Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Muslim grooming gangs sti...
Today at 08:20 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 06:53 PM

New Britain
Today at 06:30 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Today at 05:33 PM

German nationalist party ...
Today at 01:15 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 01:08 PM

Russia invades Ukraine
Today at 11:01 AM

Islam and Science Fiction
February 11, 2025, 11:57 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
February 08, 2025, 01:38 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
February 06, 2025, 03:13 PM

Gaza assault
February 05, 2025, 10:04 AM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
February 03, 2025, 09:25 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The God Issue

 (Read 12727 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The God Issue
     OP - March 19, 2012, 08:09 PM

    A series of articles in the New Scientist magazine.

    I've read them, and they're quite fascinating. Nothing radically new, but they do express certain interesting minority opinions with regard to the religion and science debate. Note: You will need to register to access the articles, and they are only available for five days.*

    * Officially. I've downloaded them, so if you need them and they're no longer available, just PM me.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #1 - March 19, 2012, 08:18 PM

    Well having just read it...Or the abstract bit, seems it's rather obvious stuff...(not to sound arrogant Tongue but) similar things I've thought of before.

    ETA: Ok, guess I should register and have a better look before judging lol.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #2 - March 19, 2012, 08:20 PM

    having looked at the list of the articles... :/ yeah rather obvious stuff. Sure there might be details in each of them that I don't know but the general concepts nothing particularly new...

    ETA: Thanks for the share though!

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #3 - March 19, 2012, 08:26 PM

    Yeah, it's definitely nothing new, but I still found it interesting to read.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #4 - March 19, 2012, 08:57 PM

    how about u copy n paste them if u have membership ? Wink
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #5 - March 19, 2012, 08:58 PM

    They're too long.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #6 - March 19, 2012, 11:16 PM

    Allah (s.w.t.) exists. Deal with it.  parrot
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #7 - March 19, 2012, 11:23 PM

    I've always known you're a theist  Wink

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #8 - March 19, 2012, 11:55 PM

    Me?  whistling2

    Why, of course I believe in Allah (s.w.t.) and his Beloved Rasool (s.a.a.s).

    At least, since I converted to Salafism.  sheikh
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #9 - March 20, 2012, 12:27 PM

    I still have no idea what Zebedee believes. He described his position as one of "wishy-washy theosophism", which... doesn't help much Tongue

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #10 - March 22, 2012, 02:31 AM

    Quote
    "wishy-washy theosophism"


    Lol, I'm surprised you remember that.

    Anyhow I'd first make a distinction between the cult of theosophy started by Blavatsky et al. and the philosophical position that essentially asserts the universality of the experience of the numinous, which is essentially what I hold to. I do not believe in any inerrant book that is the verbatim word of God to man, rather I believe that humans can (and probably have done) interact with the 'unseen.'

    As for the 'Deity,' I'd say I gravitate closely to a simplified Kabbalistic/Islamic mystical conception, or even that of the Ancient Greek mystics and their followers, such as the Neoplatonists, who likewise assert the unity, indivisibility, transcendence of the divine and the immanence of the shekhinah, the divine presence. At the same time no individual, contingent, finite entity can be said to be numerically identical with the divine, although all such entities partake of the same fundamental essence, and so are inextricable from it, they do not comprise it.

    I do however part ways with traditional monotheism in that it posits that God is 'one,' which denotes finitude; one object separate from other distinct objects. Similarly, I do not believe that God has a specifically defined personality or fixed configuration of attributes, which again implies a finite or incomplete state of being. Nor could I be considered a pantheist as I do not believe that the universe, or even manifest existence itself, is God. Again, God is not limited to the contingent entities that stem from its being.

    That's the abridged version, I guess, but you get the idea.  Afro
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #11 - March 22, 2012, 06:00 AM

    I don't want to derail this thread, zbd, but I would love to hear the detailed version if you ever have the time. Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #12 - March 22, 2012, 08:32 AM

    Lol, I'm surprised you remember that.

    Anyhow I'd first make a distinction between the cult of theosophy started by Blavatsky et al. and the philosophical position that essentially asserts the universality of the experience of the numinous, which is essentially what I hold to. I do not believe in any inerrant book that is the verbatim word of God to man, rather I believe that humans can (and probably have done) interact with the 'unseen.'

    As for the 'Deity,' I'd say I gravitate closely to a simplified Kabbalistic/Islamic mystical conception, or even that of the Ancient Greek mystics and their followers, such as the Neoplatonists, who likewise assert the unity, indivisibility, transcendence of the divine and the immanence of the shekhinah, the divine presence. At the same time no individual, contingent, finite entity can be said to be numerically identical with the divine, although all such entities partake of the same fundamental essence, and so are inextricable from it, they do not comprise it.

    I do however part ways with traditional monotheism in that it posits that God is 'one,' which denotes finitude; one object separate from other distinct objects. Similarly, I do not believe that God has a specifically defined personality or fixed configuration of attributes, which again implies a finite or incomplete state of being. Nor could I be considered a pantheist as I do not believe that the universe, or even manifest existence itself, is God. Again, God is not limited to the contingent entities that stem from its being.

    That's the abridged version, I guess, but you get the idea.  Afro


    Sounds like panentheism?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #13 - March 22, 2012, 08:38 AM

    I don't understand the point of DIY deities.

    Little bit of this, little bit of that, something from there, something from those guys. Shazam! This thing I just made up is the God I will now believe in.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #14 - March 22, 2012, 09:01 AM

    Sounds like panentheism?


    Now I get it. I've been anointing my head with holy oils all along:

  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #15 - March 22, 2012, 09:05 AM

    You don't use homeopathic shampoo?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #16 - March 22, 2012, 09:13 AM

    Only once a week. It wouldn't do to overdose.
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #17 - March 22, 2012, 09:40 AM

     Cheesy

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #18 - March 22, 2012, 10:57 AM

    I don't want to derail this thread, zbd, but I would love to hear the detailed version if you ever have the time. Smiley


    Alright, if I find the time and the will.  grin12

    Quote
    Sounds like panentheism?


    Maybe, but that could also fall under the category of 'manifest existence,' no?

    Quote
    I don't understand the point of DIY deities.

    Little bit of this, little bit of that, something from there, something from those guys. Shazam! This thing I just made up is the God I will now believe in.


    My own approach is not so much an attempt to positively define the divine, but rather in adopting the via negativa the purpose is more to say what God is not rather than what it is. One may be able to draw closer and closer to Deity, but you can never reach it, especially if just using the intellect in isolation.
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #19 - March 22, 2012, 11:06 AM

    I don't understand the point of DIY deities.

    Little bit of this, little bit of that, something from there, something from those guys. Shazam! This thing I just made up is the God I will now believe in.



    Would you have american scientific research barred from access for european scientists? What really is wrong with giving every aspect of the problem of god thought and realising that ones sympathies can lie with various different previous thinkers from various different parts of the world? In fact, I would think the opposite would be the real problem - the idea of sticking dogmatically to one code above all.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #20 - March 22, 2012, 11:56 AM

    Quote
    God is not


     parrot

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #21 - March 22, 2012, 12:09 PM

    My own approach is not so much an attempt to positively define the divine, but rather in adopting the via negativa the purpose is more to say what God is not rather than what it is. One may be able to draw closer and closer to Deity, but you can never reach it, especially if just using the intellect in isolation.

    Why are you assuming there is a God? Why are you approaching an understanding of the universe with that in mind? It seems to me you are constructing your own God because you want one to exist rather than approaching what is actually out there within and without the universe, be it gods or not.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #22 - March 22, 2012, 12:15 PM

    Would you have american scientific research barred from access for european scientists?

