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 Topic: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....

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  • So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     OP - December 24, 2011, 10:08 PM

    I decided I can no longer keep my beliefs to my self, I am a diest and I had to come out to my parents soon. So one way I thought coming out was to ask a few awkward questions to my parents, before I tell them I no longer belive in Islam. so I went through the '100's of questions to ask a muslim' thread and picked the most difficult to answer.

    This being the question if god/allah knows our future, then surely he already knew that we were going to hell or heaven even before he created us.

    After I had asked the question I gave an example that allah/god would send a christian to hell even though god knew he was going to be a christian.

    I asked my parents separatlyto make surethey don't intervene each other, and arrive at the conclusion: allah knows best.

    So the first response I got from my mum, was the typical allah knows best response, to be honest I was kind of expecting it.

    My dads response however suprised me quite a bit, while I started giving my example of how a christian would go to hell, he stopped me and asked who told you that? I responded with, well everyone knows that if you're not a muslim you go to hell. This is the bit which suprised me, he told me 'all the imams you see are talking bullshit, everyone who beleives in god gets to go to heaven its only athiest that go to hell'. I then said its written in the quran that anyone that isn't a muslim goes to hell, he then asked me to show him where it says that and because I (stupidly) didn't do my research I couldn't prove him wrong.

    But I guess one good thing that came out of it is it makes my 'coming out' process alot easier.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #1 - December 25, 2011, 03:29 PM

    LOL the trouble with the qur'an and the ahadeeth is that they often contradict not just each other but themselves. Mo said different things to different people in different contexts. I suppose when he didn't want trouble with the christians and jews at the start of his dawah and wanted to win them over he said they'd go to heaven too. When he was in complete power and had a bajillion followers he said only muslims had that luxury. The rest would rot in hell.
    I do think though that the most difficult question is why anyone (even athiests) should go to hell at all.

    Also, how old are you and why do you feel you have to come out to your parents? Unless you have a VERY good reason, I really don't think it's a good idea. AT ALL. 

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #2 - December 25, 2011, 04:39 PM

    "And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers." Quran 3:85.

    And, yes, I agree with Jema, you should think about it very carefully before you decide to come out, and examine your reasons for doing so well.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #3 - December 25, 2011, 06:33 PM

    a piece of advice, when looking to tell family you're coming out, don't mention other religions..

    also, when looking to come out yourself, don't look to other religions or how your religion views other faiths, stick to the basic tenants and practices of what you're looking to get out of

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #4 - December 25, 2011, 06:57 PM

    why do you even need to have an argument? the point isn't to convince anyone. you should avoid any argument as much as possible, because they would only strain your relationship with your parents even more.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #5 - December 25, 2011, 07:21 PM

    ^ That's sound advice as well.  But sometimes family want to try to convince you to come back by trying to engage you in "debates" so it's best to be ready for that.  If your answers aren't satisfactory or are ill-informed, they will take it as just a phase.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #6 - December 25, 2011, 07:45 PM

    ^ +1. From experience, you gain a lot more respect if you show them you know what you're talking about.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #7 - December 25, 2011, 08:38 PM

    Thanks for the advice guys, I've now revised my ideas. I'm thinking of making a list questioning/criticism Islam and including all the Surahs/Hadiths referencing my questioning, therefore justifying my questioning/criticism. I reckon my I could get away with criticizing Islam with my dad as he's more relaxed about religion. However with my mum I'm just gonna have to stick to questioning.

    btw I'm 18. The reason why I want to come out is because I keep being pestered by my mum to pray. I also feel like I should not pretend to be something I am not.

    And again thanks for the advice guys.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #8 - December 25, 2011, 11:13 PM

    I keep being pestered by my mum to pray. I also feel like I should not pretend to be something I am not.


    Fuck me too! I can move away from my parents or really anywhere but I have no excuse since my college is finished. I really need to get away from home, it's getting hard to not get pissed. finmad

  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #9 - December 26, 2011, 12:06 AM

    ^ +1. From experience, you gain a lot more respect if you show them you know what you're talking about.

    the only thing i got from arguing with my dad about religion was a strained relationship.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #10 - December 26, 2011, 01:33 AM

    I'm 17, and I guess I'm lucky since my parents took the hint and no longer pester me about religion. I guess one reason might be that they're afraid of the Pandora's box they could open up if they did. In return, I don't mind pretending every now and then to be a Muslim.

