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 Topic: The Kalam Argument

 (Read 27214 times)
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  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #30 - October 06, 2011, 10:22 AM

    Perhaps you two could bitch at each other in private rather than reducing a potentially interesting thread to petty squabbling?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #31 - October 06, 2011, 10:35 AM

    Okay, for the first time ever here are my objections to the KCA.  It doesn't look like I am going to use them against Hamza, so I may as well post them Smiley


    Thanks for posting. Vid in the works?
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #32 - October 06, 2011, 10:37 AM

    I suppose I could make one, but this was just off the top of my head and not a script from a video Smiley

    Some credible counter arguments would be good I suppose.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #33 - October 06, 2011, 10:37 AM

    one thing is for sure.. the universe did not 'begin to exist' at the big bang... i would only go so far as to say the universe 'as we know it' began to take shape at the big bang.


    so pray enlighten me.  You say it is sure ie certain, a fact!  That the universe did not begin to exist....  Are you saying it is eternal?  or are you simply saying you know it didn't "begin" at point A as you know which point it did exist at. or are you simply confused and being sloppy with language?
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #34 - October 06, 2011, 11:30 AM

    Science can only ever talk about the 'universe as we know it' because it's about observations. There are theories of what other things maybe beyond our observable universe

    We can theorize about what may have been... 'before' the big bang, but we know the event 'big bang' was the beginnings to 'evolution' to our current state of the universe as we see it.

    And when people talk of universe, they talk about the VISIBLE (including other EM waves Tongue) universe.

    Not like religion talks of this 'ultimate' all encapsulating fabric of reality kind of 'universe'

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #35 - October 06, 2011, 11:43 AM

    so pray enlighten me.  You say it is sure ie certain, a fact!  That the universe did not begin to exist....  Are you saying it is eternal?  or are you simply saying you know it didn't "begin" at point A as you know which point it did exist at. or are you simply confused and being sloppy with language?


    don't think you read my post carefully. i specifically said that it did not begin to exist 'at the big bang'. this is because the singularity is not 'nothing' as many theists like to imply.
    so i don't know dude.. am i being sloppy with language, or are you just being sloppy with reading? or perhaps your reading comprehension needs some brushing up.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #36 - October 06, 2011, 10:08 PM

    Philosophy always triumphs when science triumphs because philosophy brought science. Wink



    Not really.

    Both philosophy and science started together. And while science triamphed in expaining reality philosophy failed miserably.

    Little Fly, Thy summer's play
    My thoughtless hand has brushed away.

    I too dance and drink, and sing,
    Till some blind hand shall brush my wing.

    Therefore I am a happy fly,
    If I live or if I die.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #37 - October 08, 2011, 04:09 PM

    rash here's WLC reply to criticisms of the KCA

    https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=150792504987652&comments

    i think u should go at WLC, forget tin pot missionaries like hamza..
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #38 - October 08, 2011, 05:36 PM

    That's a funny response, and a great example of using intuition to decide reality.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #39 - October 18, 2011, 07:32 PM

    Hi,

    I'm having a really rewarding discussion via youtube with a Catholic and he presented some variants of the Kalam argument to me. This is was my response.

    Quote
    Regarding the argument itself. I'm very rusty regarding debating formal theology, I have to research more into formal philosophy but I'm still unconvinced at the moment, but it has further inspired me to research into the argument further.

    But some rudimentary objections from myself;

    According to the argument God brought space-time, energy/matter, causality/time into existence.

    A major problem is that when we speak/know of something existing energy/matter and causality/time are implicit in the term existence. However if religious people claim that God brought these things into existence and his existence transcends time/causality, space/matter and space-time, then they aren't referring to God existing in any intelligible sense of the word.

    Therefore the argument tells us nothing about the nature of God, nor how to infer it. How would you derive God's attributes of omniscience, omnibenevolence and omnipotence from that premise. Or that God, is the God of your particular religion.

