had been discarded by the Shāfi‘ī School of Law, which prevailed in Egypt, also in theory."

    But more than all of that, this is clearly discrimination. A Muslim and a non-Muslim are clearly not equal in a theocratic Muslim state. Which is why such a state is inherently unjust and will eventually fall.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #31 - June 10, 2011, 09:57 AM


    Not to mention how this makes the Quran a time specific penal code - rendering Islam's claims of eternal, infinite perfection and relevance as false and ridiculous.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #32 - June 10, 2011, 10:33 AM

    Why do you feel morality is flawed in Islam? Can you provide evidence?

    What does the Qur'an say about rape?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #33 - June 10, 2011, 11:10 AM

    Not to mention that in practical terms, the Jizya would often end up being double the Zakaat and that tax season was often a horrible nightmare for the Dhimmis.

    As S. D. Goitein says:

    "It was, of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers. It seemed, however, that from the economic point of view, it did not constitute a heavy imposition, since it was on a sliding scale, approximately one, two, and four dinars, and thus adjusted to the financial capacity of the taxpayer. This impression proved to be entirely fallacious, for it did not take into consideration the immense extent of poverty and privation experienced by the masses, and in particular their way of living from hand to mouth, their persistent lack of cash, which turned the "season of the tax" into one of horror, dread, and misery. The provisions of ancient Islamic law which exempted the indigent, the invalids and the old, were no longer observed in the Geniza period and had been discarded by the Shāfi‘ī School of Law, which prevailed in Egypt, also in theory."

    But more than all of that, this is clearly discrimination. A Muslim and a non-Muslim are clearly not equal in a theocratic Muslim state. Which is why such a state is inherently unjust and will eventually fall.


    Speaking about the Shafi madhab:

    Quote
    THE NON-MUSLIM POLL TAX
    o11.4 The minimum non-Muslim poll tax is one dinar (n: 4.235 grams of gold) per person (A: per year).
    The maximum is whatever both sides agree upon. It is collected with leniency and politeness, as are all
    debts, and is not levied on women, children, or the insane.
    o11.5 Such non-Muslim subjects are obliged to comply with Islamic rules that pertain to the safety and
    indemnity of life, reputation, and property. In addition, they:
    (1) are penalized for committing adultery or theft, thought not for drunkenness;
    (2) are distinguished from Muslims in dress, wearing a wide cloth belt (zunnar);
    (3) are not greeted with "as-Salamu 'alaykum";
    (4) must keep to the side of the street;
    (5) may not build higher than or as high as the Muslims' buildings, though if they acquire a tall house,
    it is not razed;
    (6) are forbidden to openly display wine or pork, (A: to ring church bells or display crosses,) recite
    the Torah or Evangel aloud, or make public display of their funerals and feastdays;
    (7) and are forbidden to build new churches.
    o11.6 They are forbidden to reside in the Hijaz, meaning the area and towns around Mecca, Medina, and
    Yamama, for more than three days when the caliph allows them to enter there for something they need).

    o11.7 A non-Muslim may not enter the Meccan Sacred Precinct (Haram) under any circumstances, or
    enter any other mosque without permission (A: nor may Muslims enter churches without their permission).
    o11.8 It is obligatory for the caliph (def: o25) to protect those of them who are in Muslim lands just as
    he would Muslims, and to seek the release of those of them who are captured.
    o11.9 If non-Muslim subjects of the Islamic state refuse to conform to the rules of Islam, or to pay the
    non-Muslim poll tax, then their agreement with the state has been violated (dis: o11.11) (A: though if
    only one of them disobeys, it concerns him alone).
    o11.10 The agreement is also violated (A: with respect to the offender alone) if the state has stipulated
    that any of the following things break it, and one of the subjects does so anyway, though if the state has
    not stipulated that these break the agreement, then they do not; namely, if one of the subject people:
    (1) commits adultery with a Muslim woman or marries her;
    (2) conceals spies of hostile forces;
    (3) leads a Muslim away from Islam;
    (4) kills a Muslim;
    (5) or mentions something impermissible about Allah, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him
    peace), or Islam.
    o11.11 When a subject's agreement with the state has been violated, the caliph chooses between the four
    alternatives mentioned above in connection with prisoners of war (o9.14).


    Source: Reliance of Traveller by Al-Misri

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #34 - June 11, 2011, 07:00 PM

    Why do you feel morality is flawed in Islam? Can you provide evidence?

    Lets say CIA/Mossad/ISI kidnapped your family and is threatening you that they will be killed unless you do as instructed - you have to rob a bank.
    Stealing is morally wrong but in this case could you really be considered to be an immoral person in case you do as you are instructed? Could such an act of stealing really be considered truly immoral?
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #35 - June 11, 2011, 10:30 PM

    Lets say CIA/Mossad/ISI kidnapped your family and is threatening you that they will be killed unless you do as instructed - you have to rob a bank.
    Stealing is morally wrong but in this case could you really be considered to be an immoral person in case you do as you are instructed? Could such an act of stealing really be considered truly immoral?


    The act would be immoral but the reason would be justified.
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #36 - June 11, 2011, 10:33 PM

    Lets say CIA/Mossad/ISI kidnapped your family and is threatening you that they will be killed unless you do as instructed - you have to rob a bank.
    Stealing is morally wrong but in this case could you really be considered to be an immoral person in case you do as you are instructed? Could such an act of stealing really be considered truly immoral?


    Hmm. Just a thought: wouldn't this make terrorism not immoral since in a way, terrorists are "forced" to kill defenceless civilians on pain of eternal damnation in hell?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Fight those who do not believe in Allah!
     Reply #37 - June 11, 2011, 11:01 PM

    The act would be immoral but the reason would be justified.

    OK, like I said the act cannot be considered to be a moral one. However at the same time the perpetrator of such an act cannot experience true immorality through it like he could in case he was randomly killing people in the street because he was a sadist and a psychopath.

    In other words experience of true immorality cannot be achieved trough coercion (e.g. duress crime). Agreed?

    Hmm. Just a thought: wouldn't this make terrorism not immoral since in a way, terrorists are "forced" to kill defenceless civilians on pain of eternal damnation in hell?

    Of course. If there is a god than everything is permitted (like blowing up hundreds of innocent bystanders) since a direct link to god justifies violation of merely human constraints and considerations. Those who claim a direct link to god (thereby knowing exactly what god wants and expects from them) cannot commit evil. True love and true devotion to god guarantees that. Beautiful isn't it?

    The problem is that there is no guarantee outside one's belief, of what god really wants you to do.

     
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »