5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #210 - August 30, 2011, 10:22 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 10:12 PM
Are you an Arab, debunker?

yes.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #211 - August 30, 2011, 10:23 PM

Quote from: ateapotist on August 30, 2011, 10:17 PM
fuck off, muddy. Debunker ain't a troll.

he's just seeking my attention, like the little attention whore he is.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #212 - August 30, 2011, 10:32 PM

Quote from: toor on August 30, 2011, 10:18 PM
Speak no ill of Yeez. He is doing his best.

so you do hate his posts.

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Good for you; I wouldn't dream of gauging yours. All I could discern was a beleaguered defender of Allah, who isn't above petty jabs for those whom he appears to think are beneath him. If that is, indeed, your personality in full flow, then so be it.

wtf? I only insult those who insult me. Also, I really hate those who are only interested in conversing with Muslims (or belivers in general) only because they need to pretend that they are smarter, more sophiticated, self-righteous beings compared to believers. Those I have no problem of walking all over them.

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If the quality of your other posts is what passes for Islamic apologetics, all I will say is that I am heartened.

..
Now you're supposedly oozing class and sophitication.... very enviable.

Quote
and with that, I'm off this thread.

Good riddance.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #213 - August 30, 2011, 10:33 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 10:23 PM
he's just seeking my attention, like the little attention whore he is.

Seriously? Have you ever seen your face in the mirror?

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #214 - August 30, 2011, 10:36 PM

Quote
Seriously? Have you ever seen your face in the mirror?

I can assure you muddy, even my hairy ass is prettier than your face.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #215 - August 30, 2011, 10:36 PM

Quote from: harakaat on August 30, 2011, 09:19 PM
So Arabic is the not the perfectestestest language ever?

You can't catch debunker out with back hand volleys like this. He detests all this stuff and similar preposterous claims of Islam, and the worst of Islam's followers and their attitudes, but still believes in something, somewhere, inside Islam lies a truth, like a single rare fungus, or the last surviving yellow tadpole of an undiscovered species of toad flipping in a puddle, somewhere in the 1.7 billion acres of the Amazon rainforest.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #216 - August 30, 2011, 10:40 PM

@Debunker

Well, it could also mean similitude, couldn't it? As in Q. 74:31, 'What intends Allah by this similitude (mathalan)?' As it says talking about the 19 angels of Hell. And of course, you don't intend something by a description, it just describes something, and the exact same phrase (مَاذَآ أَرَادَ ٱللَّهُ بِهَـٰذَا مَثَلاً) appears in Q.2:26, specifically talking about the use of metaphor in the Qur'an.

Maybe you don't read it that way, but I think it's not so clear cut as you, and others, make it seem.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #217 - August 30, 2011, 10:46 PM

Quote
Well, it could also mean similitude, couldn't it? As in Q. 74:31, 'What intends Allah by this similitude (mathalan)?' As it says talking about the 19 angels of Hell. And of course, you don't intend something by a description, it just describes something, and the exact same phrase (مَاذَآ أَرَادَ ٱللَّهُ بِهَـٰذَا مَثَلاً) appears in Q.2:26, specifically talking about the use of metaphor in the Qur'an.

yes, and i believe that's why you thought these verses could point to metaphorical paradise/hell.

Quote
Maybe you don't read it that way, but I think it's not so clear cut as you, and others, make it seem.

In light of the other quite detailed verses, I have to take its meaning to be *description* rather than similitude.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #218 - August 30, 2011, 10:51 PM

Quote from: billy on August 30, 2011, 10:36 PM
You can't catch debunker out with back hand volleys like this. He detests all this stuff and similar preposterous claims of Islam, and the worst of Islam's followers and their attitudes, but still believes in something, somewhere, inside Islam lies a truth, like a single rare fungus, or the last surviving yellow tadpole of an undiscovered species of toad flipping in a puddle, somewhere in the 1.7 billion acres of the Amazon rainforest.

Hmph, I'm kinda sad no one got my lame joke (and I put a smiley next to it too!). It was not a serious question, I was satirizing the attitude among Arab Muslims that Arabic is the absolutely perfect language, which, debunker, you say you're not familiar with? I've heard it expressed dozens of times. Arabic is the language of Jannah, God chose to reveal the Quran in Arabic because it is the perfect language for his divine message, Arabic was *created* by God...