    We are able to observe and explain phenomena because they have an identity that is a consequence of space-time, time/causality, and space/matter.

    So my basic objections are;

    1) God doesn't exist in any meaningful sense of the word, and as a result isn't intelligible.

    Even if it is valid it point to deism not theism, because the God of theism is a personal intervening force, yet the universe can be observed to operate with impersonal laws.

    The cosmological argument IMO is based on inductive reasoning. We've only ever observed pre-existing things influence other pre-existing things in a chain of impersonal causality.

    Stating that God willed something into existence is a meaningless use of a verb, you can equally use the term spilled into the universe into existence. Because the term will, refers to a conscious entity using it's intention to execute an action - a conscious entity that exists in space-time, energy/matter and causality/time. The verb will can't be applied to God because he transcends all those things, I think it's a meaningless use of the verb.

    Also we can tell through observation that the God of theism is incredibly unlikely to exist, the universe operates due to a set of impersonal laws, and numinous experiences can be explained credibly by psychology and neurology.

    Also I've watched the presentations from Lawrence Krauss and Stephen Hawking showing how God is unnecessary (not impossible but unnecessary) to explain the origins of the big bang.

    Here they are if you're interested;

    Stephen Hawking - Did God create the universe
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpb7NMR-XOo

    Lawrence Krauss - A universe from nothing
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo

    I think Carl Sagan put it eloquently and concisely;

    If we postulate that God created the universe and nothing created God, then why don't we save a step and say that nothing created the universe.

    If we postulate that God always existence, then why don't we save a step and say that the universe always existed.

    In my opinion the God of Theism is an unnecessary and superfluous explanation for the existence of any phenomena.

  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #40 - October 18, 2011, 07:44 PM

    Before anyone points out, yes my reply was heavily influenced by theramintrees' 'there are no gods' series.

    It's my personal favourite objection the Kalam argument. The Islamic concept of God in classical aqida is blatant in referring to something that doesn't exist in any intelligible sense of the word.



  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #41 - October 19, 2011, 02:57 PM

    how comes the kalam COSMOLOGICAL theory is never proliferated by Cosmologists but by layman theologians ?


  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #42 - October 19, 2011, 02:58 PM

    Because it's shit?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #43 - October 19, 2011, 08:59 PM

    how comes the kalam COSMOLOGICAL theory is never proliferated by Cosmologists but by layman theologians ?


    WLC is not a lay theologian. He is a prolific and highly-adept waffler.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #44 - October 21, 2011, 11:27 AM

    ^i meant his a layman in cosmology  Smiley
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #45 - November 16, 2011, 05:29 AM

    Not really.

    Both philosophy and science started together. And while science triamphed in expaining reality philosophy failed miserably.



    They're not enemies, philosophy and science.

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #46 - November 16, 2011, 05:37 AM

    Science is applied philosophy, just as engineering is applied science.

    Philosophy -> Science -> Engineering

    Absract Concepts -> Research and Knowledge -> Real life building and applications

    Philosophy are the original embers of our mind's ascent from apehood. To put down philosophy as if it's opposed to science shows a lack of understanding of either.

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #47 - November 16, 2011, 05:51 AM

     thnkyu

    I'm open for debate (of why we should re-/embrace Islam), but I will no longer participate in this forum. Message me if you need anything. Good luck and may you all find your way... again...
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #48 - November 16, 2011, 08:09 AM

    Because it's shit?

    This, do you really think many  cosmologists would bother refuting this crap which is basically special pleading+argument from incredulity+god of the gaps (2.0)?

    PS: Vic Stenger did debate Craig IIRC.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #49 - November 16, 2011, 12:00 PM

    The MSS show discusses the Kalam cosmological argument here from 3:00...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV0JoQxBxro


  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #50 - November 18, 2011, 01:18 AM



    Someone is countering this with some pretty solid arguments:

    KHYRIAH11:

    WHHHAAAAATTTTT?Huh??!!!!!!!! And those that believe this say religion is stupid? "The uncertainty principle allows this much stuff to be created out of nothing"

    By definition then that would be an act of "supernatural". The entire video is flawed because science tells us that matter time and space came into existence at the same moment. One would have to ask since space has not yet been created then "WHERE" was this volume when it popped up out of nowhere.

