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 Topic: A question: Esperanto or Basque?

 (Read 3026 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     OP - January 03, 2012, 08:12 PM
    Let's say you have (due to some weird circumstances that shall not be elucidated) a choice. You have to learn either Esperanto or Basque.

    Let's further assume that you have no obvious practical reason to learn either. In other words, you have to learn one or the other, but you are not in a situation where either will give you any immediate advantage, socially or in business.

    Which one would you choose?

    I was thinking about this last night (don't ask me why). I can see the arguments for choosing Esperanto. Easy to learn. Can talk with 0.03% of people in odd places. Etc, etc.

    OTOH, as the only remaining indigenous language from before the Indo-European "invasion", Basque is definitely more fascinating IMHO. It has roots going back to the Neolithic and is completely unrelated to all surrounding languages. It also does pretty well on a comparison by number of speakers (around 700,000 for Basque).

    On this basis, and much to the annoyance of the Wearers of the Sacred Skivvies, I would probably go for Basque.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #1 - January 03, 2012, 08:36 PM
    Basque, for pretty much the reasons you gave. I'm not quite so interested in artificial languages.
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #2 - January 04, 2012, 04:20 AM
    I say learn them both -- most Esperanto speakers are polyglots, and many start learning a language after coming into contact with a culture through another Esperanto speaker. It's not a competition.

    And no, it doesn't annoy me that you'd rather learn Basque Tongue It doesn't annoy me if someone dislikes Esperanto. The thing that annoys me is when people make claims about it without investigating it first. So far you haven't done much of that (making unfounded claims) -- not lately anyway. You just say that you don't like the idea, which is fine. Out of curiosity, what do you think of the very concept of an IAL?

    I'd be interested in hearing your views as well, Zebedee (also, have you read Arika Okrent's fascinating book, In the Land of Invented Languages? She's a linguist herself, and her writing is quite humorous and balanced, for the most part. The book doesn't discuss Esperanto much -- it's more of a history of conlangs in general.)
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #3 - January 04, 2012, 05:32 AM
    Quote from: harakaat on January 04, 2012, 04:20 AM
    I say learn them both

    Realistically, I'm too lazy and/or have too many other things to do.

    Quote
    -- most Esperanto speakers are polyglots

    Bugger that. I don't want any weird tropical diseases. Tongue

    Quote
    Out of curiosity, what do you think of the very concept of an IAL?

    I can see the practical advantages of the idea, but frankly (in the totally non-French sense of the word) I think it's the sort of thing that people just naturally evolve themselves, and trying to get them enthused about one you've invented isn't going to go swimmingly.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #4 - January 04, 2012, 05:49 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 04, 2012, 05:32 AM
    Realistically, I'm too lazy and/or have too many other things to do.


    It would actually help with the Basque. As I mentioned previously, if you spent 6 months learning Esperanto and a year and a half learning French afterwards, you'd end up speaking better French than someone who spent those two years learning just French. So it actually reduces your workload.

    Quote from: osmanthus on January 04, 2012, 05:32 AM
    Bugger that. I don't want any weird tropical diseases. Tongue


     Cheesy

    Quote from: osmanthus on January 04, 2012, 05:32 AM
    I can see the practical advantages of the idea, but frankly (in the totally non-French sense of the word) I think it's the sort of thing that people just naturally evolve themselves, and trying to get them enthused about one you've invented isn't going to go swimmingly.


    The problem with languages that evolve naturally is that they're often irregular and highly idiomatic. While you may find that fascinating (I do), practically speaking it makes the international language a less effective medium of communication.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #5 - January 04, 2012, 05:59 AM
    Yes I understand the point. The thing is that to get people to learn and use a language, they need to have some sort of connection to it. This can be a practical requirement (like being necessary for business) or an emotional attachment (like flying lizards n shit) but you need to have something.

    Trying to impose language from above hasn't worked well historically. I mean you have the French Academy, who take themselves extraordinarily seriously, but who are largely ignored by the vast majority of people who use French on a daily basis. You have the attempts to legislate the use of languages like Welsh and Erse, but those have generally been failures too. Basically, people will speak what they bloody well want to. Always have.

    So, although logically the idea of an IAL has merit, it's going to be next to impossible to get people motivated to use one that you have conjured up for their benefit. They'll be too busy using existing languages and adapting them to their current purposes.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #6 - January 04, 2012, 06:14 AM
    One way around this is to teach the IAL at the school level (like English). One way this might happen is if the UN passes a resolution encouraging the teaching of Esperanto (and they almost did a couple of times before backing down due to American and French pressure -- teaching ESL is a very lucrative business) or any other IAL. Even if just a few countries start implementing it, if it achieves critical mass other countries will follow. And the great thing is the practicality of it all -- there's tons of resources and a large body of literature in Esperanto, and you only need to teach Esperanto for a couple of years before the students reach fluency.

