Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #120 - March 03, 2012, 04:27 PM

@ Sprout:

Yeah that is why I am saying, Hamza gave an interesting speech in the beginning, never mind his the Quran is miraculous, I am strictly interested why didn't Prof. Hoodbhoy address the existance issue and refute Hamza on the Law giver premise he made, why didn't Prof. Hoodbhoy address it and tell him that it is impossible to prove there is a law giver especially a law giver that has written a book and so on if there is such a refutation of course.

I am now watching the rebuttal part of the debate.

I think prof. Pervez should have addressed Hamza and called on his bullshit where Hamza said that he is not gonna solder towards the God of Gaps argument and in the end he used the God of Gaps argument by trying to say that Science can't prove whence Gravity and Matter and that it is safe to assume that someone came up with Gravity as he already claimed that it was an Intelligent mind and a law giver.

I would have really wanted to see how prof. Hoodbhoy calls hamza on his god of the gaps who he disassociate himself from.

I agree on your second and third point completely.

@ Yeezeve:

Thanks bro .

About your highlighted part, that is what I mean too, that is what I wanted prof. Pervez to do, to address and call on Hamza's God of the Gap or Argument of COmposition or whatever Logical fallacy it was and refute his superficial unsubstantiated drivel.

Hamza acted like he knows there is a God if there is a law such as Gravity but he failed to explain how did he come to this conclusion and based on what evidence and I think prof. Hoodbhoy should have addressed this issue.

I am still watching the debate, now I will pause it and have to finish some unfinished work I left from yesterday and come back watch it again.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #121 - March 03, 2012, 04:38 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 03, 2012, 04:27 PM
............................

About your highlighted part, that is what I mean too, that is what I wanted prof. Pervez to do, to address and call on Hamza's God of the Gap or Argument of COmposition or whatever Logical fallacy it was and refute his superficial unsubstantiated drivel.

Hamza acted like he knows there is a God if there is a law such as Gravity but he failed to explain how did he come to this conclusion and based on what evidence and I think prof. Hoodbhoy should have addressed this issue.

I am still watching the debate, now I will pause it and have to finish some unfinished work I left from tomorrow and come back watch it again.

Well you should watch the debate fully also read this pdf file of hamza.,

As far as the addressing.,"issue of God" is concerned Professor Hoodbhoy can not speak like an atheist in US of A., specially living in Pakistan., if Professor Hoodbhoy by chance says "all this God thing that comes out of religious books is nonsense"., Then religious baboons in Pakistan will corner him and put a Fatwa on his head saying that this guy is "Infidel"

So what Hoodbhoy did was walk on a very tight rope and he has to do that without hurting sentiments of Muslims and Mullahs in Pakistan , at the same time proving this England TORTILLA IS A FOOL knows nothing about Physics but talks few big words that he learned on internet..

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #122 - March 03, 2012, 05:05 PM

that makes me think why did he want to debate Hamza when he couldn't fully address the issue in the first place.

He still didn't call Hamza's nonsense, he just argued how Religion shouldn't be with science and this and that but he didn't explain why it shouldn't be mixed with science and how did he defend Rationality through science ?

I don't know, I need to watch the rest of the debate, till now I am disappointed a bit, I expected a lot more from a scientist.

I expected him to refute Hamza's nonsense rationally and logically and not tell us why religion shouldn't be mixed with science, that is very irrelevant.

I expected him to logically refute Hamza's Law Giver Argument, and that THERE MUST BE AN INTELLIGENT MIND THAT CREATED THE UNIVERSE also by using physics to refute Hamza's claim about Infinity and the law of gravity and so on.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #123 - March 03, 2012, 05:32 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 03, 2012, 05:05 PM
that makes me think why did he want to debate Hamza when he couldn't fully address the issue in the first place.

ah ha!. that is bloody set up these buggers play., He is a very well known Physics Prof at LUMS., So some of his students(who are baboons) conned him to debate with this guy., Hoodbhoy could not say no to them., But he also didn't know this character and his antics around the web..

Quote
He still didn't call Hamza's nonsense, he just argued how Religion shouldn't be with science and this and that but he didn't explain why it shouldn't be mixed with science and how did he defend Rationality through science ?

well Hoodbhoy has some limits in land of pure unlike Tortilla who is a guest over there..

Quote
I don't know, I need to watch the rest of the debate, till now I am disappointed a bit, I expected a lot more from a scientist.

I expected him to refute Hamza's nonsense rationally and logically and not tell us why religion shouldn't be mixed with science, that is very irrelevant.