    And how did it use time, even the smallest amount of time, to form when time itself has yet to be created. And even being that small it would still have a difficult time forming when their is no space not even 10 billionth of an atom amout of space. Another argument giving physical properties to something that cannot exist outside of our known physical world. And another question might be posed is if this could happen to cause a "BIG BANG" of such proportions to account for all there is in our known universe then why hasnt this happened again to an extent to blow us all away to kingdom come. Are we really just that lucky that another so called "volume" hasnt formed outside our universe, over the course of 13 billion yrs i might add, to cause an even greater "BIG BANG" to blow us all away in an instant. Thats luck if i've ever seen it. Even if this was "antimatter" or the "God particle" it would be useless without any matter to collide with causing nothing to ever occur.

    The only way for a scientist to get out of this one would be to give eternal properties to it. But unfortunately they would have to come up with a million new theories as they already subjugated this "volume" to the laws of matter time and space. Something eternal is why the universe was created NOT anything that was created out of nothing. If there was ever a point where absolutely nothing existed then absolutely nothing would exist now. Period point blank. Scientist know this and that is why they come up with theories such as the "multiverse theory". They truly understand the principle that nothing only comes from nothing and have accepted that Something had to have always existed to account for the "somethings" that are in existence today. They recognize that it would have to be "ALL POWERFUL" thats why they give this multiverse so many capabilties even supernatural ones to make up its own laws. They just choose not to believe its God because once you do this, this means their is someone out there that, MORE THAN LIKELY, u are accountable to. So its up to the individual to whether or not you choose to believe it was God or something else but one thing is for sure. THERE IS SOMETHING OUT THERE THAT IS ETERNAL AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. Its up to u to figure out what it is. And to figure out if its accidentally creating being that its "ALL POWERFUL" or if its purposely creating. U figure it out and measure the true evidence to see. ITs actually obvious. Hope this helps.

  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #51 - November 18, 2011, 04:01 AM


    By definition then that would be an act of "supernatural".

    How so?
    Supernatural: attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature

    Where does anyone attribute anything to a force beyond scientific understanding here?

    Quote
    The only way for a scientist to get out of this one would be to give eternal properties to it. But unfortunately they would have to come up with a million new theories as they already subjugated this "volume" to the laws of matter time and space. Something eternal is why the universe was created NOT anything that was created out of nothing. If there was ever a point where absolutely nothing existed then absolutely nothing would exist now. Period point blank. Scientist know this and that is why they come up with theories such as the "multiverse theory". They truly understand the principle that nothing only comes from nothing and have accepted that Something had to have always existed to account for the "somethings" that are in existence today.

    Scientists "come up" with those hypotheses because they match reality (as in consistent with what we  know now). And yes, nothing as in void could not have possibly existed. And even *IF* god exists, it's still *something* - no matter what properties of god are, it/he/she is still not *nothing*.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #52 - November 18, 2011, 10:44 AM

    By definition then that would be an act of "supernatural". The entire video is flawed because science tells us that matter time and space came into existence at the same moment. One would have to ask since space has not yet been created then "WHERE" was this volume when it popped up out of nowhere.

    And how did it use time, even the smallest amount of time, to form when time itself has yet to be created.


    Okay, I think the problem here is as many theists do you assume that the expansion of our universe was

    1: The "creation" of this universe.
    2: The "beginning" of time.

    Regarding point 1.  According to the current laws of physics we would expect to see that the energy which "formed" our universe already existed and was just altered.  The big bang would therefore be a reconfiguration of something which already existed (probably in the form of energy) rather than "creation from nothing."  So if there was something there then it changed rather than being created.

    Regarding point 2. It was the beginning of OUR time and space, that does not automatically mean it was the beginning of ALL time and space.  Our time/space might be the result of a rip in some other time/space through which a load of shit spilled and formed our universe.

    The answer is "not enough data", and until there is enough data it is too early to posit an answer, especially a supernatural one (which is far less probable than a natural one.)

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #53 - November 18, 2011, 12:15 PM

    So you are implying that there was no nothing before the universe got initiated or came into existence ?

    I didn't write the above stuff, I saw that guy had made this argument and i considered it smart since if there was nothing before, like Nothing in the sense of no space, no time no matter and if there was  nothing of this how did it come to be and we know that if u say one of this came to be first then that one is dependent of the rest of those factors and can't exist alone.

    Matter can't exist without space, space can't exist without matter and time.


  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #54 - November 18, 2011, 12:20 PM

    So you are implying that there was no nothing before the universe got initiated or came into existence ?


    Do you mean "Are you inferring"?  I am not implying any such thing, I am simply stating that we do not know.  All we really know is that the universe is expanding, and there is evidence that it was once very small.  How small it was I don't think we know, where the stuff came from that was small we certainly don't know.

    I didn't write the above stuff, I saw that guy had made this argument and i considered it smart since if there was nothing before, like Nothing in the sense of no space, no time no matter and if there was  nothing of this how did it come to be and we know that if u say one of this came to be first then that one is dependent of the rest of those factors and can't exist alone.


    And my point is that we do not know there was nothing at all, we currently don't have the data. 

    Matter can't exist without space, space can't exist without matter and time.


    And why isn't the logical conclusion from this that OUR space/time is a leaked bubble of some other chunk of space/time?  When we see a bubble of air leak out of a punctured tyre do we assume the air leaked from within the tyre, and that a supernatural entity created the bubble from nothing?

    Get the data BEFORE reaching the conclusion.  There is nothing wrong with "We don't know......yet!"

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #55 - November 18, 2011, 01:14 PM

    Hume argued that causation is a psychological, not a metaphysical, principle, one whose origins lay in the human propensity to assume necessary connections between events when all we really see is contiguity and succession. Kant seconded Hume by arguing that causation is a category built into our minds as one of the many ways in which we order our experience. Sartre felt that the universe was "gratuitous." Bertrand Russell claimed that the question of origins was tangled in meaningless verbiage and that we must be content to declare that the universe is "just there and that's all."

    Hume provided powerful critiques of the main arguments for God's existence. Against the cosmological argument (Aquinas' third argument), he argued that the idea of a necessarily existing being is absurd. Hume stated, "Whatever we can conceive as existent, we can also conceive as nonexistent." He also asked why the ultimate source of the universe could not be the entire universe itself, eternal and uncaused, without a God?

    Secondly, the premise of causality has been arrived at via a posteriori (inductive) reasoning, which is dependent on experience. Hume highlighted this problem of induction and argued that causal relations were not true a priori (deductively). However as to whether inductive or deductive reasoning is more valuable still remains a matter of debate, with the general conclusion being that neither is prominent. Even though causality applies to the known world, it does not necessarily apply to the universe at large. In other words, it is unwise to draw conclusions from an extrapolation of causality beyond experience.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #56 - November 19, 2011, 07:29 AM

    Someone is countering this with some pretty solid arguments:


    In addition to what the other dudes above me have written... It's the God of the gaps argument but dressed up. Like Rash pointed out we simply don't know - and may never know.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #57 - November 19, 2011, 10:25 AM

    The whole universe is my imagination. Prove me wrong.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #58 - November 19, 2011, 10:26 AM

    Correction, the whole universe is in fact - porridge.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGP7X_nwemU&feature=channel_video_title

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: The Kalam Argument
     Reply #59 - November 19, 2011, 11:03 AM

    In addition to what the other dudes above me have written... It's the God of the gaps argument but dressed up. Like Rash pointed out we simply don't know - and may never know.


    I keep hearing this God of Gaps, can you elaborate me what it means more precisely.

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