About Intentions

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About Intentions
OP - April 07, 2012, 03:40 PM

Hi everybody!

So, in case you didn't read my introductory thread (you didn't miss out on much ), I'm still a Muslim (Sunni, Pakistani family). And though I have doubts about Islam, and about God in general, my main concern is this: I am worried that my doubts, rather than being actual intellectual problems with Islam, stem from my personal wishes, which I then cover up with pseudo-moralistic concerns.

For instance, I don't want to pray 5 times a day. That "want" isn't really justified if God does exist. I should pray anyways, right?

And on an unrelated note, I find Hell to be too harsh. And I doubt the validity of the Qur'anic claims, etc etc. But what if these concerns are only caused by my not praying, and because I don't want to be accountable for my sins, I am trying to make myself believe that God does not exist? i.e., I am already biased towards one answer, so rather than seeking out the truth, I am convincing myself of one truth to make myself feel better?

So the reason I posted this is to ask: Did any of you have a similar problem when you were apostatizing? And if so, how did you figure out how "pure" your intentions to leave Islam were? A Muslim would tell me to pray to God that He purify my intentions (which I have, but again, I wonder about the sincerity of my prayer).

Thanks in advance!

-- Chepea

(PS: I'm not sure if this thread is in the right section. I couldn't decide where to put it. If it should be somewhere else, please move it. Thanks! )

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #1 - April 07, 2012, 03:49 PM

For me, towards the end (3-4 years before leaving Islam) the only thing keeping me in was a fear of hell. Hell came from the quran and the Islamic system in general, so it required Islam to be correct in all it's claims and the quram to be the word of truth for me to believe in the existence of hell. Once I read information that falsified the quran I stopped believing in hell and it all unravelled.

From where I am now, logically something needs to be proven before it becomes true, or 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'. The Quran and Islamic scriputres fail this test, there is no extraordinary proof.

And welcome btw, good luck on your path to fulfillment.

"Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

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Re: About Intentions
Reply #2 - April 07, 2012, 05:13 PM

Quote from: chepea on April 07, 2012, 03:40 PM
For instance, I don't want to pray 5 times a day. That "want" isn't really justified if God does exist. I should pray anyways, right?

If you want eternal life in Paradise.

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Re: About Intentions
Reply #3 - April 07, 2012, 08:44 PM

Quote from: chepea on April 07, 2012, 03:40 PM
And on an unrelated note, I find Hell to be too harsh. And I doubt the validity of the Qur'anic claims, etc etc. But what if these concerns are only caused by my not praying, and because I don't want to be accountable for my sins, I am trying to make myself believe that God does not exist? i.e., I am already biased towards one answer, so rather than seeking out the truth, I am convincing myself of one truth to make myself feel better?

When faced with doubt, the easiest solution is to immerse yourself deeper in the faith. This does not usually provide any answers, rather it helps bury the questions by increasing your level of blind faith. That is not a good thing, and is definitely not good for your mental health.

If you have any doubts then look into them. Discuss them if you need to. The answers you find will either strengthen or weaken your faith. It doesn't matter what reasons you have for having doubts, we are often made to feel guilty for having doubts as a deterrent, regardless of the validity of the reasons for it. Your reasoning seems sound so don't feel guilty. Go ahead and question away.

I hope you find an answer one day.

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Re: About Intentions
Reply #4 - April 07, 2012, 09:10 PM

1. You're right in that personal desires should not factor into your decision to adopt or leave a religion. Reality cares not about our whims.
2. You're adopting the attitude that Islam is the default position, and that you need to find errors or inconsistencies in Islam to justify leaving it. This is often what we're indoctrinated into thinking. However, this is not intellectually sound. Islam is not the default position (just like Christianity, Judaism, or even positive atheism are not either). Islam is a collection of claims, among many other similar collections, and it needs to prove itself right, not demand of us to prove it wrong. This is called the burden of proof.
3. It doesn't really matter what your intentions are. You could be the most perverted, debauched, evil person on earth, but if you managed to prove Fermat's last theorem right, who you are as a person doesn't matter. Your arguments stand on their own. Their validity is not related to your intentions for making them. If someone tells you otherwise, they're committing the argumentum ad hominem fallacy.
4. Consider that Christians and Mormons and Scientologists all over the world are thinking this same thought right now (read testimonials of people who've left these religions if you don't believe me.) They pray and pray and pray because they think that praying will somehow remove their doubts, when the only thing that would remove their doubts is an actual intellectual argument. Some try to bury their doubts, some pursue them. Point is: If other religions can make the same argument with equal validity (that is to say in this case, no validity), what makes Islam so special? And Islam had better be fuckin' special if it's going to ask us to follow all its ridiculous rules.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #5 - April 07, 2012, 11:20 PM

Thanks for your replies everyone!

Quote from: Sprout on April 07, 2012, 03:49 PM
For me, towards the end (3-4 years before leaving Islam) the only thing keeping me in was a fear of hell. Hell came from the quran and the Islamic system in general, so it required Islam to be correct in all it's claims and the quram to be the word of truth for me to believe in the existence of hell. Once I read information that falsified the quran I stopped believing in hell and it all unravelled.

From where I am now, logically something needs to be proven before it becomes true, or 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence'.

I agree with that. But it's kind of worrying that during *Ramadan*, I can find bucketloads of reasons that Islam is awesome (or at least better than the alternatives ), but when I'm lazy, e.g. now, I cannot. :/

Quote
The Quran and Islamic scriputres fail this test, there is no extraordinary proof.

Mmm...I dunno. Everyone on this forum seems the hate the Qur'an, but all I hate is how Goddarn convincing it is. :/ Oh, and its descriptions of Hell.

Quote
And welcome btw, good luck on your path to fulfillment.

Thank you!!

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #6 - April 07, 2012, 11:21 PM

Quote from: olweasel on April 07, 2012, 05:13 PM
If you want eternal life in Paradise.

Well...yeah. :/ Presumably nobody wants eternal torture in Hell.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #7 - April 07, 2012, 11:25 PM

Thanks for your reply PeruvianSkies! (That sort of rhymed!!!!!)

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 07, 2012, 08:44 PM
When faced with doubt, the easiest solution is to immerse yourself deeper in the faith. This does not usually provide any answers, rather it helps bury the questions by increasing your level of blind faith. That is not a good thing, and is definitely not good for your mental health.

If you have any doubts then look into them. Discuss them if you need to. The answers you find will either strengthen or weaken your faith. It doesn't matter what reasons you have for having doubts, we are often made to feel guilty for having doubts as a deterrent, regardless of the validity of the reasons for it. Your reasoning seems sound so don't feel guilty. Go ahead and question away.

I hope you find an answer one day.

Yeah...I dunno. I guess a Muslim would disagree about my reasoning being sound. (I just learned the difference between "sound" and "valid" reasoning yesterday! ) It does make sense, after all, that if Islam is true, praying to God ought to help "clear the air" or whatever...

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #8 - April 07, 2012, 11:26 PM

Quote from: chepea on April 07, 2012, 11:21 PM
Well...yeah. :/ Presumably nobody wants eternal torture in Hell.

I know many people (myself included) who would gladly go to Hell if the alternative was to worship a god like the Allah described by the Quran and the Hadeeth.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
- harakaat
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #9 - April 07, 2012, 11:27 PM

Quote from: chepea on April 07, 2012, 11:25 PM
(I just learned the difference between "sound" and "valid" reasoning yesterday! )

Someone's been talking to Prince

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
- chepea
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #10 - April 07, 2012, 11:37 PM

Quote from: harakaat on April 07, 2012, 09:10 PM
1. You're right in that personal desires should not factor into your decision to adopt or leave a religion. Reality cares not about our whims.
2. You're adopting the attitude that Islam is the default position, and that you need to find errors or inconsistencies in Islam to justify leaving it. This is often what we're indoctrinated into thinking. However, this is not intellectually sound. Islam is not the default position (just like Christianity, Judaism, or even positive atheism are not either). Islam is a collection of claims, among many other similar collections, and it needs to prove itself right, not demand of us to prove it wrong. This is called the burden of proof.
3. It doesn't really matter what your intentions are. You could be the most perverted, debauched, evil person on earth, but if you managed to prove Fermat's last theorem right, who you are as a person doesn't matter. Your arguments stand on their own. Their validity is not related to your intentions for making them. If someone tells you otherwise, they're committing the argumentum ad hominem fallacy.
4. Consider that Christians and Mormons and Scientologists all over the world are thinking this same thought right now (read testimonials of people who've left these religions if you don't believe me.) They pray and pray and pray because they think that praying will somehow remove their doubts, when the only thing that would remove their doubts is an actual intellectual argument. Some try to bury their doubts, some pursue them. Point is: If other religions can make the same argument with equal validity (that is to say in this case, no validity), what makes Islam so special? And Islam had better be fuckin' special if it's going to ask us to follow all its ridiculous rules.

1. Thanks! I like being right.

2. C'est vrai aussi. However, I've already eliminated, say, Christianity and Hinduism, and I can't go around eliminating every single religion that humans have managed to come up. Polytheism (with all due respect) isn't exactly my cup of tea, nor is pantheism or those countless other -theisms. I like monotheism and/or atheism. And again, I think my judgment is being clouded by personal whims.