I expected him to logically refute Hamza's Law Giver Argument, and that THERE MUST BE AN INTELLIGENT MIND THAT CREATED THE UNIVERSE also by using physics to refute Hamza's claim about Infinity and the law of gravity and so on.

That is all right .,

No one can debate these fools on stage., they jump from Quran in English to Quran in Arabic, Embryology in Quran to Geology in Quran to big bang theory in Quran.. and what not .. at the end they say

"you don't understand my argument" you are not a Philosopher.,... may be that is because you are born in Muslim world ..... that could be the reason you hate Islam and Muslims..

How can you argue with idiots talking like that? that too in presence of Muslim crowd/students..?? The funny thing is, these fools know nothing about any fields of science they are arguing with, including common sense. But they have big mouth and if the fool is born in west and western convert, he/she may have bit of that English accent by which they try to attract Muslim crowds of East.

Anyways., some 4 year back this tortilla debated at FFI where I was very active Ali Floored the guy., unfortunately I can not find the complete debate..

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #124 - March 03, 2012, 06:15 PM

Because the debate was in Pakistan, let's also remember that Hoodbhoy couldn't have said half the things he would've liked to. He had to be diplomatic, whereas Hamza had free rein say what he wanted as vociferously as he wanted.

.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #125 - March 03, 2012, 06:31 PM

Quote from: Shahid Raza on March 03, 2012, 06:15 PM
Because the debate was in Pakistan, let's also remember that Hoodbhoy couldn't have said half the things he would've liked to. He had to be diplomatic, whereas Hamza had free rein say what he wanted as vociferously as he wanted.

That is why I strongly support written debates with guys like Tortillas and Zakir Naiks and Hamza birds ., Ali Sina of FFI was right ., with that short time available on stage and these guys are well prepared for an hour debate in presence of Muslim crowd, you can not upstage them. In fact the crowd will get confused., On top of it with their Islamic antics and big mouth they just evade giving answers to rebuttals .,

That is the reason Ali Sina of FFI always restricted himself to written debates with whole lot of so-called Islamic intellectuals ., off course there is an added advantage, a big safety shield protecting anti-Islamic debater on internet debates... in home as well as on roads..

Unfortunately much of that Tortilla debate is missing.. he did come to ffi in 2006..

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #126 - March 03, 2012, 09:05 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 03, 2012, 05:05 PM
I expected him to refute Hamza's nonsense rationally and logically and not tell us why religion shouldn't be mixed with science, that is very irrelevant.

Hamza's arguments are convoluted showmanship WLC wannabe garbage - IMO he was wise for not trying to tackle his gobbledegook.

Once you get sucked into the sophistry there's little chance of escape, they'll constantly pull philosophical bullscrap out of their ass. Check out the debate with PZ myers and the IERA - PZ was smart enough not to get sucked into Hamza's philosophical ramblings...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rNtEdptaY

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #127 - March 03, 2012, 09:06 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 03, 2012, 04:38 PM
So what Hoodbhoy did was walk on a very tight rope and he has to do that without hurting sentiments of Muslims and Mullahs in Pakistan

That's the impression I got.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #128 - March 03, 2012, 09:41 PM

I think just as he lacks the expertise to make detailed arguments from cosmology, as we know from science that intuition is a poor guide to the fundamentals of reality, the same is true of his other topic, the "linguistic miracle".

He said even today on his facebook, "my very little knowledge of the arabic langauge"

To do such a thing as talking about all the amazing rhetorical devices etc. surely requires a far higher level of Arabic expertise. He is really just copying what Islamic authors have said and I doubt that he understands what he's claiming in any detail.

So he shouldn't talk about science, shouldn't talk about the "linguistic miracle". Why not retire?

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #129 - March 04, 2012, 12:53 AM

WOW, what an ending, what a shameless twat Hamza is.

Still I think Prof. Pervez could have done a better job with the debate by engaging with Hamza and refuting his mental masturbation, prof. Hoodbhoy did in the A&Q section refer to Hamza's Argument how u can't prove the existence of god through such kind of logic with Volteir's example but still he could have done a lot better.

Hamza is a cunt.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #130 - March 04, 2012, 01:14 AM

Hamza is such a weasel.
Why do people play his game?
Ask him to show the process in the Koran instead of single words and he's dead. Hamza keeps afloat by quoting single words where he ascribes different meanings to them. Insist on a coherent step-by-step description of the process as can be found in the Koran and he's dead in the water.

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There are two classes of men: intelligent men without religion and religious men without intelligence.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #131 - March 04, 2012, 01:40 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 03, 2012, 04:05 PM
OK I watched the first 60 minutes of the debate, am I missing something or Hamza kind of did a better job than prof. Pervez

Prof. Pervez was just pointing out the foibles of religion and how religious people though the earthquake was caused by God or whatever, he never tried to refute Hamzas arguments who said that it is perfectly logical to assume there is a creator or law giver and so on.