    In the short-term, this is incredibly unlikely. But English cannot remain the language of international communication forever. Other superpowers will probably rise, and the world will need to find a solution.

    Also, sometimes language planning works -- Hebrew and Welsh have been revived successfully, after all.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #7 - January 04, 2012, 06:46 AM
    You need better marketing. At the moment you come across like a stamp collector going "No seriously, dude. Philately is awesome sexy" and everyone else is just going "Meh".

    Take Italian. It's the Monica Belluci of languages. Like "Fuck yeah, I could definitely go for that".

    German is a three hundred pound hausfrau in gumboots. It's never going to work.

    Esperanto is like the me-too-me-too kid you want to swat. You need Esperanto porn, or something like that, to get people interested.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #8 - January 04, 2012, 06:54 AM
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    That got me googling, and I found this:

    Quote
    There's an attempt at Esperanto television via the Internet, and the portal Gxangalo has recently tried to boost their income by adding a subscriber-only section with some Esperanto soft porn. How's THAT for "culture", eh?
    ;-)

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #9 - January 04, 2012, 07:05 AM
    See? This is the problem. Too bloody sanitised. Esperanto's idea of daring is soft porn. Sheesh.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #10 - January 04, 2012, 07:15 AM
    Actually, the Esperanto community is more liberal than you'd think. I'm doing an intermediate course on lernu!, and so far there's been lesbians, bars, nightclubs, and kissing games at the International Youth Congress of Esperanto that the characters in the course visit, and I'm not done with the course yet! Coming from an environment where talking to a girl is considered daring, I was a bit shocked!
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #11 - January 04, 2012, 07:22 AM
    Oh well, I come from an environment where lesbians, bars, nightclubs and kissing, individually or combined, are considered quite normal and nothing to write home about. Wotcha got for me, then? Grin
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #12 - January 04, 2012, 07:25 AM
    Those 144 virgins are still on offer.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #13 - January 04, 2012, 07:30 AM
    Meh. Virgins. Totally overrated IMHO.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #14 - January 04, 2012, 07:34 AM
    WHAT?!

    ALL THAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD

    IS A LIE?!
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #15 - January 04, 2012, 07:38 AM
    Well, TBH, I've never been with a virgin so I wouldn't really know. I don't see what the big deal is, though.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #16 - January 04, 2012, 12:52 PM
    If I was you I'd just pretend I know how to speak it. Its not like you're going to come across anyone who speaks either of those to languages any time soon. But purely from a social-experimental position I would go for Esperanto, if I had to learn one.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #17 - January 04, 2012, 01:40 PM
    Basque. I wanna learn how to blow up stuff. And annoy harakaat.
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #18 - January 04, 2012, 01:43 PM
    Quote from: Naerys on January 04, 2012, 01:40 PM
    Basque. I wanna learn how to blow up stuff. And annoy harakaat.


    learn from her Naerys..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q442wEcAmJ8
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #19 - January 04, 2012, 04:06 PM
    I am learning Georgian language which some linguists connect to Basque. It's a fascinating language, but grammar is hard as hell.

    While it's alphabet is a real eye-candy.
    Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #20 - January 04, 2012, 11:27 PM
    Quote from: Naerys on January 04, 2012, 01:40 PM
    Basque. I wanna learn how to blow up stuff. And annoy harakaat.


    lol

    You can blow up stuff by learning Kabyle and running off to the mountains in Tizi Ouzo.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #21 - January 04, 2012, 11:30 PM
    Yeah but will it annoy you?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #22 - January 04, 2012, 11:37 PM
    If you want to really annoy me, learn one of Esperanto's direct competitors, like Ido or Interlingua.
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #23 - January 04, 2012, 11:40 PM
    Which one would annoy you most? grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #24 - January 04, 2012, 11:45 PM
    Ido, definitely.

    ... wait, please don't tell me you're going to...
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #25 - January 04, 2012, 11:48 PM
    dance
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #26 - January 05, 2012, 12:06 AM
    Fek'!

    (Esperanto for "SHIT!")
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #27 - January 05, 2012, 12:10 AM
    Important question: given its artificial, and therefore presumable somewhat formal, nature is it possible to actually swear in Esperanto? I mean real swearing, not just a recitation of medical terms.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #28 - January 05, 2012, 12:18 AM
    Absolutely. The thing is, it was started by one person, but then people started speaking it as a natural language and it evolved to meet their needs. The Esperanto that Zamenhof used even sounds a bit archaic today. Here're some examples of Esperanto curse-words:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqyghWTLrOs&list=FLQvJCfVSD0-zgufdDESeEwg&index=37&feature=plpp_video

    (also, read the top comment -- it's hilarious if you get it)

    And of course:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto_profanity
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #29 - January 05, 2012, 12:27 AM
    Hmm. Seems a bit pathetic, but at least they're trying.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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