    I don't understand the comparison. An atheist can study the same body of work without necessarily committing to the goal of refining an assumed deity. Maybe out of curiosity, drawn to the quality and charm of the work as mere literature and mythology. Nobody was suggesting the body of work should be unavailable to anyone. I just wonder why one would approach any endeavour of discovery with such a narrow goal in mind.

    What really is wrong with giving every aspect of the problem of god thought and realising that ones sympathies can lie with various different previous thinkers from various different parts of the world?

    There isn't a problem of God until you assume one exists.

    In fact, I would think the opposite would be the real problem - the idea of sticking dogmatically to one code above all.

    I'd argue that learning about the universe with the goal of finding a plausible God is closer to sticking dogmatically to something than being free of the assumption that God exists in the first place and learning about the universe, as she is, whatever her nature may be.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #23 - March 22, 2012, 02:48 PM

    @Ishina

    Quote
    Why are you assuming there is a God? Why are you approaching an understanding of the universe with that in mind? It seems to me you are constructing your own God because you want one to exist rather than approaching what is actually out there within and without the universe, be it gods or not.


    You're not drastically off the mark in characterising my position, you simply have it in reverse. I do not approach the universe with the preconception of God's existence, presumably because of some doctrinal assertion, but rather I believe that there is a God, in part, because of the universe. Put simply, I believe that the universe is an evidence of the 'One' who created it. I'm not trying to fit the universe into a preconceived theistic framework. The universe is what it is, and because it is that way, I think it points to something else outside itself, and that is the Deity.

    And of course my intellectual understanding of this is a pure construct, necessarily distinct from God itself, or for that matter anything else that exists outside of my mind. I think I stated as much in the above response to you regarding the limitations of the intellect.

    As for wanting God to exist, I can't say you're wrong on that point. But I should state that I don't really think I have a choice in 'believing.' It is my (presumably) spontaneous reaction to what I feel, see, know and understand.

    In essence, whether I'm simply deluded or not, I believe, and I do so spontaneously. I am not averse to considering what is inside and outside of the universe, it's simply that from what I see within it, I'm led to the belief in the existence of the Deity. And for me, there is no incongruence between the universe as it is and my understanding of God.

    Addendum:

    The above, I believe, also answers your statement:

    Quote
    I'd argue that learning about the universe with the goal of finding a plausible God is closer to sticking dogmatically to something than being free of the assumption that God exists in the first place and learning about the universe, as she is, whatever her nature may be.

  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #24 - March 22, 2012, 02:52 PM

    Quote
    God is not

     parrot


    We probably agree more than you'd think.  bunny
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #25 - March 22, 2012, 03:15 PM

    Whenever someone asks me why I'm an atheist, I usually answer in the same way Zebedee did up there ^, pointing out that it's something that's largely a spontaneous result of my understanding of what is around me. I think some people are just more predisposed to theism. So as long as we're all humble enough to acknowledge the limitations of our own understanding, and do not attempt to force it on others, all izz well.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #26 - March 22, 2012, 07:10 PM

    u so nice harakaat

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #27 - March 22, 2012, 07:20 PM

    Tongue

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #28 - March 22, 2012, 07:21 PM

    Only once a week. It wouldn't do to overdose.


     Cheesy
     Cheesy
     Cheesy

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The God Issue
     Reply #29 - March 22, 2012, 07:54 PM

    You're not drastically off the mark in characterising my position, you simply have it in reverse. I do not approach the universe with the preconception of God's existence, presumably because of some doctrinal assertion, but rather I believe that there is a God, in part, because of the universe. Put simply, I believe that the universe is an evidence of the 'One' who created it. I'm not trying to fit the universe into a preconceived theistic framework. The universe is what it is, and because it is that way, I think it points to something else outside itself, and that is the Deity.

    But... what is the universe? Isn't it a bit premature to suppose it was created and too soon to say it is, as a thing, evidence of something else beyond it?

    We don't even have a sample of one universe. I'd need much more than our primitive graspings of the universe to form an opinion on how it must have been fashioned, or if it must have been fashioned.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »