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 Topic: It's not Islam....

 (Read 11903 times)
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  • It's not Islam....
     OP - November 18, 2011, 06:00 AM

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/sep/30/this-brutality-is-not-islam

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #1 - November 18, 2011, 07:12 AM

    That is just how Muslims are, always shifting the responsibility with the phrase "it's not Islam", despite the fact that the barbaric act of killing apostates has been sanctioned by Muhammad himself according to the Sunnah.

    In the Islamic world, acts of violence, terror and barbarism that is directly attributed to the religion of Islam are simply excused away with the phrase, "that's not Islam". It doesn't matter that gays and apostates are being jailed or hanged in Islamic countries all over the world, that's not Islam. It doesn't matter that women are being discriminated and brought down as second class citizens, that is not Islam. It doesn't matter that every day there seems to be at least one report of terrorist acts perpretrated by Muslims in the name of Islam, that is not Islam. Nothing bad is ever Islam, despite the fact that these bad deeds are written in the Quran with a permanent marker.

    This kind of mentality is just disgusting. This is what Dawkins meant when he says that the moderates of Islam are protecting the hardliners and extremists. Whenever the hardliners and extremists do something horrible, the moderates always brush it off as "it's not Islam."

    On a related note, I've written before a guide to debating against any Muslim who uses the "It's not Islam" excuse to justify horrible deeds done by Muslims:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=18265.0


  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #2 - November 18, 2011, 12:25 PM

    So killing of Apostates according to the Quran and Muhamed is not allowed ?

  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #3 - November 18, 2011, 12:57 PM

    Quote from: truth_seeker
    That is just how Muslims are, always shifting the responsibility with the phrase "it's not Islam", despite the fact that the barbaric act of killing apostates has been sanctioned by Muhammad himself according to the Sunnah.


    And here we have the rub. According to CEMB bigwig Hassan Radwan:
    Quote
    Regardless of how you or I wish to define Islamit is not up to us but those who call themselves Muslims. I would no more impose my view that Christianity clearly considers homosexuality a sin, on a Christian who does not regard it as a sin – than I would impose my view that the Qur’an clearly allows a man to hit his wife on a Muslim who interprets; “Hit” as; “Leave her alone” – regardless of how absurd I may think those views to be.


    This viewpoint is supported by a large, perhaps majority, constituency at CEMB and woe betide anyone who takes issue with it.

    If one accepts Hassan Radwan's premise it follows:

    1) The article's author defines HIMSELF as a "Muslim"

    Therefore

    2) HIS "nice version" of Islam has an equally valid claim to be called "Islam" as any other "version" (and it should be accepted without question that he himself genuinely believes in it)

    Therefore

    3) No one should seek to "impose" their views on him by challenging anything he has written in this article.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #4 - November 18, 2011, 01:05 PM

    You are full of it like always DH. Hassan is spot on. A Muslim doesnt necessarily believe or follow everything Islam mandates. Homosexuality is a sin and punishable with dead according to islamic fiqh. But its the individual Muslim who defines himself/herself. That means if he agrees wiith that or not. If he does it - then you should condemn it.

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #5 - November 18, 2011, 01:13 PM

    @ ^ Al-Ma`arri. So Mehdi Hassan's assertions in the recent guardian article he wrote should go unchallenged?

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #6 - November 18, 2011, 01:16 PM

    That means if he agrees wiith that or not. If he does it - then you should condemn it.


    I don't condemn it (ie not doing the nasty things Allah likes the believers to do)

    Sorry I misread A-M's words.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #7 - November 18, 2011, 01:21 PM

    I think it's ok to punch apostates who become Christians.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #8 - November 18, 2011, 01:25 PM

    @^posthuman. Watch it. Although you are obviously joking you could get a "strike" for "inciting violence".

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #9 - November 18, 2011, 01:51 PM

    There is absolutely nothing wrong at all in deriving your own version of Islam that suits you. In fact, I think this is what most moderate muslims do. I've seen gay muslims who still believe in Islam despite the clear fact that the Quran and Sunnah hates and despises gays and wants them dead. Belief is a human right, and whatever version of Islam anybody want to believe in is his own business.

    However, when it comes to criticism, these same Muslims need to understand that whatever version of Islam that they believe in is completely irrelevant. There is only ONE real Islam, and that is the Islam that is written in the Quran, the Sunnah, and the Siraa. And this is the only version of Islam that is relevant.

    Anyone who has ever debated against another Muslim knows how incredibly infuriating it is when they use the "It's not Islam" tactic. You tell them that the hadith itself says that women are stupid creatures, and then they tell you that there are many muslimah scientists, doctors, leaders, etc. You tell them Islam permits slavery and child marriage, and then they you that most muslims don't practice them anymore. It's a completely dishonest tactic that intends to draw attention away from the real sources of Islam (scripture), and instead offering you with their own candy-coated version of Islam.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #10 - November 18, 2011, 02:01 PM



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hpfqFt-0Q

    he is a confused fool speaks and writes like headless chicken..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #11 - November 18, 2011, 03:55 PM

    Anyone who has ever debated against another Muslim knows how incredibly infuriating it is when they use the "It's not Islam" tactic. You tell them that the hadith itself says that women are stupid creatures, and then they tell you that there are many muslimah scientists, doctors, leaders, etc. You tell them Islam permits slavery and child marriage, and then they you that most muslims don't practice them anymore. It's a completely dishonest tactic that intends to draw attention away from the real sources of Islam (scripture), and instead offering you with their own candy-coated version of Islam.


    To be fair to Mehdi Hassan, I don't particularly think he is being intentionally dishonest, and I don't think he is using the "Its not Islam" argument to detract from criticism as is so often the case. Reading the article, he is using that argument to condemn the Muslim nations which make apostasy a crime.

    I personally don't think that what the scriptures say is relevant to modern societies unless it is practised in Modern societies.In  order for Islam to modernise, more Muslims need to come to the conclusion that the death penalty for apostasy "is not Islam", or child marriage "is not Islam", or gender apartheid "is not Islam". So if eventually apostasy from Islam becomes acceptable amongst Muslim, the fact that some Hadiths sanction the death penalty for apostasy would no longer be relevant.

    Quote
    However, when it comes to criticism, these same Muslims need to understand that whatever version of Islam that they believe in is completely irrelevant. There is only ONE real Islam, and that is the Islam that is written in the Quran, the Sunnah, and the Siraa. And this is the only version of Islam that is relevant.


    Lets say that the Islam of Muhammad is the one real Islam. The fact still remains that Muslims cannot agree on what the real Islam is! Hence the extraordinary number of factions within Islam. And if people who identify as Muslims are willing to go against backwards practices in traditional Islam, I only see that as a good thing. I think it is encouraging that people like Mehdi Hasan are willing to criticise orthodoxies within Islam.

    This kind of mentality is just disgusting. This is what Dawkins meant when he says that the moderates of Islam are protecting the hardliners and extremists. Whenever the hardliners and extremists do something horrible, the moderates always brush it off as "it's not Islam."


    But Mehdi Hasan says just that in the article!

    Meanwhile the silence from the world's Muslims – especially the UK's usually voluble Muslim organisations and self-appointed "community leaders" – has been shameful. The irony is that I have yet to come across an ordinary Muslim who agrees that a fellow believer who loses, changes or abandons his or her faith should be hanged. Yet frustratingly few Muslims are willing to speak out against such medieval barbarism. We mumble excuses, avert our eyes.

    It is true that the "Its not Islam" excuse is annoying when used to detract attention from criticism of Islam, but if you read this article, you can see that Mehdi Hasan is using this argument in order to criticise orthodoxies within the Muslim world and Islamic governments like Iran and Saudi.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #12 - November 18, 2011, 04:13 PM


    It is true that the  "Its not Islam" excuse is annoying when used to detract attention from criticism of Islam,...................

     To shut the people who are criticizing Islam., Smart fellow like Mehdi Hassan use that word "It is Not Islam" along with accusing the people with "Islamophobia" so that they  can crush the voices of  dissent in the bud..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #13 - November 19, 2011, 10:05 AM

    Quote from: truth
    There is absolutely nothing wrong at all in deriving your own version of Islam that suits you.