Maybe I am not bright enough to get what professor Pervez is trying to convey but it seemed to me that he didn't address the issue well and he didn't try to make an argument in favor of Rationality.

I will go on watching the rest of the debate later, maybe he did a better job there.

Anyone who is ignorant doesn't know about cosmology and psychics will agree with you. However, I can tell you Hamza was owned numerous time because made logically flawed statements. He used the first cause argument or the prime-mover argument, that argument has already been shown to be erroneous by Hume and Kant. That's just basic philosophy 101. So, Hamza did not do a better job, Hamza was shown to be immature and ignorant.

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #132 - March 04, 2012, 02:02 PM

Strum: I've already debunked Hamz's first cause argument on this forum why do you keep thinking it has some kind of validity? The Prof. is not going to waste his time debunking out-dated argument, frankly which philosophy theologians don't even use anymore. Hamza is 20/30 years behind the rest, with his debate with Dan Bakr, he was referring to the universe as the cosmos, without using the word cosmos, the cosmos has a broader-definition now, it can also include parallel universe etc. The cosmos can be infinite, but the universe finite but boundaryless.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=c87558b918e31dfb3b2fc58a9784bb94&topic=18884.0

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #133 - March 04, 2012, 02:07 PM

Hi King Tut.

I think I have read in many places how those Ontological and Theological Arguments have been debunked, I didn't say Hamza was right or what Hamza said was true I just said that Prof. Hoodbhoy could have debunked him since these claims are already outdated and refuted.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #134 - March 04, 2012, 05:29 PM

Hamza Tortilla and his inimitable quran .. well read the link

Quote
The inability of any person to produce anything like the Qur’an, due to the uniqueness of its language, is the essence of the Qur’anic miracle. A miracle is defined as “events which lie outside the productive capacity of nature”. ................The argument posed by Muslim Theologians and Philosophers is that if, with the finite set of Arabic linguistic tools at humanity’s disposal, there has been no effective challenge to try and imitate the Qur'an, then providing a naturalistic explanation for the Qur’an’s uniqueness is not sufficient. This is because the natural capacity of any author is able to produce the varying expressions known in the Arabic language. The development of an entirely unique expression is beyond the scope of the productive nature of any author, hence a supernatural entity, God, is the only sufficient comprehensive explanation ..

Look at that definition and how foolish it is.. that is tortilla way of making Quran as Miraculous book.. Stupidity has NO LIMITS when it comes to proving Quran as the word of allah/god..whatever....

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #135 - March 04, 2012, 05:35 PM

Quote from: King Tut on March 04, 2012, 02:02 PM
Strum: I've already debunked Hamz's first cause argument on this forum why do you keep thinking it has some kind of validity? The Prof. is not going to waste his time debunking out-dated argument, frankly which philosophy theologians don't even use anymore. Hamza is 20/30 years behind the rest, with his debate with Dan Bakr, he was referring to the universe as the cosmos, without using the word cosmos, the cosmos has a broader-definition now, it can also include parallel universe etc. The cosmos can be infinite, but the universe finite but boundaryless.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=c87558b918e31dfb3b2fc58a9784bb94&topic=18884.0

Given any more thought to becoming more active on youtube with your counter-arguments Tut?

Maybe Dusty can persuade you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZc8l2Fcn8

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #136 - March 04, 2012, 05:56 PM

Do people want ads for unusual videos? Or do I assume everyone here is subscribed to the usual suspects?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoEqSvePDIM

Lemme know.

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #137 - March 04, 2012, 07:59 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 04, 2012, 12:53 AM
...............

Still I think Prof. Pervez could have done a better job with the debate by engaging with Hamza and refuting....................

I am following these debates for the past 10 years., no one including their Allah can win debates with with these Islamic intellectuals on stage with 100s of Muslims cheer leading them., If the other is Muslim, he will have lot more trouble to run through the mine fields

Here is how you debate with Hamza Tortilla type of Muslims., This debate of Ali Sina Vs Hamza Tzortzis, took place in 2006 and all of it is exchanged in written words..

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/HamzaTzortzis.htm it is 10 parts read it all

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #138 - March 04, 2012, 08:33 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on March 04, 2012, 05:35 PM
Given any more thought to becoming more active on youtube with your counter-arguments Tut?

Maybe Dusty can persuade you...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZc8l2Fcn8

The thing is, I am very crap at creating new videos. Most of the time I am on my laptop which is mainly used for surfing the web, and my desktop i used to have it for gaming, now my wife never gives me a chance to get on it.

I have the content, its just compiling the content into a good quality video, something like the rationlizer did. He was great in that aspect.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #139 - March 04, 2012, 09:10 PM

Just went and skimmed through that debate, Ali Sina that old dog, was a good writer. But I was confused for a little while when he was referring to himself as "us" in 3rd person. In anycase, well worth a read.

Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #140 - March 05, 2012, 12:03 AM

Quote from: King Tut on March 04, 2012, 09:10 PM
Just went and skimmed through that debate, Ali Sina that old dog, was a good writer. But I was confused for a little while when he was referring to himself as "us" in 3rd person. In anycase, well worth a read.

I guess you are talking about when he was trying to lecture Hamza Tortilla "how to win debates with little background on the subject of the debate".. Anyways that was indeed a good debate.., Well he is doing these things since 2000.. any one interested to read all those old debates go to http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates.htm that link is missing in new FFI., in this new FFI forum format I have no idea where things are..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #141 - March 05, 2012, 12:07 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 04, 2012, 07:59 PM

I am following these debates for the past 10 years., no one including their Allah can win debates with with these Islamic intellectuals on stage with 100s of Muslims cheer leading them., If the other is Muslim, he will have lot more trouble to run through the mine fields

Here is how you debate with Hamza Tortilla type of Muslims., This debate of Ali Sina Vs Hamza Tzortzis, took place in 2006 and all of it is exchanged in written words..

http://www.faithfreedom.org/debates/HamzaTzortzis.htm it is 10 parts read it all

thanks for posting this, i will make sure i read it, i like these types of debates.

I think no one can debate this suckers because there are many many loopholes in religion, especially in Islam.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #142 - March 05, 2012, 12:21 AM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 05, 2012, 12:07 AM
thanks for posting this, i will make sure i read it, i like these types of debates.

I think no one can debate this suckers because there are many many loopholes in religion, especially in Islam.

Well it is not loopholes in religion or Islam that is a problem., but it is safety problem., People can debate openly on stage with these fools, But if you say the way you say on the internet .. Such as "Prophet of Islam as described by Muslims in Sunnah, hadith and Quran was nothing but a criminal character., and there is absolutely nothing new .. not even a one verse that is good in Qur'an which you can not find in other religion ..etc..etc.. "

Then you need a state protection Police protection and watch your back all the time., On top of it some innocent people or some Embassies get burned by such words., So why would any one want to risk their life with wasting their time and getting in to trouble?? this stuff people can do safely on internet, until every country behaves like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Malaysia...

Plenty of people in west .. Such as Dawkins, Sam Harris beat the hell out of Judaism and Christianity without any trouble in Christian universities

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #143 - March 05, 2012, 09:27 PM

Quote from: King Tut on March 04, 2012, 08:33 PM
The thing is, I am very crap at creating new videos. Most of the time I am on my laptop which is mainly used for surfing the web, and my desktop i used to have it for gaming, now my wife never gives me a chance to get on it.

I have the content, its just compiling the content into a good quality video, something like the rationlizer did. He was great in that aspect.

Last time asking;

Sorry to go on dude, but I'd love to see as part of the anti-dawah crew on youtube...

I take you don't want to do a 'vanilla' vid straight from a webcam? You can add some effects or a photo slideshow with windows movie maker.

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #144 - March 06, 2012, 12:39 AM

strangedude, I might do it not straight from the web-cam though and with a text to voice program I don't want my own voice on it for privacy reasons.

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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #145 - March 06, 2012, 04:55 AM

I'd like to see you do videos too, Tut.

The decadence and mischief-making mask a bright, original mind.

I don't like disguised voices though.
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #146 - March 06, 2012, 01:24 PM

Quote from: King Tut on March 06, 2012, 12:39 AM
strangedude, I might do it not straight from the web-cam though and with a text to voice program I don't want my own voice on it for privacy reasons.

http://www.screamingbee.com/product/MorphVOXJunior.aspx

An alternative to religion;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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Re: Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #147 - March 06, 2012, 10:24 PM

Quote from: strangestdude on March 06, 2012, 01:24 PM

http://www.screamingbee.com/product/MorphVOXJunior.aspx

Isn't it possible to "unmorph" the voice back to the original? I saw a video where someone did that to the Pak Falcons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax7628__wek
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Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #148 - September 29, 2014, 09:34 PM

he was supposed to be doing a talking in London next week, but it's not on the humanist site any more?
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Hamza Tzortzis vs Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy
Reply #149 - January 21, 2015, 08:09 PM

http://lecturelist.org/content/view_lecture/14402

Hoodbhoy doing a talk in London tomorrow
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