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 Topic: World Atheist Convention 2012

 (Read 20033 times)
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  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #60 - September 05, 2011, 07:46 PM

    That's not what I meant. I meant that they think they're doing more than they need to do, like they have absolutely no obligation for the rest of society and everything they do is because they're just nice people.


    Who is 'they'? And what is the level of 'need to'- How much does a person 'need to' do? What point are you making here exaclty?

    You have a problem that I said to colonel that his critism leads me to think he has a feeling of worthlessness when faced with people who have more? I'm aware he was trolling now but my point stands in principle, in response to his criticms. I responded to the fact that he had a problem with me for merely stating a non elitist thing, namely staying in a hotel or something, can't remember exactly what. The criticm I've been extended has been illicited by me merely mentioning that I want to go to a convention and whether anyone else is interested in attending. I've not once indicated any immense wealth in my posession. The reality is for me, what I have now is a lot and I'm happy with that, but when did I ever give a figure? Did I say I'm a billionnaire or even a millionnaire? My level of income/wealth could simply indicate that I have a steady income that, with saving, will allow me to do something I want to do. I never asserted I have a huge pool of wealth and shoved it in anyone's face. Whether I do have a huge amount or not is irrelevant, the fact people feel awkwars is. It surprises me that people are so offended when one talks of money, yet not when one talks about sexual prowess, intelligence, etc. If a person mentioned (s)he's a doctor, would you attack her/him for shoving his/her achievement in our face to make us who are not so 'educated' feel thick? Why is it that if I mention that I'm going to OZ, or I bought a pair of designer shoes that I love, or that I'm staying in a hotel not hostel all of a sudden I'm villified!?

    I'm not a bazillionnaire oppressor earning my fortune off the backs of others. I'm not trampling on anyone etc. I don't regard wealth as a measure of a person's worth- when have I ever said this? I do however feel pleased to have some money, to be doing well. I would post if I got straight A's if I just got my A level results, or if I got a first class honours degree etc. To be pleased with oneself and to boast, so to speak, is not a declaration that anyone who achieves/has less is by any way inferior. We all boast, that's part of the fun of having something. If I had superpowers I think it'd suck if I couldn't tell others. We all want to say, look what I made  grin12 and feel proud/happy/pleased/etc

  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #61 - September 05, 2011, 07:46 PM

    Because no one is privileged without society providing them the opportunities. When we take something, we have a duty to give back.


    I guess that's what taxes do.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #62 - September 05, 2011, 07:47 PM

    What do you consider the point of morals?


    I'm angry with you for wanting to deprive me of my private jet. I'm not talking to you, Prince.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #63 - September 05, 2011, 07:48 PM

    I guess that's what taxes do.


    +1
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #64 - September 05, 2011, 07:48 PM

     Cheesy

    I'm going to haunt you forever like the ghost of Christmas past. Kiss

    +1

    The taxes you don't want to pay?
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #65 - September 05, 2011, 07:58 PM

    im sure the 4 horsemen donate there proceeds for public appearances to charity

    i'd go for a reasonable price, if it was local


    anyhow it will be up on utube soon after
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #66 - September 05, 2011, 08:05 PM

    Taxes I don't want to pay? When did I say that? I pay taxes. I just don't think it's sensible that the government creates huge taxes for 'rich' people as it's silly. It's just a vote catcher and not actually real. This was my point. Like, over a ceratain amount of money you get taxed a higher percentage, but when you get over a certain amount there are so many loop holes so overall you don't actually pay much in tax. Taxes only affect the low and middle - the people who earn over what's considered meagre, and under what's considered high, and they are unfair on these people. The tax system is bull shit. I don't have too much knowledge on this topic, all I know is the big money makers do things like offshore to avoid tax and other schemes,
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #67 - September 05, 2011, 08:19 PM

    If taxes did enough we'd be living in societies where everyone had equal opportunities.

