Quran within context of it's time argument

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Quran within context of it's time argument
OP - June 10, 2011, 07:15 PM

Convenience question please ...
What counter reasoning is there to:
- Muhammad/Quran promotes Jewish killing because at the time they were at war
- Muhammad was fine to marry a young teen as that was rife at the time. Apparently a famous philosopher was also a pedo.

Cheers!

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #1 - June 10, 2011, 07:42 PM

I would personally concede the point since I'd rather have hypocritical, illogical Muslims not killing me than honest ones who will...

Seriously, though. This kind of thinking should be encouraged. Please *do* understand the Quran as an outdated legislative document.

Anyway, if you wish to tempt the devil, there are two maxims in Islamic fiqh you could use:

الإسلام صالح لكل زمان ومكان

Islam holds for every age and place.

العبرة بعموم اللفظ لا بخصوص السبب

The moral (of a verse) is derived from the generality of the language, not the specificity of the reason for its revelation.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #2 - June 10, 2011, 07:48 PM

If they ask you for a source, cite Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen's tafseer.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #3 - June 10, 2011, 09:08 PM

Quote from: harakaat on June 10, 2011, 07:42 PM
I would personally concede the point since I'd rather have hypocritical, illogical Muslims not killing me than honest ones who will...

LOL! Trouble is ... I was discussing with a non-Muslim who is very liberal. He is a New Statesman reader and was shocked to hear Medhi Hasan call Kuffirs cattle. Also very "Israel the aggressor" orientated. But he's fairly well informed on the liberal side arguments promoting Islam as a happy-clappy misunderstood religion. He's good at heart.

Thanks for those.

Now that I'm at a PC: Here a some verses:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html
Quote
Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61
Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. 5:12-13
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. 5:51
Jews and Christians are losers. 5:53
Jews and Christians are evil-livers. 5:59
Allah has cast enmity and hatred among the Jews. 5:64
Allah will punish the disbelieving Jews until the Day of Resurrection. 7:167
Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low." 9:29

So the argument here I think is the Bible verses have been dropped, Islam hasn't in it's majority based interpretation.

With regards to pederasty ...

Aristotle and Plato's contribution to society was fueled by what is assumed to be a fairly healthy pedophile relationship.

What on earth? This is news to me! Apparently it was rife at the time and even Socrates is guilty.

It is an annoying devil's advocate support that Mohammed wasn't such a bad guy if pederasty was rife and killing Jews was fine because there was a conflict.

But even so, any well balanced person should be able to drop these verses, which Muslims as a group find challenging due to a host of (mind indoctrinating) other reasons.

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #4 - June 10, 2011, 09:11 PM

wayas2aloonaka 3an el SOURCE 6ol Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen enaho kan mofaseran 6or2anana tafseeraaaa!

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #5 - June 10, 2011, 09:13 PM

Quote from: harakaat on June 10, 2011, 07:42 PM
Seriously, though. This kind of thinking should be encouraged. Please *do* understand the Quran as an outdated legislative document.

Well said. If that become the way most muslims view the Quran, I think less atrocities would be commited in the name of Islam.
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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #6 - June 10, 2011, 09:14 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 10, 2011, 09:08 PM
But even so, any well balanced person should be able to drop these verses, which Muslims as a group find challenging due to a host of (mind indoctrinating) other reasons.

Which would also mean they're not following the direct orders of the Quran. This way you could open the door of exactly WHICH verses to obey and which NOT. Is there a choice?

I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #7 - June 10, 2011, 09:22 PM

Quote from: luftazure on June 10, 2011, 09:11 PM
wayas2aloonaka 3an el SOURCE 6ol Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen enaho kan mofaseran 6or2anana tafseeraaaa!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that's going in my sig!

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #8 - June 10, 2011, 09:39 PM

Quote from: luftazure on June 10, 2011, 09:14 PM
Which would also mean they're not following the direct orders of the Quran. This way you could open the door of exactly WHICH verses to obey and which NOT. Is there a choice?

There's always a choice of interpretation and a choice for the popularity of the interpretation within a group. It is up to the person and group to make that choice. Though one has to appreciate the levels of mind indoctrination and fear/hatred that keeps the backward Islamic ideas remarkably stable.

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #9 - June 10, 2011, 11:42 PM

I don't try to interpret the Qur'an these days. It's a mug's game. It's a man-made religion anyway, and the prophet was a man/leader of his time. When Islam only had a small number of followers, the verses revealed to Mo were peaceful. And when the Muslims were at war with the non-Muslims, the verses revealed to Mo were harsh. Which is why I don't argue with those who say the verses about jihad should be taken in context. I don't think it is intellectually dishonest to do so. So basically, I don't know what the truth is (i.e. whether those verses were meant for all time) and I don't care anymore. In fact, I don't think Mo even thought about that. lol.

