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 Topic: Your best arguments against Quran

 (Read 3191 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Your best arguments against Quran
     OP - March 23, 2012, 10:19 AM
    If anytime you want to start a discussion with a muslim with intentions to cast doubts about Quran...........how do you start and what arguments do you use ?
    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #1 - March 23, 2012, 01:47 PM
    Here are the basic arguments I use (sorry I can't be bothered to type them out);

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEtWi-D_ONk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_2HgdXi7c

    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #2 - March 23, 2012, 01:52 PM
    Pretty much http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=226.0

    The quran can be as flawed as it needs to be as long as Muslims believe it was handed to them in perfect, recorded perfectly, memorised and protected thoroughly.  A perfect copy of the Quran in heaven.

    Break that belief, or at least cast doubt on how absolute it's authenticity is....well for me this was the final hammer in Islam's coffin for me.

    Allah could be wrong as long as angels brought down that book.

    But if the Quran is just as pathetically held together as the Torah, how then is it superior?
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #3 - March 23, 2012, 02:18 PM
    Quote from: Azdaha ExMuslim on March 23, 2012, 10:19 AM
    If anytime you want to start a discussion with a muslim with intentions to cast doubts about Quran...........how do you start and what arguments do you use ?

    You can never use same arguments for every Muslim guy/girl you are trying to discuss/cast doubts about Quran...

    We all know very well,  that all Muslim folks are Not same ..

    For e.g. you go to this man., insult Islam/Quran as much as you want .. he will say ., Oh I see., I don't know .. may be you are right., I don't care. I have other problems to deal with"

    So...  approach has to be different for different type of people..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #4 - March 23, 2012, 05:18 PM
    there's little point having a rational conversation unless the person has seen thru the bullshit themselves at some level. If religious people were rational they wouldn't be religious in the first place. When a persons emotional attachment to religion makes them advocate paedophilia, genocide & systematically murdering children in the scriptures what can you possibly bring up that will make them reconsider their position ? When people are impervious to facts such as evolution purely because it contravenes religious scriptures whats the point of having a FACT based conversation ?
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #5 - March 23, 2012, 06:30 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on March 23, 2012, 01:47 PM
    Here are the basic arguments I use (sorry I can't be bothered to type them out);

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEtWi-D_ONk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_2HgdXi7c




    The second vid is great Smiley
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #6 - March 23, 2012, 07:07 PM
    Thanks man Afro
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #7 - March 23, 2012, 07:10 PM
    ^ ^

    I had never thought of the Free will and Iblis argument till now, I mean I had but I never tried to demonstrate that free will could work even in the case where Iblis could "see" God and get instructions directly form him he still chose not to obey.

    Good stuff, I will remember this one.

    I have also opened a topic on free will a long time ago but since this forum is slow there hasn't been much of activity.

    this is the topic:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=18940.0

    P.S: Oh, I see you have already posted there some nice vids, I watched them and subscribed to their channels.
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2012, 04:22 AM
    To your last point of something being moving when you don't know what's being said.  When I lived in foreign countries a lot of the time I was tasked with translating English songs into Spanish and sometime Portuguese. They would tell me the song was amazing and that's why they wanted it translated, but after translating it then would get a look on their face and say, "That's it?".  There was one song I can't remember but I got a laugh out of it because the guy loved the song, but it was one sentence in English repeated over and over with one word changed in each repetition.  When he got the translation back it asked, "That's it?"
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2012, 04:30 AM
    Quote from: strangestdude on March 23, 2012, 01:47 PM
    Here are the basic arguments I use (sorry I can't be bothered to type them out);

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEtWi-D_ONk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_2HgdXi7c




    I'm still confused on Hamza's claim of the immutability of the form of the Quran.  Doesn't the insertion of prose destroy any kind of immutability of form into the Quran?  It would be one thing to say that the rhyming and emphasis pattern point to only one organization of the form, but with the insertion of prose any chance of form goes out the window, or is prose inserted in a specific pattern, with a specific length, etc.  I guess I'm not understanding what exactly Hamza is claiming.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #10 - March 26, 2012, 06:22 PM
    Quote from: sturmgewehr on March 23, 2012, 07:10 PM
    ^ ^

    I had never thought of the Free will and Iblis argument till now, I mean I had but I never tried to demonstrate that free will could work even in the case where Iblis could "see" God and get instructions directly form him he still chose not to obey.


    I got that from Matt Dillahunty. I'd love to see Matt debate Hamza, I think he'd would literally embarass him. He's the best informal debater I've seen. I've learned alot from him about how to cut to the fundamentals of an argument.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08eBv0lfT5E

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Sfs65CTzA

    Maybe we should facebook Hamza to challenge Matt - Matt seems to accept any debate challenge thrown at him.  Smiley
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #11 - March 26, 2012, 06:27 PM
    Quote from: deusvult on March 25, 2012, 04:22 AM
    When he got the translation back it asked, "That's it?"


     Cheesy I think that's what went through my mind.