    Saffire talks about taxes being a good thing then moans when the government wants to tax her more because she had opportunities other people didn't have. She then uses the fact that the rich have a lot of loopholes to advocate for tax-cutting, like there's no other option... say, closing those loopholes.
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #68 - September 05, 2011, 08:37 PM

    You are ignorantly and purposely misundestanding. The governmental increase of taxes doesn't affect the 'rich', they have no effect essentially. I can engage in tax schemes etc so I only pay a fraction. This is my point. The government incresing the tax on the rich is just to look good to the mass majority but it does nothing. Tax increses don't affect earnings over a certain threshold, they only attack the middle earners mainly

    The reality is it's not money that limits opportunity, but other 'advantages' too. A person's level of intelligence for example. Money can buy education but it can't make you a genius if you're thick. What equal opportunities do you mean? That everyone gets educated- we have this. That everyone can attend university- we have this. Or maybe everyone should have the 'equal opprotunity' to live in a mansion, drive a porche, etc? This is just silly. The system is not designed to luxuriate all but to provide all with the basics, the onus being on them to work hard to achieve more. Unfortunately, the thing I DO hate about the system is it prevents people from rising through sheer hard work- there was a time when a person could work his/her ass off and gradually gain something, but sadly I've seen in many cases that some people are actually better off financially NOT working.

    The reality is I don't know or care about all this stuff. I have a problem that I can't understand something that doesn't interest me cos I can't focus! I know nothing of capitalism, the system, etc. All I know is just having money does not make you a bad person, the SAME as not having it doesn't make you a noble person! All I know is I don't trample on anyone and I don't care about the rest. So I want to live and have fun. That's my only agenda. Also, having money doesn't make you responsible for curing all ills, doesn't mean you have to give others, make a difference, change the world. These things can be done without money, yet majority don't 'help'- people with money are expected to do more than the majority expect of themselves. Many won't give an hour to charitable work, yet expect the rich to give millions of hard earned (thousands?) cash to help?

    Me, I'm just living my life.
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #69 - September 05, 2011, 08:39 PM

    Quote
    A person's level of intelligence for example. Money can buy education but it can't make you a genius if you're thick.

     Cheesy

    It's this kind of attitude that makes you the worst kind of privileged person.

    Also, this:

    Quote
    All I know is I don't trample on anyone and I don't care about the rest. So I want to live and have fun. That's my only agenda. Also, having money doesn't make you responsible for curing all ills, doesn't mean you have to give others, make a difference, change the world. These things can be done without money, yet majority don't 'help'- people with money are expected to do more than the majority expect of themselves. Many won't give an hour to charitable work, yet expect the rich to give millions of hard earned (thousands?) cash to help?

    Me, I'm just living my life.

    Thank you for proving my point.
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #70 - September 05, 2011, 08:45 PM

    Abood, can you elucidate your points further so we'd understand your position better?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #71 - September 05, 2011, 08:47 PM

    What points exactly?
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #72 - September 05, 2011, 08:49 PM

    Cheesy

    It's this kind of attitude that makes you the worst kind of privileged person.

    Also, this:
    Thank you for proving my point.


    Your objections to Saffire's points.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #73 - September 05, 2011, 08:50 PM

    This thread stinks.

     Crap

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #74 - September 05, 2011, 08:55 PM


    Thank you for proving my point.


    I have no need or desire to tell you what I do/don't do to help others. Is this what you want?

    I give to charity
    How much?
    5% of my income
    So? Wow like that'll change the world while you're lavishing in your ivory tower

    Later

    I've sold my house, bought a smaller one and now give 10% to charity
    So? Wow like that'll change the world while you're lavishing in your ivory tower

    Later

    I've sold my house, moved into a much smaller one and give 20%
    So? Wow like that'll change the world while you're lavishing in your ivory tower

    Later

    Sold my house and live in a single room above a chip shop. I give 50% to charity
    So? Wow like that'll change the world while you're lavishing in your ivory tower

    Later

    Sold my room, live in a caravan and give 80% to charity
     Cheesy You poor bastard..... revs his mid range car and drives off into the sunset

  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #75 - September 05, 2011, 09:14 PM