All I really care about is what Muslims *today* are doing in the name of religion. I strongly support individual Muslims' right to interpret the Qur'an as they wish without bullying by other Muslims. And I strongly support individuals' right to live as they wish as long as they don't infringe on other individuals' rights.

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #10 - June 11, 2011, 07:57 AM

You're right of course.

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #11 - June 11, 2011, 08:38 AM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 10, 2011, 09:08 PM

So the argument here I think is the Bible verses have been dropped, Islam hasn't in it's majority based interpretation.

not only that, for me its also about the amount the amount of time the Quran spends devoting to this drivel & focuses on itself being the last unchangeable final message, more so than any other scriptures

Here's what I found that I can corroborate as being broadly similar to what I found when I read it...

(52%) - over half of these verses is vitriol aimed at infidels.
(17%) - deal with Allah
(15%) - deal with believers/non-believers
(12%) - deal with Day of Judgment
(4%) ... is a good verse. (Do not steal from the poor / Give to the poor etc)

(Source: Pickthal Quran by Amber Pawlik)

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #12 - June 11, 2011, 11:45 AM

Quote from: ateapotist on June 10, 2011, 11:42 PM
I don't try to interpret the Qur'an these days. It's a mug's game. It's a man-made religion anyway, and the prophet was a man/leader of his time. When Islam only had a small number of followers, the verses revealed to Mo were peaceful. And when the Muslims were at war with the non-Muslims, the verses revealed to Mo were harsh. Which is why I don't argue with those who say the verses about jihad should be taken in context. I don't think it is intellectually dishonest to do so. So basically, I don't know what the truth is (i.e. whether those verses were meant for all time) and I don't care anymore. In fact, I don't think Mo even thought about that. lol.

All I really care about is what Muslims *today* are doing in the name of religion. I strongly support individual Muslims' right to interpret the Qur'an as they wish without bullying by other Muslims. And I strongly support individuals' right to live as they wish as long as they don't infringe on other individuals' rights.

AMEN !!!!
That's the essence of secular humanism ! Believe whatever crap you want to believe/disbelieve in peace,which shouldn't come at someone else's cost.

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #13 - June 11, 2011, 05:50 PM

Quote from: IsLame on June 11, 2011, 08:38 AM
not only that, for me its also about the amount the amount of time the Quran spends devoting to this drivel & focuses on itself being the last unchangeable final message, more so than any other scriptures

Here's what I found that I can corroborate as being broadly similar to what I found when I read it...

(52%) - over half of these verses is vitriol aimed at infidels.
(17%) - deal with Allah
(15%) - deal with believers/non-believers
(12%) - deal with Day of Judgment
(4%) ... is a good verse. (Do not steal from the poor / Give to the poor etc)

(Source: Pickthal Quran by Amber Pawlik)

Thanks! How does this compare with the other books?

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #14 - June 12, 2011, 12:10 AM

I havent got the percentages on that but from the bits Ive read of the bible & torah, it is nowhere near the Quran which according to these stats appears to have over 70% of its content directed towards hatred and threats.

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #15 - June 12, 2011, 02:57 AM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 10, 2011, 09:39 PM
There's always a choice of interpretation and a choice for the popularity of the interpretation within a group. It is up to the person and group to make that choice. Though one has to appreciate the levels of mind indoctrination and fear/hatred that keeps the backward Islamic ideas remarkably stable.

But Muslims who try to apply their own interpretation would be branded apostates by their Muslim brethren. Also this would lead to the creation of another Muslim sect.
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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #16 - June 12, 2011, 03:20 AM

Quote from: HighOctane on June 10, 2011, 07:15 PM
Convenience question please ...
What counter reasoning is there to:
- Muhammad/Quran promotes Jewish killing because at the time they were at war
- Muhammad was fine to marry a young teen as that was rife at the time. Apparently a famous philosopher was also a pedo.

Cheers!

"Its," not "it's."

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Re: Quran within context of it's time argument
Reply #17 - June 21, 2011, 05:09 PM

the entire point of quran is that it is an objective source of guidance for all mankind, and for all time.

but when it suits them, muslims wish to claim that morality is subjective and relative to your time and culture.

the counter argument to this claim is to point out that muslims cannot have it both ways. Either, morality is objective, and its ok today to marry children (for example). Or its not ok, and the quran is irrelevant.

if we cannot judge Muhammed by our standards, then neither can we be judged by his.
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