(Psst, my Islamic Studies teacher told me Sanskrit was the language of Hell )

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #219 - August 30, 2011, 10:52 PM

With all the Jews that Allah plans to send there I'd have thought it'd be Hebrew.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #220 - August 30, 2011, 10:53 PM

@ harakat

Quote
which, debunker, you say you're not familiar with? I've heard it expressed dozens times. Arabic is the language of Jannah, God chose to reveal the Quran in Arabic because it is the perfect language for his divine message, Arabic was *created* by God...

yeah, now i remember all this crap from school! I'm 35 years old, you know, so school is a long memory.

Quote
(Psst, my Islamic Studies teacher told me Sanskrit was the language of Hell )

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! I know you're making this up!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #221 - August 30, 2011, 10:59 PM

I swear!

She also had a little "chat" with my dad when I incredulously asked about the women's inheritance thing. That's when I was a Muslim. She was all "Watch out for your kid -- his ideas [ooga-booga] are dangerous."

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #222 - August 30, 2011, 11:03 PM

lol... where the hell did she get that from? lol

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #223 - August 30, 2011, 11:05 PM

I don't know -- I looked it up later, and I think it was a weak hadeeth.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #224 - August 30, 2011, 11:05 PM

Why Sanskrit? Were Hindus her favourite bogey men infidels?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #225 - August 30, 2011, 11:09 PM

Quote from: debunker on August 30, 2011, 10:22 PM
No, not all of them. Threats of Hell *after death* aren't really very effective, nor should they be, otherwise you would have no ability to choose. The Quran says God could send us a sign that can force us to believe, but since this destroys the entire point of giving us free-will (the ability to choose), God won't do it.

We'd still have the ability to choose if given conclusive evidence, and exercise that ability to choose Islam.
Are you saying only those of our decisions "free" which are based on inconclusive shoddy evidence?

Besides, we don't have (libertarian) free will anyway. Not with omniscient creator.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #226 - August 30, 2011, 11:23 PM

This is the most relevant thing I could find:

http://ar.islamway.com/fatwa/6927

But it mentions Persian and Syriac, and not Sanskrit. And Ibn Taymiyyah pretty much rubbishes the claim.

She said it was "Al-Lugha al-Hindiyya", which, in MSA, is Hindi, but I figured she meant Sanskrit because Hindustani did not develop until wayyyyyyy later. Besides, old Arabs used to refer to Sanskrit as "Al-Lugha al-Hindiyya", iirc.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #227 - August 30, 2011, 11:34 PM

I really hate the way there is so much of this - the branding and categorisation of entire cultures, civilisations and people, the derision inherent in all of that. Muslim complain about stereotyping and generalisation but so many indulge in it so reflexively themselves, and get support for it in structural ways too.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #228 - August 30, 2011, 11:38 PM

Quote from: billy on August 30, 2011, 11:34 PM
I really hate the way there is so much of this - the branding and categorisation of entire cultures, civilisations and people, the derision inherent in all of that. Muslim complain about stereotyping and generalisation but so many indulge in it so reflexively themselves, and get support for it in structural ways too.

+1

You wouldn't believe all the anti-Semitic bullshit I was taught as a toddler.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #229 - August 30, 2011, 11:48 PM

Really? Because I never went through any of that shit .
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #230 - August 30, 2011, 11:50 PM

Where did you go to school?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #231 - August 31, 2011, 12:59 AM

@ stuff

Quote
We'd still have the ability to choose if given conclusive evidence, and exercise that ability to choose Islam.
Are you saying only those of our decisions "free" which are based on inconclusive shoddy evidence?

no, i'm saying if there is a perfect proof Islam is the truth, then it would be really difficult to be proud/stubborn and choose to deny it, anyway (even if the threats of eternal torture are to be executed in the far future, after death). Just to give an example:

Prophet Saleh, bringing a giant she-camel as a sign is not a damning proof for people of ancient times. if I really didn't like his message I could always fall back on common legends of giant birds and other creatures and pretend this she-male is just one of those freaks of nature I keep hearing about since childhood.

Another example: So what if Jesus cured the blind, and raised the dead? These could be trickery works or he could be one of the legendary men with super healing powers I keep hearing about. So what if Moses split the sea? At that time, I can just attribute his acts to his mastery of magic.

People in the ancient times still had enough wiggle room to be stubborn about miracles because they were not conclusive enough, given their culture of scientific ignorance. Had these miracles been performed today, with our scientifc ability to conclusively deduce such events were indeed supernatural, we would practically have no choice to be stubbornn about it.

Quote
Besides, we don't have (libertarian) free will anyway. Not with omniscient creator.