    Isn't that just what Mehdi Hasan, whom you criticize above, is doing? Either that or he has been misinformed or is being deliberately deceitful. Let us suppose it is the first: he has "derived" a "version of Islam" that "suits" him. However, he is also PROPAGATING that "version" to large non-Muslim readership. Is it desirable that the non-Muslims accept his "version" of Islam which he himself implicitly presents as the TRUE Islam as opposed to the allegedly "false" one of the apostate killers? If not then his assertions must be challenged which carries with it the possibility of undermining Mehdi Hassan's own (alleged) views and also those of "Muslims" with a similar outlook. Wouldn't this amount to doing exactly what Hassan Radwan warns against in the above quote in which he argues that if "Muslims" want to regard any amount of unIslamic belief and practice as Islam leave them to it.

    Quote
    and whatever version of Islam anybody want to believe in is his own business....


    Even if they are propagating these beliefs via the press, internet etc to the extent that non-Muslims encountering these sights might draw the conclusion that Islam is a "GAY-FRIENDLY" creed?




    Quote
    However, when it comes to criticism, these same Muslims need to understand that what version of Islam that they believe in is completely irrelevant. There is only ONE real Islam, and that is the Islam that is written in the Quran, the Sunnah, and the Siraa. And this is the only version of Islam that is relevant.


    Which kind of contradicts your above assertion that if a "Gay Muslim" wants to delude themselves that Allah is perfectly OK with anal sex among men it is "THEIR business".

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #14 - November 19, 2011, 10:30 AM

    Isn't that just what Mehdi Hasan, whom you criticize above, is doing? Either that or he has been misinformed or is being deliberately deceitful. Let us suppose it is the first: he has "derived" a "version of Islam" that "suits" him. However, he is also PROPAGATING that "version" to large non-Muslim readership. Is it desirable that the non-Muslims accept his "version" of Islam which he himself implicitly presents as the TRUE Islam as opposed to the allegedly "false" one of the apostate killers? If not then his assertions must be challenged which carries with it the possibility of undermining Mehdi Hassan's own (alleged) views and also those of "Muslims" with a similar outlook. Wouldn't this amount to doing exactly what Hassan Radwan warns against in the above quote in which he argues that if "Muslims" want to regard any amount of unIslamic belief and practice as Islam leave them to it.

    Even if they are propagating these beliefs via the press, internet etc to the extent that non-Muslims encountering these sights might draw the conclusion that Islam is a "GAY-FRIENDLY" creed?




    Which kind of contradicts your above assertion that if a "Gay Muslim" wants to delude themselves that Allah is perfectly OK with anal sex among men it is "THEIR business".


    What I'm saying is everyone has the right to believe in anything they want. If somebody wants to believe that Allah is the Moon god and had three daughters. then that's their business. If they want to believe that Islam permits you to go have wild sex parties, eat pork, drink beer, and being gay, then that's their business. They have the right to believe whatever they want.

    But these Muslims need to understand that whatever bid'ah version of Islam they believe in is NOT the true Islam. The REAL Islam is as written in the Islamic scriptures. If it's not in the scriptures or goes against the scriptures, then it is NOT Real Islam. These people need to understand this when there is an argument of Islamic criticism. They need to understand that when people are criticizing the REAL Islam, whatever bid'ah progressive new-age bullshit interpretation of Islam that's in their heads is completely IRRELEVANT.

    And what I hate about that writer in the Guardian is that despite saying that there is no earthly punishment in the Quran, he seems to have forgotten to include the many vehement remarks and curses Allah has for apostates in the Quran, as well as the infernal punishments in hell. He also seems to have forgotten to include the bunch of Hadiths that call for death for apostasy. He also apparently forgot to mention the massacre of apostates by the hands of Abu Bakar during the Ridda conflict. And he apparently forgot to mention that the death penalty is prescribe by all four of the major sunni schools of jurispudence. He intentional used misinformation in order to trick naive liberal westerners and non-muslims that the barbaric act of killing apostates is "not REAL Islam". This is kind of dishonesty is completely disgusting.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #15 - November 19, 2011, 11:12 AM

    truth_seeker

    Do you accept the Orthodox Islamic claims that the Qur'an is from Muhammad's time period and the Hadeeth are "Sahih"?

    Real Islam as how YOU define it, is in fact, 300-400 years after Muhamamd.

    It's the equivalent of accepting the Catholic Church's definition of what real Christianity is. You can criticize the Church, as you can criticize Orthodox Islam, but you can't call it real Islam/Christianity.

    You can criticize Sunni Hanafi fiqh for example, and it's assumtion that Bukhari's methodology was sound. If you don't challenge this, then you are discussing Islam, ON THEIR terms, and not your own.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #16 - November 19, 2011, 11:32 AM

    When I was a believer, one thing that shook my faith, was when I was studying Jewish history and the Rabbinic traditions, some stories, were almost word for word identical with SAHIH hadeeth. I don't think it's plagiarism though, as much as gossip that get's mixed up in translation.

    Nobody hates Herod anymore for killing the first borns, because the Orthodox Christian narrative has been challenged. Romans didn't require people to return home for a census, nor did they even do a census in Palestine. When you dismiss the narrative that THEY define, we in fact, know extremely little about Muhammad, and nothing at all about Jesus.

    This is remarkable, because it's written at the time. Historians dismiss oral tradition, and rightly so. If there's any real Islam, the below ranks HIGHER academically speaking than all of Bukhari put together.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebeos

    Sebeos (Armenian: Սեբեոս) was a 7th century Armenian bishop and historian who participated in the first Council of Dvin in 645.

    The history of Sebeos contains detailed descriptions from the period of Sassanid supremacy in Armenia up to the Islamic conquest in 661. Sebeos' work was published for the first time in 1851 in Constantinople.

    Twelve peoples representing all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Persian troops had departed leaving the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When the Jews realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and Heraclius ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael. The Jews called the Arabs to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Old Testament. Although the Arabs were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, became prominent. A sermon about the Way of Truth, supposedly at God’s command, was revealed to them, and Muhammad taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history. Because the command had come from on High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father–Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said: “God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when God loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you”.

    Sebeos also wrote the Armenian chronicles around 660 AD. which describes how Muhammad established a community which comprised both Ishmaelites (i.e. Arabs) and Jews based on their common descent from Abraham; the Arabs via Ishmael, and the Jews via Isaac.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #17 - November 19, 2011, 12:02 PM

    The Ghassanids (Arabic: الغساسنة‎) (al-Ghasāsinah, also Banū Ghassān "Sons of Ghassān") were a group of South Arabian Christian tribes that emigrated in the early 3rd century from Yemen to Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and the Holy Land. The term Ghassān refers to the kingdom of the Ghassanids, an ancient Arab Christian kingdom in the Levant.
    ------------

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #18 - November 19, 2011, 01:00 PM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4hpfqFt-0Q

    he is a confused fool speaks and writes like headless chicken..


    That speech is pure gold.

    Poor Mehdi got caught with his hands in the cookie jar.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #19 - November 19, 2011, 04:23 PM




    The "It's not Islam" position is nothing more than an attempt at having a buffet belief system that we see in many other religions. Christianity for example is not tied to a book that is believed to be dictated by god, "the inspired by god" mantra leaves considerable wriggle room for christians to move with the times, adapt their religion to a faith that in practice bares little in resemblance to the beliefs that first centaury christians held. Christians may profess a belief in the main dogmas held by the church (virgin birth, resurrection, etc etc) but as far as practice goes and its relevance to the everyday life of christians, the church has allowed itself to move with the times and to drop certain dogmas that it sees as a restrictive when it comes to compatibility with the modern world. Acceptance of the Theory of Evolution, the re-defining of limbo, the acceptance of gays are all examples of how the church has changed its position to fit in with the majority of beliefs held by christians. The church is re-active to its followers. The danger is that the dogma becomes so diluted that ultimately it bares little or no resemblance to the original. The reason that the faith is able to remain coherent is because of the established church and its hierarchy, there is an authority, a leadership that is able to provide direction. The problem with Islam is that the Koran adopts this position of authority and a book cannot change its mind with the times.

