Gender is a social construct argh!

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #60 - October 03, 2011, 03:32 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 03:20 PM
Most gay people I have met, usually say they were born that way. But if you say it is due to society, then there might be some hope for them.

Or am I confusing gender with sexuality lol

You're not getting it. People can be born gay, but they don't fit the gay role naturally, they put it on, whether consciously or otherwise. A gay guy fits a certain role, look and lifestyle, so does a lesbian, so does a straight guy/girl. Those acts are social constructs.

I know someone who moved from a conservative Muslim country to the US and consequently "found herself" as a lesbian. Now you'd be able to tell she's a lesbian from a mile away. That doesn't mean she's not really a lesbian, she just became one. Even I changed a lot since moving to a totally different culture. It doesn't mean I'm not myself anymore, I just became different. I've tried so hard going back to my old self, but there's no going back, because the guy four years ago is not the same guy today. Our personalities are social constructs, literally acts we perform to fit the role we believe best reflect us in the society we're living in.
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #61 - October 03, 2011, 03:32 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 03:25 PM
imo society works much better with defined roles (on the whole).

Who exactly would define those roles in your idealized society?

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 03:28 PM
Lol, before i get tarred with the homophobic brush as well, i don't want to cure them.

Racial prejudices usually come packaged with homophobic tendencies and misogynistic tendencies - we've seen it before

For someone who is not out to find a "cure" for Teh Gayz, you sure seem to be very interested in finding one.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #62 - October 03, 2011, 03:51 PM

Dont you just hate it when you have written a concise reply, fairly lengthy, then you press post and then you find you have been logged out aaarrrggghhh.

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For someone who is not out to find a "cure" for Teh Gayz, you sure seem to be very interested in finding one

I honestly don't care, it was a question evoked form the discussion is gender socially constructed. That is all.

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Racial prejudices usually come packaged with homophobic tendencies and misogynistic tendencies - we've seen it before

Oh how convienient for you to pigeon-hole me. Questioning social construct is not misogynistic - I have written elsewhere on this baord that imo men and women are different, not in terms of superior or inferior but complimentary. As long as both men and women are equal under law, is what matters.

As for racial prejudice - saying that blacks run faster than whites over very short distances, would that count as racial prejudice?

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #63 - October 03, 2011, 03:54 PM

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Who exactly would define those roles in your idealized society?

Not god, if that is what you think. I don't think it would be practical to have anyone define those roles. perhaps when i say defined roles, I really mean the roles of fathers and mothers, rather than men and women.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #64 - October 03, 2011, 03:56 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 03:51 PM
Oh how convienient for you to pigeon-hole me.

You've managed to do that to yourself more than once.

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 03:51 PM
saying that blacks run faster than whites over very short distances, would that count as racial prejudice?

Unless you can prove that all blacks run faster than all whites in every case, then yes it does qualify as prejudice.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #65 - October 03, 2011, 03:57 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 03:54 PM
Not god, if that is what you think. I don't think it would be practical to have anyone define those roles. perhaps when i say defined roles, I really mean the roles of fathers and mothers, rather than men and women.

You didn't answer the question. Who would define gender roles in your idealized society? You say roles should be defined, then you say it's not practical to have anyone define them... that's a contradiction.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #66 - October 03, 2011, 03:59 PM

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Unless you can prove that all blacks run faster than all whites in every case, then yes it does qualify as prejudice.

Lol - you get my point - I must stop generalizing. I must stop generalizing. I must stop generalizing.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #67 - October 03, 2011, 04:04 PM

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You didn't answer the question. Who would define gender roles in your idealized society? You say roles should be defined, then you say it's not practical to have anyone define them... that's a contradiction.

Society should by way of government policy.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #68 - October 03, 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 04:04 PM
Society should by way of government policy.

What would be the government enforced gender roles, in your ideal society?

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #69 - October 03, 2011, 04:06 PM

instead of making mothers go to work(that's capitalism for you) and paying someone else to look after their kids, the government should pay mothers to look after their own kids -

I suppose the question is are nuclear families the best building blocks for society. In my opinion they are.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #70 - October 03, 2011, 04:09 PM

What would this government do to women who want to work outside the home and to men who want to raise kids instead of work outside the home? What would this government do to LGBTQ people, and to couples who do not have children?

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #71 - October 03, 2011, 04:11 PM

Quote from: allat on October 03, 2011, 03:56 PM
Unless you can prove that all blacks run faster than all whites in every case, then yes it does qualify as prejudice.

Disagree. It's merely a generalization. It would only be a prejudice if you automatically assumed random Black dude X could sprint faster than random White dude Y based solely on their races, and, even then I don't think it's a harmful or negative prejudice in and of itself.

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 04:06 PM
instead of making mothers go to work(that's capitalism for you) and paying someone else to look after their kids, the government should pay mothers to look after their own kids -

In many countries they do for the indigent, and in some (like Germany) they do regardless of income.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #72 - October 03, 2011, 04:16 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 03, 2011, 04:11 PM
Disagree. It's merely a generalization. It would only be a prejudice if you automatically assumed random Black dude X could sprint faster than random White dude Y based solely on their races, and, even then I don't think it's a harmful or negative prejudice in and of itself.

Prejudice is by definition a generalization. Saying all X people make crumpets better than all Y people is what would lead a prejudiced person to say that a random X will make better crumpets than a random Y person.

Prejudices can be "positive" or "negative" but they are still prejudices and often what is seen as a positive prejudice just has another side to it that is negative. E.g. d.a. here think Jews are superior in intellect and thus control the world; he may say it's a "positive prejudice" but the flip side of it is generalization, dehumanisation and resentment of a perceived "superior" race.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #73 - October 03, 2011, 04:18 PM

At the moment some mothers do not have the choice to NOT to work. That should be rectified.

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What would this government do to women who want to work outside the home and to men who want to raise kids instead of work outside the home?

No problemo - one decides to look after the kids, one works - still defined as such - one parent at least is looking after the kids.

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What would this government do to LGBTQ people, and to couples who do not have children?

My concern is with those couples who do have children.

Like I say imo families are the best building blocks for society.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #74 - October 03, 2011, 04:20 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 04:18 PM
At the moment some mothers do not have the choice to NOT to work. That should be rectified.

That has more to do with the structure of capitalism than with gender roles. You can't rectify this without seriously overhauling the economic systems around the planet that are rooted in capitalism.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #75 - October 03, 2011, 04:25 PM

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That has more to do with the structure of capitalism than with gender roles. You can't rectify this without seriously overhauling the economic systems around the planet that are rooted in capitalism

Possibly capitalism is the main proponent of destroying gender 'rules' - treat everyone the same. All become individual consumers. Lol then again communism did the same for different reasons.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #76 - October 03, 2011, 04:27 PM

I'm not talking about capitalism's ideology but capitalism's reality. Without both parents having to work long hours outside in some wage-slavery or another, most families can't afford the consumerist lifestyles capitalism needs to thrive.

Communism as practiced in USSR etc. was just state-capitalism i.e. the state was the boss and all people were its employees, it was in practice, not that different from capitalism.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #77 - October 03, 2011, 04:28 PM

If you believe that stable nuclear families are the best building blocks for society then government policy should reflect that.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #78 - October 03, 2011, 04:30 PM

Why nuclear families and not communal families or any other type of family?

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Reply #79 - October 03, 2011, 04:34 PM

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Why nuclear families and not communal families or any other type of family?

Would other types of families work in our great city civilisations - human progress has generally tended to be a move towards cities and not kibbutz etc.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #80 - October 03, 2011, 04:36 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 04:34 PM
Would other types of families work in our great city civilisations - human progress has generally tended to be a move towards cities and not kibbutz etc.

"human progress"? What is that? Define what you mean by that. And how does capitalism feature in it, or doesn't feature in it. Why can there not be other types of families in cities or anywhere else?

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #81 - October 03, 2011, 04:40 PM

Quote from: allat on October 03, 2011, 04:16 PM
Prejudice is by definition a generalization.

But all generalizations are not prejudice.

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Saying all X people make crumpets better than all Y people is what would lead a prejudiced person to say that a random X will make better crumpets than a random Y person.

Yeah but he didn't say that first bit, he never said ALL, he simply said:

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blacks run faster than whites over very short distances

And I don't think even most ignorant and racist people would believe that ALL blacks run faster than ALL whites over very short distances. Without qualifiers, I think it's more likely to be taken as meaning "most" rather than "all"

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Prejudices can be "positive" or "negative" but they are still prejudices and often what is seen as a positive prejudice just has another side to it that is negative. E.g. d.a. here think Jews are superior in intellect and thus control the world; he may say it's a "positive prejudice" but the flip side of it is generalization, dehumanisation and resentment of a perceived "superior" race.

But the reality is that we all base parts of our life and decision making based on prejudices and generalizations. I think the line gets drawn when those prejudices either lead to irrational condemnation of an entire class of people or prevent someone from giving an individual person from X group of people a chance to show you what they are really like as an individual rather than simply the generalization of the group they are from. Do petty prejudices like "Jews are smart" "Black dudes got big dicks" and "Asians are good at math" really mean shit if we treat people from all groups with respect as social equals? I think it makes sense to separate the harmless prejudices from the harmful ones, as it's unjust to lump someone who has a positive prejudice about a certain group but stands firmly on principles of social equality in with someone who is just a plain ole fuckin racist/bigot. I mean it's not like everyone who thinks Jews are superior in intellect also thinks they control the world-- the negative flipside isn't always there for everyone holding the positive prejudice.

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #82 - October 03, 2011, 04:48 PM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 03, 2011, 04:40 PM
But all generalizations are not prejudice.

Of course, but take the person within context of their other statements if you will, and then gauge where they are on the short spectrum between generalization and prejudice.

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 03, 2011, 04:40 PM
Without qualifiers, I think it's more likely to be taken as meaning "most" rather than "all"

Someone who makes sweeping judgement can at some point expect to have those generalizations questioned, especially when they rarely ever bother to put such qualifiers in their language.

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 03, 2011, 04:40 PM
Do petty prejudices like "Jews are smart" "Black dudes got big dicks" and "Asians are good at math" really mean shit if we treat people from all groups with respect as social equals?

Maybe you do, but not everyone who makes sweeping judgments like that actually does. People's language only reflects their thoughts and if you are capable of having such nuances wherein you can say Asians are good at math, and then not really apply it to all Asians and not resent Asians or try to take away any social capital from them, does not mean others who say that are the same as you.

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on October 03, 2011, 04:40 PM
I mean it's not like everyone who thinks Jews are superior in intellect also thinks they control the world-- the negative flipside isn't always there for everyone holding the positive prejudice.

Yep, I get your point. But I will still insist that positive and negative prejudices are not that separate once you look beneath the surface (in instances where the person actually believes them, not just a joke or a tongue-in-cheek remark they made).

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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #83 - October 03, 2011, 04:56 PM

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"human progress"? What is that? Define what you mean by that. And how does capitalism feature in it, or doesn't feature in it. Why can there not be other types of families in cities or anywhere else?

AAArrgghh it happened again, twice having to re login, telling me I am spending too much time too early in the day.

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"human progress"? What is that? Define what you mean by that. And how does capitalism feature in it, or doesn't feature in it. Why can there not be other types of families in cities or anywhere else?

perhaps 'progress' was the wrong word, what I meant was from information I have read, most human migration seems to be from less urbanized areas to the cities. I don't think it is practical to have communal families in cities.

As for capitalism - whence one there were nuclear families - the breadwinner went to work and the capitalist had one member of the family to be the consumer for all the family - split the family up - undefine roles and you multiply the number of consumers.

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I mean it's not like everyone who thinks Jews are superior in intellect also thinks they control the world

it's not as if they conspire to rule the world, it is just the way ther cookie crumbled. Some jews (mostly cultural/secular ones) are involved in money markets/capitalism which imo shape the world.

Lol - I really have to get some work done now. Adios

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #84 - October 03, 2011, 04:57 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on October 03, 2011, 03:51 PM
As for racial prejudice - saying that blacks run faster than whites over very short distances, would that count as racial prejudice?

Probably yes, but it does depend on the context.
Nevertheless the assertion you made is factually untrue. Just because some black people are good at something does not imply that black people in general will be good at it.

Successful black sprinters are almost excursively Jamaicans and African-Americans. The rest of Africa pretty much sucks at sprinting. Just ask Kipketer.

On the other hand Kenyans dominate long distance running. Except it's not Kenyans as such but rather individuals from a tiny region in the Rift Valley called Nandi.
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Re: Gender is a social construct argh!
Reply #85 - October 03, 2011, 05:11 PM

That info is way too specific.
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Reply #86 - October 03, 2011, 05:58 PM

That's exactly the point.

It's how generalizations work - trait that is only applicable to a tiny group of people is spread onto a whole group based on a perceived in-group marker; in this case race or skin colour.

Allat is right to point out that generalizations are bad as such regardless of the fact that in a specific case they might be seen as 'positive' because those same generalizations can just as easily be detrimental in a different setting.
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Reply #87 - October 03, 2011, 06:31 PM

Quote from: allat on October 03, 2011, 04:48 PM
Maybe you do, but not everyone who makes sweeping judgments like that actually does. People's language only reflects their thoughts and if you are capable of having such nuances wherein you can say Asians are good at math, and then not really apply it to all Asians and not resent Asians or try to take away any social capital from them, does not mean others who say that are the same as you.

Sounds like you've made a prejudiced generalization against those who make prejudiced generalizations. I win.

Quote from: Kenan on October 03, 2011, 04:57 PM
The rest of Africa pretty much sucks at sprinting. Just ask Kipketer.

On the other hand Kenyans dominate long distance running. Except it's not Kenyans as such but rather individuals from a tiny region in the Rift Valley called Nandi.

But how big are their penises?

Welcome back by the way Kenan.

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Reply #88 - October 03, 2011, 06:38 PM

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Reply #89 - October 03, 2011, 06:44 PM

I never seen that smiley put to good use before now.

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