    Quote
    'm still confused on Hamza's claim of the immutability of the form of the Quran.  Doesn't the insertion of prose destroy any kind of immutability of form into the Quran?  It would be one thing to say that the rhyming and emphasis pattern point to only one organization of the form, but with the insertion of prose any chance of form goes out the window, or is prose inserted in a specific pattern, with a specific length, etc.  I guess I'm not understanding what exactly Hamza is claiming.



    I don't even understand what you wrote. Smiley

    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #12 - March 26, 2012, 07:39 PM
    I guess it comes from me not understanding what hamza's claim is.
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #13 - March 26, 2012, 09:35 PM
    The fact that it wasn't revealed to me.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #14 - March 26, 2012, 09:56 PM
    Always with the cryptic oneliners! Always with the cryptic oneliners!
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #15 - March 26, 2012, 10:35 PM
    ^  I presume that is z10's response to the OP. Smiley  i.e. his best argument against the Qur'an.  z10 is saying that he cannot be expected to believe Mo just because Mo said that the word of God was revealed to him.  How do we know Mo was not lying?

    Sorry if I misinterpreted you, z10. parrot
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #16 - March 26, 2012, 10:38 PM
    Yeah, why couldn't God reveal his message to all of us in an unequivocal way?
    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #17 - March 26, 2012, 11:01 PM
    I think that if God exists then it is an insult to God to think that Her only message to me was through a third party. The Qur'an may well be revelatory for Mo, but I'd have to commit shirk to discount my own experiences and establish Mo's wahi as dogmatically true for me.

    And sorry for being cryptic, I subconsciously think I'm cool for being aloof, one of my many delusions of grandeur.  lipsrsealed
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #18 - March 26, 2012, 11:02 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on March 26, 2012, 09:56 PM
    Always with the cryptic oneliners! Always with the cryptic oneliners!


     Cheesy half the time he doesn't even understand what he means, and has to go back and think about what he could have meant (or on occasion, realize that what he said made no sense and cannot be sensibly explained.)
    (I have been informed that this, however, is not one of those times.)

    Always a poet first, z10
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #19 - March 26, 2012, 11:03 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 26, 2012, 11:01 PM

    And sorry for being cryptic, I subconsciously think I'm cool for being aloof, one of my many delusions of grandeur.  lipsrsealed


    your grandeur is not a delusion  Afro
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #20 - March 26, 2012, 11:15 PM
    Quote from: z10 on March 26, 2012, 11:01 PM
    I think that if God exists then it is an insult to God to think that Her only message to me was through a third party. The Qur'an may well be revelatory for Mo, but I'd have to commit shirk to discount my own experiences and establish Mo's wahi as dogmatically true for me.


    That's better  Wink
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #21 - March 26, 2012, 11:24 PM
    this is my own idea
    -------------------------
    human were created
    placed in heaven,
    being expelled from heaven by iblis doing,
    (no not you "iblis" cember)
    being born as a good muslm
    died, go to heaven with houries
    being done in by another angel,
    again
    got thrown to another unknown planet.
    -_______-

    or I'll be damned for eternity in hell,

    eternity in heaven is too unreal for me to believe, it's unchanging .
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #22 - March 26, 2012, 11:32 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on March 26, 2012, 11:15 PM
    That's better  Wink


     Cheesy
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #23 - March 27, 2012, 12:14 AM
    Quote from: z10 on March 26, 2012, 11:01 PM
    I think that if God exists then it is an insult to God to think that Her only message to me was through a third party. The Qur'an may well be revelatory for Mo, but I'd have to commit shirk to discount my own experiences and establish Mo's wahi as dogmatically true for me.

    And sorry for being cryptic, I subconsciously think I'm cool for being aloof, one of my many delusions of grandeur.  lipsrsealed


    Good stuff, I like the highlighted part, that is called throwing back a thrown grenade.
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #24 - March 27, 2012, 08:16 PM
    Quote
    Maybe we should facebook Hamza to challenge Matt - Matt seems to accept any debate challenge thrown at him


    I would love it too.....i want to see in my life a muslim debator like zakir naik or hamza to be destroyed live ...................... but for this Matt[or anyone debating] must study islam , arabic and scientific miracles shit thoroughly ....................... because unlike christian apologists its not easy to destroy muslim apologists......
    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #25 - March 27, 2012, 08:26 PM
    Do you guys invite hamza and people like new kid "Noman Ali Khan" to debate on skype ...or have some live debate/discussion Huh?
    Disbelief doesn't justify getting tortured in eternal hell
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #26 - March 27, 2012, 10:27 PM
    Hamza won't do skype after his appearence on the magic sandwich show where he got thoroughly debunked;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE2tFb0IsIs
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #27 - March 27, 2012, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: strangestdude on March 23, 2012, 01:47 PM
    Here are the basic arguments I use (sorry I can't be bothered to type them out);

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEtWi-D_ONk

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv_2HgdXi7c



    That second vid is great.
    Join us on chat. Click here.
  • Re: Your best arguments against Quran
     Reply #28 - March 28, 2012, 09:56 AM
    Thanks  Afro
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
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