If by that you mean pre-knowledge implies pre-destiny, then i disagree (e.g. if I were to travel into future and witness you winning the lottery, then my knowledge does not dictate your future). But I do belive our free-will is NOT independent of God's will. In any case, I believe in the immutability of the future with or without God. Eternalism, which is a philosophy of time most modern philosophers subscribe to, implies an immutable future, yet I don't think any of such philospophers would not hold you responsible for your actions.

In any case, as so eloquently put by z10:

Experience of choice is far more fundamental to me than any rationalisation about it.

The guy is a genius!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #232 - August 31, 2011, 01:21 AM

Quote
no, i'm saying if there is a perfect proof Islam is the truth, then it would be really difficult to be proud/stubborn and choose to deny it

And would this be a bad thing?

Also, I'm reasonably certain most people don't believe for reasons other than pride and stubbornness.
In my case pride has about as much to do with rejecting Islam as it does with rejecting homeopathy, psychic abilities, or Odinism.
Do you reject Hinduism out of pride or stubbornness? Of course not. Neither do I.

Quote
If by that you mean pre-knowledge implies pre-destiny, then i disagree (e.g. if I were to travel into future and witness you winning the lottery, then my knowledge does not dictate your future).

It certainly does not.
However, Allah is not merely an all-knowing observer - he is also the author of the universe, of which you and me are but a part. All events were conceived by him before they were actualized (also by him).

Have you heard the good news? There is no God!
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #233 - August 31, 2011, 01:23 AM

By the way, tell me debunker -- do you think I'm one of those who genuinely think Islam is not the right religion, or those who know it's the right religion but choose not to follow it out of pride?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #234 - August 31, 2011, 01:31 AM

@ harakat

Quote
By the way, tell me debunker -- do you think I'm one of those who genuinely think Islam is not the right religion, or those who know it's the right religion but choose not to follow it out of pride?

i don't know, i can't see into your heart.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #235 - August 31, 2011, 01:35 AM

That's just your nice way of telling me I'm a proud asshole who should go to hell, isn't it?

WHY DOES NO ONE LOVE ME.

Maybe Jesus will.

أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله, وأشهد أن يسوع ابنه وكلمته

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #236 - August 31, 2011, 01:38 AM

Quote from: Stuff on August 31, 2011, 01:21 AM
And would this be a bad thing?

no, but the idea is to cast away those who prefer to be proud and stubborn when they can.

Quote
Also, I'm reasonably certain most people don't believe for reasons other than pride and stubbornness.

i would believe the same thing too (but i find it extremely hard to believe people geniunly don't belive in a Creator God).

Quote
In my case pride has about as much to do with rejecting Islam as it does with rejecting homeopathy, psychic abilities, or Odinism.
Do you reject Hinduism out of pride or stubbornness? Of course not. Neither do I.

i can understand that.

Quote
It certainly does not.

ok.

Quote
However, Allah is not merely an all-knowing observer - he is also the author of the universe, of which you and me are but a part. All events were conceived by him before they were actualized (also by him).

that's a perfectly valid point. but as z10 once said: Experience of choice is far more fundamental to me than any rationalisation about it.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #237 - August 31, 2011, 01:41 AM

Quote from: harakaat on August 31, 2011, 01:35 AM
That's just your nice way of telling me I'm a proud asshole who should go to hell, isn't it?

WHY DOES NO ONE LOVE ME.

Maybe Jesus will.

أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله, وأشهد أن يسوع ابنه وكلمته

lol.... i swear to God i couldn't possibly be able to judge whether you geniunly disbelieve or not.

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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #238 - August 31, 2011, 01:43 AM

dont be so flattering, debunker me old mucka. harakaat deserves incomprehensible torture. hes bad people
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Re: 5 strongest arguments against the Quran - debate challenge for all?
Reply #239 - August 31, 2011, 01:47 AM

Quote from: debunker on August 31, 2011, 01:38 AM
i find it extremely hard to believe people geniunly don't belive in a Creator God

lol

I'm going to tell you something that I rarely talk about. Once, when I was really, REALLY depressed, not so long ago, I sought anything that would help me escape my depression. I tried to believe in god. I tried to believe really, really hard in god. I got down on my knees crying in a beach in Algeria, facing a beautiful, lightning-lit sky, and prayed to god, told him I loved him, told him I wanted him, as if that would somehow make me a theist again.

It didn't work. I simply could not convince myself a god was out there who was listening to me. And I really needed it. That inner conviction, that "i6mi2naan qalbiyy" -- it just didn't happen.

Oh well.

I'm convinced that theism -- or atheism -- is definitely not a choice, but a matter of conviction, that depends upon evidence (or the perception and understanding thereof), value judgments, emotion...

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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