    I have no problem with accepting buffet believers when it comes to christianity, but I do when it comes to Islam. To take a particular example (one of many), I know muslims that think homosexuality is ok and I know many more that consider it to be a crime. For me the question is a stark one with a clear answer; under Islamic law homosexuality is a crime. On what authority does the gay friendly muslim base their claim? It's clear that mostly it is liberal, progressive society that informs and shapes the beliefs of gay friendly muslims  away from what Islam is requiring them to believe. If Islam permits this what is to become of it? Where will it stop? There is no leadership or hierarchy to steer the ship, if this is allowed to continue and anyone can pick and choose from the Koran in any way they see fit eventually it will become meaningless to call yourself a muslim. Islam is clearly defined. It is not so clear it seems to define what a muslim is if the beliefs of muslims are at such odds with each other. This is where muslims that feel uncomfortable with certain teachings and dogmas of Islam come hard up against a wall. The stigma that is associated with apostasy is a barrier one side and the ultimate authority of the Koran is the barrier on the other. Mass confusion ensues, this is what is causing the duality of mind we see Mhedi Hasan displaying.



    "Happy happy, joy joy!" Stimpson J Cat.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #20 - November 19, 2011, 05:58 PM

    Quote
    The stigma that is associated with apostasy is a barrier one side and the ultimate authority of the Koran is the barrier on the other.


    The afterlife plays no role whatsoever, nor does family, nor does fear of death, nor does cultural reinforcement of 'obvious' beliefs like God, not education which at times renders people de facto apostates, but not 'officially'.


    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #21 - November 19, 2011, 06:12 PM



    I'm talking about the conflict between contradictory positions. On the one hand muslims that live in liberal and progressive societies see the benefits it brings and the sensible attitudes it adopts, they can see also that these maxims are at odds with traditional Islam, therefore they construct their own non-traditional form of Islam. But they are caught out by the Korans ultimate authority. I see fear of death as part of it but for some educated muslims in the west I think they probably adopt the same position as the vast majority, i.e. when you're dead you're dead. There's a lot of wishfull thinking by people about death and I think most wishfull thinkers are aware that their thinking is wishfull.



    "Happy happy, joy joy!" Stimpson J Cat.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #22 - November 19, 2011, 06:35 PM

    I'm an atheist Muslim. bunny There is no God, and Muhammad is his prophet. Ie. not a prophet.

    I submit to science and I like turbans. Afro  



    And when I go to war, I'm wearing this:



    That makes me a Muslim atheist.

    Even if they want to kill apostates, atheists are smarter, and with that helmet no one can beat me.

    Muhammad hijacked Judaism, I'm hijacking Islam.




    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #23 - November 19, 2011, 06:38 PM

    Christians should do the same, and copy Jesus when he basically told the orthodox religous to go fuck themselves. If everyone did that. Afro

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #24 - November 19, 2011, 06:41 PM

    I've just had two cups of extra strong coffee.

     banana dance

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #25 - November 19, 2011, 06:43 PM

    I'm an atheist Muslim. bunny There is no God, and Muhammad is his prophet. Ie. not a prophet.

    That makes me a Muslim atheist.



    Good luck with that mate  Afro

    Might take a while to take off though.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #26 - November 19, 2011, 06:52 PM

    Quote
    Coffee aficionados often claim that the spread of its popularity is due to Pope Clement VIII's influence. Being pressured by his advisers to declare coffee the "bitter invention of Satan" because of its popularity among Muslims and it being a sort of antithesis or substitute for wine (which was used in the Eucharist), upon tasting it he instead declared that, "This devil's drink is so delicious...we should cheat the devil by baptizing it." The year often cited is 1600. It is not clear whether this is a true story, but it may have been found amusing at the time.


    LMAO@Pope - good to know some Pope's have a bit of humour about themselves.

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #27 - November 19, 2011, 06:52 PM

    Good luck with that mate  Afro

    Might take a while to take off though.


    With the right turban style, anything is possible. Afro

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #28 - November 19, 2011, 07:01 PM

    Posthuman

    I am also a muslim athiest.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: It's not Islam....
     Reply #29 - November 19, 2011, 07:03 PM

    Good luck with that mate  Afro

    Might take a while to take off though.


    If the name was "Muslimullah" or something, then it wouldn't work, because the word means "Submitter to God". You can't be an atheist who submits to God.

    To be honest, I like the helmet. cool2

    That's not a euphamism for being gay, I like the hard metal, the elegant elongated...oh shit...this isn't working. whistling2

    Before Jesus was, I AM.
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