    Taxes I don't want to pay? When did I say that? I pay taxes. I just don't think it's sensible that the government creates huge taxes for 'rich' people as it's silly. It's just a vote catcher and not actually real. This was my point. Like, over a ceratain amount of money you get taxed a higher percentage, but when you get over a certain amount there are so many loop holes so overall you don't actually pay much in tax. Taxes only affect the low and middle - the people who earn over what's considered meagre, and under what's considered high, and they are unfair on these people. The tax system is bull shit. I don't have too much knowledge on this topic, all I know is the big money makers do things like offshore to avoid tax and other schemes,


    You really don't get it do you? People who don't have much money get fucking annoyed when well-off people like you complain about their tax burden. Again, you're not the only one with money here, but, so far as I've seen, you're the only one with money complaining about the taxes you have to pay, and you're the only one who used their wealth to put down another member (or are you having amnesia about the nasty shit you said to asbie when you first joined chat about how pitiful he is because he's broke and you live so well and have so much money?). Like I said it's not that you have money that pisses me off, it's that you're obnoxious about it, and it's those two things that make me think so.

    fuck you
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #76 - September 05, 2011, 09:18 PM

    Your objections to Saffire's points.

    Well, I didn't want to expand because I have no desire to argue with her. She's the kind of person who isn't even willing to hear anything other than herself and every time I prove my point she tells me I've misunderstood her.

    First of all, the concept of intelligence isn't very scientifically sound. It's very controversial, and many have argued that it's environmental rather than genetic -- at least to a large degree. People are more "intelligent" because they live in families, societies, etc. that encourage and foster education, and obviously because they have the right tools to expand their minds.

    Using the intelligence argument is a classical way of privileged people to deny their privilege. They use biology to explain their privilege away, as if the only thing that distinguishes them from less well off people is biological and therefore they can't do anything about it. Which of course is not true. Even if some people were more intelligent than others, does that mean they have a right to be better off socioeconomically because of it? That seems as arbitrary as saying people have a right to be better off because they're born white. If there were people who were truly less intelligent, it just means we as a society need to spend more resources on them to get them on an equal footing with the more intelligent people.

    Second, we all, especially privileged people, trample on other people. We live in an oppressive, globalized society, and whether we like it or not, most things we buy and consume in one way or another oppressed and exploited someone  somewhere around the world in the process. The least you can do as a privileged person is admit that.

    Third, she thinks underprivileged people have as much responsibility as privileged people to help others. Yet it is we, the privileged, who consume most of the products and as such are responsible for most of the oppression. And let's not forget that privileged people are more capable of helping than underprivileged people. Not only do they have more to spend, but even when it comes to non-financial means, they have more security and stability. Some people barely have time to make enough to put food on the table. Others don't even have that.

    Fourth, she said she's not even interested in "capitalism, the system, etc.", which really proves my point (even though I didn't quote it) that she's not even willing to open her mind and consider that her actions affect other people -- and that's the worst kind of privilege possible.
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #77 - September 05, 2011, 09:23 PM

    I'm still not quite sure I understand -- are you saying that everyone should be socioeconomically equal? Doesn't that remove the motivation for working harder and being more innovative, in order to earn more?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #78 - September 05, 2011, 09:24 PM

    Do you work harder because you want to earn more than anyone else, or because you want to earn more than what you yourself have?
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #79 - September 05, 2011, 09:27 PM

    Do you work harder because you want to earn more than anyone else, or because you want to earn more than what you yourself have?


    Personally, for the second reason. But studies do show that there's a correlation between status (as in, how much more you earn than your neighbors/college friends/the general population) and happiness, more than that between wealth and happiness.

    But anyway, even if it's for the second reason, wouldn't that still create inequalities? I'm guessing some people would definitely work harder than others.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #80 - September 05, 2011, 09:29 PM

    I'm still not quite sure I understand -- are you saying that everyone should be socioeconomically equal? Doesn't that remove the motivation for working harder and being more innovative, in order to earn more?