    However, if they did pester me a lot about it, I'd confront them. I'd probably not come out as an atheist, but I'd say something like "I will not pray, and that's that." I've been itching to do it with my annoying grandma, but haven't had the opportunity yet. I yearn for the day.

    Not that this is sound advice or anything (not that it isn't, either) -- just how I'd react.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #11 - December 26, 2011, 01:49 AM

    it took a long time for my dad to accept me as i am. i don't think arguing had anything to do with it though, arguments just seemed pointless and never led anywhere. they were yell fests more than anything else. i think he just realized with me growing up and moving out that i have my own life and path and there's nothing he can do to control me. he still tries to sway me by giving me prayer books, etc., but he does it as a nice gesture. he doesn't force me to pray anymore, even when i'm back home.

    from personal experience i think when you're young your parents are going to think it's just a phase no matter what. this holds true with a lot of things when it comes to teenagers rebelling, and i would say not just for parents either. people generally look down on teenage rebellion as just an image or a phase, something that fades or passes with time. but when you grow up and still hold those views, people have no option but to take you seriously and accept you as who you are.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #12 - December 26, 2011, 02:04 AM

    Yup, I've had the same experience. People who told me my atheism was a phase took me seriously a year later, when I was still an atheist.

    However, in my situation, arguing helped a lot. It never turned into yelling or fighting, though. I don't know if that's thanks to my parents' naturally calm nature or the way I handled it. Most Muslims don't think about Islam too much and hold its veracity to be self-evident, to the point that challenging it is seen as wantonly perverse. When you discuss Islam critically -- not in an antagonizing way, though -- and make good points, it may not change their mind (it very likely won't -- most apostates seem to have left Islam at a young age, with the notable exception of converts), but it will (in my experience) at least make them feel that such attitudes are understandable, if misguided. And here, you have won half the battle.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #13 - December 26, 2011, 02:20 AM

    the only thing i got from arguing with my dad about religion was a strained relationship.


    I read the other posts in the thread too.  It's good things are better.  It's kind of hard to avoid fights when it's the parents that initiate it because if you don't reply they'll just think you agree in the end.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #14 - December 28, 2011, 01:50 PM

    I read the other posts in the thread too.  It's good things are better.  It's kind of hard to avoid fights when it's the parents that initiate it because if you don't reply they'll just think you agree in the end.


    Yeah it sucks. And I don't want to argue. I wish I didn't have to explain myself, but they basically demand it.

    from personal experience i think when you're young your parents are going to think it's just a phase no matter what. this holds true with a lot of things when it comes to teenagers rebelling, and i would say not just for parents either. people generally look down on teenage rebellion as just an image or a phase, something that fades or passes with time. but when you grow up and still hold those views, people have no option but to take you seriously and accept you as who you are.


    Isn't it so satisfying and even a bit vindicating when you are older and still like the same things, and everyone realizes it wasn't a phase?  grin12  dance

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #15 - December 28, 2011, 02:19 PM

    Quote
    Also, how old are you and why do you feel you have to come out to your parents? Unless you have a VERY good reason, I really don't think it's a good idea. AT ALL.  

      

    I disagree. I think you need a VERY good reason to NOT come out.  It won't become any easier for ex muslims to come out as atheists if we all stay in the closet.

    But yeah you should wait until your financially stable... etc  

    And i tried the questioning Islam thing  to give my parents a hint. Next thing i know i ended up at the "RIS islamic" convention in Toronto for a whole day along with Islamic classes every friday         015    finmad

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #16 - December 28, 2011, 02:26 PM

    In religion,
    "Everyone says different things,  But they are convinced that they are the ones to see."
    - I Want Out by Helloween

    "Children of Abel, Children of Cain
     Can live in harmony, without shame
     The keys that I grant thee, The Sacred Land
     Are dry desert sand on the palm of your hand
     Without the water, the wisdom of past
     Will run through your fingers, forgotten so fast"
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #17 - December 28, 2011, 05:02 PM

    we do need to come out to our parents and the muslim community. we need to show people that  we aren't anti muslim extremists. We need to help those just starting to question Islam feel like they can leave Islam without being a Salman Rushdie.

    BUT, do not do it til you are financially stable. Or at least until you have finished a higher education degree(if thats the route you are taking). I would also suggest getting a degree in something that will make you money initially since you can always go back to school later to pursue true dreams and interests.

    My parents found out about my apostasy my second year at uni and its been a downward spiral. Luckily things are mellowing out but I do random things here or there that make them think its just a phase.
    I also still have 1/3 of the quran memorized and can recite it pretty well and my mom thinks that true non muslims forget the quran.

    I wish parents everywhere could remove their veil of religion and see their kids for whom they actually are.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #18 - December 28, 2011, 06:10 PM

    we do need to come out to our parents


    I'm financially stable and still can't ever come out to my parents because it will emotionally hurt them. I don't see any positive effects to coming out. I think it's better for them to think I'm a non-practicing Muslim instead.

  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #19 - December 30, 2011, 08:39 PM

    Well I guess you know your parents best (or do you? You might be very surprised) and it's different for everyone. But from my own personal experience, it's a terrible idea. I know how suffocating it is to have to pretend to be something you're not and put up with your parents' bullshit every single day. You feel like imploding, but you really have to consider the consequences and repercussions. Is it worth it? What will you gain that is otherwise impossible?  Are you willing to make your parents live with the idea that you will be going to hell? Can't you just be a very bad muslim instead of an atheist? Are you happy with them praying for you everyday? Have you considered that it might actually make  things a LOT worse for you? How will this affect your freedoms? Have you taken into account your siblings (if you have any) and how that might affect them?

    Also you said you're 18, shouldn't you be moving for uni or something in the near future? You will only realise how trivial your concerns were in the aftermath of things, which, assuming the worst, will be pretty catastrophic. What seems inevitable now, might just not be all that unavoidable later.  Call me selfish, but I don't think that 'fighting for the cause' is more important than your mental well being when it comes to things like this. I'm not saying you shouldn't tell them, it's up to you in the end, and maybe I'm being a pussy and drama queen about all of this, but at least I'm being sincere. All I'm saying is this is a bigger step than you think it is, that will shape your relationship with your family for possibly the rest of your life, so I'd give it a lot of thought (sorry if you feel I'm being condescending, I'm really not, I just need to stress this part lol).

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #20 - December 30, 2011, 11:10 PM

    Quote
    Key points:

    In Britain, those who profess no-religion have risen from 31% to 43% between 1983 and 2008. In 2009, this was found to have further risen to 51%.
    Conversely, in 1983 66% identified as Christian, in 2008 the number was 50%. In 2009, this further declined to 43%.
    The proportion identifying as belonging to some other religion has risen from 2% in 1983 to 5% in 2009.
    In 2008 37% of the UK population are sceptical, 35% have definite or doubtful.
    In 2009 only 17% of the British population attend religious services at least monthly, and only 11% attend at least weekly.
    Those self-described as members of the Church of England consist of 20% of the population in 2009 (40% in 1983). In 2008, it was found that 49% of this group never attend services; only 8% of people who identify with the CofE attend church weekly.
    62% of people in Britain never attend a religious service.
    42% of all those questioned are against any form of faith school
    52% agree that “Britain is deeply divided along religious lines”
    Religion in Britain is estimated to have a ‘half-life’ of one generation
    Views on Religion and Politics:

    “Three quarters (75 per cent) maintain their religious leaders should not try to influence voting behaviour while two-thirds (67 per cent) think religious leaders should stay out of government decision making” (Page 74)

    “Nearly half (45 per cent) of people in Britain take the view that laws and policy decisions would probably be worse in these circumstances and only a quarter (26 per cent) think that decisions would probably be better.”  (Page 74)

    “There is also disquiet about the extended to which religious faith can lead to intolerance. Three quarters (73 per cent) of Britons maintain that “people with very strong religious beliefs are often too intolerant of others”. Naturally, agreement was highest among the unreligious (at 82 per cent), but even 63 per cent of religious people concurred.” (Page 75)


    http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/religion-and-belief-surveys-statistics/british-social-attitudes-survey

    From my perspective, your questions are not anything special or anything the vast majority of parents would have any problem with.

    So I must ask, how statistically different are muslims?  Would 51% of people with a muslim background say they have no religion?

    How many muslims actually attend mosque?

    I don't think there is a support group for ex anglicans.....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #21 - December 30, 2011, 11:20 PM

    To continue, it feels to me as if a serious effort is required to educate muslim parents and opinion leaders that their attitudes and opinions do not work, are illogical and immoral, never mind them producing loads of harrumphing about allah and mo.
    .
    But what do I see, that guy in the Leyton Mosque saying umm try reading Darwin getting death threats.

    What is all this chicken liken sky is falling Daily Mail with bombs stuff about?

    We're doomed!


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #22 - December 31, 2011, 03:44 PM

    Yeah it sucks. And I don't want to argue. I wish I didn't have to explain myself, but they basically demand it.


    Yeah.  So frustrating.

    "Work without hope draws nectar in a sieve, and hope without an object cannot live." -Coleridge

    http://sinofgreed.wordpress.com/
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #23 - January 01, 2012, 05:56 AM

    Wish I could do that. I'd be beaten to death if not by my father my overly religious brothers AND sisters.
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #24 - January 01, 2012, 11:21 AM

    Quote
    Wish I could do that. I'd be beaten to death if not by my father my overly religious brothers AND sisters.


    Would someone explain this?  It is basically weird. 

    It is as if a huge section of the population are basically puppets on strings dancing to other people's tunes. 

    The East German Stasi and Russian secret police did not have these levels of social control!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #25 - January 01, 2012, 06:21 PM

    Wish I could do that. I'd be beaten to death if not by my father my overly religious brothers AND sisters.

       

    Do you think you could try moving out of the house first so your brothers couldn't harm you ? And just threaten to call the police if your brothers threaten you. 


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #26 - January 02, 2012, 03:28 AM

    we do need to come out to our parents and the muslim community. we need to show people that  we aren't anti muslim extremists. We need to help those just starting to question Islam feel like they can leave Islam without being a Salman Rushdie.

    BUT, do not do it til you are financially stable. Or at least until you have finished a higher education degree(if thats the route you are taking). I would also suggest getting a degree in something that will make you money initially since you can always go back to school later to pursue true dreams and interests.

    My parents found out about my apostasy my second year at uni and its been a downward spiral. Luckily things are mellowing out but I do random things here or there that make them think its just a phase.
    I also still have 1/3 of the quran memorized and can recite it pretty well and my mom thinks that true non muslims forget the quran.

       

    How did they find out about your apostasy??

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #27 - January 03, 2012, 08:01 AM

    ....................... I've now revised my ideas. I'm thinking of making a list questioning/criticism Islam and including all the Surahs/Hadiths referencing my questioning, therefore justifying my questioning/criticism. I reckon my I could get away with criticizing Islam with my dad as he's more relaxed about religion. However with my mum I'm just gonna have to stick to questioning.

    btw I'm 18. .........................

    Oh boy that age.. the rebelling age ,,

    I would suggest to Magic and other friends of CEMB who live with their parents/sibling  or for that matter Uncles.. etc do such things without hurting or arguing/fighting with them.  One way to announce to all those near and dear that you are questioning faith   is some how trick them to watch Tubes like these..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjpqeZirDqU

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfe4IUB9NTk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mwxm3rNXI_w

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShJwq3aPLMk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxQR6gdd1P0

    for e.g keep your computer windows open with these tube files or use their computer to watch them and leave them on desktops .. There are plenty of such tubes on web..

    BUT MAKE SURE NO :INKS TO FORUMS LIKE CEMB ..lol......

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #28 - January 05, 2012, 12:09 AM

    Quote
    would suggest to Magic and other friends of CEMB who live with their parents/sibling  or for that matter Uncles.. etc do such things without hurting or arguing/fighting with them.  One way to announce to all those near and dear that you are questioning faith   is some how trick them to watch Tubes like these..

       

    That really depends on how religious the parents are. For many ex muslims teens (including me) finding questioning islam vids on my computer would result in my parents supervising me every time i log onto the computer. 

    Best to wait until being financially independent before even hinting at apostasy

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: So I asked my dad one of those awkward questions....
     Reply #29 - January 05, 2012, 12:16 AM

       

    That really depends on how religious the parents are. For many ex muslims teens (including me) finding questioning islam vids on my computer would result in my parents supervising me every time i log onto the computer. 

    Best to wait until being financially independent before even hinting at apostasy

    How are you doing DarkRebel ., You got some good points ., well., religiosity of a person depends on his mood and time.. So it is quite complex to guess a situation but tell from the above tubes  which one you think are anti Islamic except that Sam Harris tube..

    with best wishes and happy new year
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
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