    1. Socioeconomic equality does not preclude the presence of incentives, nor does it mean all people will be totally equal in terms of possessions or anything else-- it simply means that no one has an undue material advantage over anyone else in terms of social power and that whatever differences that may exist do not develop into class structure.

    2. Korolev and Kalashnikov never got rich off their inventions, but their creations were profoundly influential.

    fuck you
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #81 - September 05, 2011, 09:33 PM

    I have no problem with people making more because they worked harder than others. What I have a problem with is people thinking they have a right to extract labour from other people because they somehow made enough money that they are able to do so. And there will certainly not be as much inequality if people weren't able to extract labour from others. No one can make £150,000 a year with their own blood, sweat and tears.
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #82 - September 05, 2011, 09:36 PM

    Nobody has undue material advantages? So nobody can have more wealth? That's silly and fact, it would remove the incentive to work hard. Why should I work 24/7 when I can take it easy and be the same off. You honestly think that removal of this money/wealth thing will make the world better?  Cheesy

    Further, I clearly said that this is a topic I don't really understand, not through arrogance but lack of focus. I can't read legal things too even when they intrigue me cos the topic is boring to me.

    Fact is you people are just villifying anf attacking me for no justifiable reason. How would you appreciate me extending my views on right and wrong into your lives? We all live in a way that is unpalatable in some ways to others. What gives any of you the right to tell me I can't live how I want, to make me the ultimate evil villain, the cause of poverty, the oppressor of the poor, the trampler of people? This topic is ridiculous and exists purely to bash me- if not continue to discuss the principles and leave me out of it cos I don't want to know  finmad
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #83 - September 05, 2011, 09:36 PM

    You really don't get it do you? People who don't have much money get fucking annoyed when well-off people like you complain about their tax burden. Again, you're not the only one with money here, but, so far as I've seen, you're the only one with money complaining about the taxes you have to pay, and you're the only one who used their wealth to put down another member (or are you having amnesia about the nasty shit you said to asbie when you first joined chat about how pitiful he is because he's broke and you live so well and have so much money?). Like I said it's not that you have money that pisses me off, it's that you're obnoxious about it, and it's those two things that make me think so.


    Ohhhhh I see now.

    I thought this all stemmed from this thread.

    Yea, no that kind of attitude stinks.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #84 - September 05, 2011, 09:40 PM

    cos I don't want to know


    Indeed you do not.

    fuck you
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #85 - September 05, 2011, 09:43 PM

    It's funny, Saffire tries to justify herself but just keeps going further down.
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #86 - September 05, 2011, 09:44 PM

    Ohhhhh I see now.

    I thought this all stemmed from this thread.

    Yea, no that kind of attitude stinks.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ysMt_9JnyI

    fuck you
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #87 - September 05, 2011, 09:45 PM

     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    NAILED IT!!!
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #88 - September 05, 2011, 10:04 PM


    (or are you having amnesia about the nasty shit you said to asbie when you first joined chat about how pitiful he is because he's broke and you live so well and have so much money?)



    Despite I left this lame ass bashing of me I feel I must respond to this allegation. Your making this remark out of context shows your desperation to prove me the villain. You take a reactionary statement from me as a proof that I think I'm better cos I have money? How ignorant and myopic of you. A statement I made when attacked by many of you, a statement I made after a series of intense arguments with my family, when I was feeling particularly shit. Quote it- quote it in context.

    write what I said, what preceded it, what initiated it. Show the reality instead of clutching at straws to justify your baseless attack
  • Re: World Atheist Convention 2012
     Reply #89 - September 05, 2011, 10:08 PM

    I don't have the logs, but you can ask Kod for them he probably does. Though I wouldn't post them here if I were you, because if I'm recalling correctly, the context will make you look even worse.

    If it were just that one thing I wouldn't continue to carry a grudge, but it was that in combination with your whining in the "Charity or Welfare" thread about how much you and your rich boyfriend have to pay in taxes to finance lazy welfare recipients, along with a lot of other stuff you've written here, that gives me the impression you are a smug, shallow, narcissist who looks down upon those with less than you.

    fuck you
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