I admire y'all for being about to step above your personal desires and view the whole thing objectively.

3. Hmm...I would disagree in this case. I think, as faith (or non-faith) is so complicated, intentions DO affect the final outcome. Isn't it true that atheists say that theists "want" an afterlife, so they make up religion? Clearly the intention does matter when the "proof" (for either atheism or theism) is so easily manipulated...

4. :O You don't like Islam's rules? I like most of them. Some of them are meh, I can handle them, but I think they work better once a person has actually developed God-consciousness in elevating that level of consciousness. Others I'm just lazy about performing, but I can see the value in them.

But enough about the rant...yeah, others think the same, which is obviously why one ought to be critical of their beliefs. Personally, I find the Trinity to be ridiculous, but I can't find anything equally ridiculous in Islam. *Shrug* I dunno...

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #11 - April 07, 2012, 11:56 PM

"Isn't it true that atheists say that theists "want" an afterlife, so they make up religion?"

That's not a valid argument against theism. It's a valid theory about how religion arose, but not an argument against religion.

"Clearly the intention does matter when the "proof" (for either atheism or theism) is so easily manipulated..."

The idea is not to examine the intentions. The idea is to objectively examine the argument put forth, regardless of how it may have originated. If it's a bad argument that you came up with just because you hate praying, then examining the argument itself will reveal that. But you can't dismiss the argument out-of-hand simply because you think you may have come up with it because you hate praying.

"4. :O You don't like Islam's rules? I like most of them. Some of them are meh, I can handle them, but I think they work better once a person has actually developed God-consciousness in elevating that level of consciousness. Others I'm just lazy about performing, but I can see the value in them."

No, I think Islam's rules are ridiculous Consider these:

1. Obey your husband or angels will curse you from night till morn
2. Wipe your butt with your left hand
3. Walk into a toilet with your left foot
4. Do not be friends with non-Muslims (WTF?!)
5. Do not marry a Christian or Jew if you're female, but it's totally okay if you're male
6. Kill those who leave Islam and take their money and put it in the bayt al maal (sort of the national treasury)
7. Beat your kids if they don't pray when they're 10 years old

etc, etc, etc.

"Personally, I find the Trinity to be ridiculous, but I can't find anything equally ridiculous in Islam."

Satan pissing in your ear if you don't pray? Kissing a black stone that used to be white but that sucked the sins of its kissers and turned black? The whole concept of belief determining whether you go to hell or not? The patriarchal attitude of the Quran? Creationism? Dipping a fly into your soup so its magical wing counteracts the effects of its poisonous wing? Drinking camel piss for its health benefits? Al-Khidr killing a kid because he's a kaafir? The whole "ma malakat aymanukum" system of sex slavery?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #12 - April 08, 2012, 12:16 AM

Quote from: harakaat on April 07, 2012, 11:26 PM
I know many people (myself included) who would gladly go to Hell if the alternative was to worship a god like the Allah described by the Quran and the Hadeeth.

Well, I wouldn't, thanks very much.

Quote
Someone's been talking to Prince

Yeah!!!

Quote
That's not a valid argument against theism. It's a valid theory about how religion arose, but not an argument against religion.

Clearly one affects the other, harakaat.

Quote
The idea is not to examine the intentions. The idea is to objectively examine the argument put forth, regardless of how it may have originated. If it's a bad argument that you came up with just because you hate praying, then examining the argument itself will reveal that. But you can't dismiss the argument out-of-hand simply because you think you may have come up with it because you hate praying.

But my examination of it is biased! That's what I'm saying. The intention does matter in this case (and in religious cases in general, I think), because otherwise all intelligent people would agree on one thing.

Quote
1. Obey your husband or angels will curse you from night till morn

1. Mmm....matter of perspective.

Quote
2. Wipe your butt with your left hand
3. Walk into a toilet with your left foot

2/3. Matter of developing God-consciousness, like I said.

Quote
4. Do not be friends with non-Muslims (WTF?!)

4. Never heard of it..

Quote
5. Do not marry a Christian or Jew if you're female, but it's totally okay if you're male

5. Perspective again.

Quote
6. Kill those who leave Islam and take their money and put it in the bayt al maal (sort of the national treasury)

6. Perspective, but yeah, I'm iffy about this too.

Quote
7. Beat your kids if they don't pray when they're 10 years old

7. Never heard of it.

Quote
Satan pissing in your ear if you don't pray? Kissing a black stone that used to be white but that sucked the sins of its kissers and turned black? The whole concept of belief determining whether you go to hell or not? The patriarchal attitude of the Quran? Creationism? Dipping a fly into your soup so its magical wing counteracts the effects of its poisonous wing? Drinking camel piss for its health benefits? Al-Khidr killing a kid because he's a kaafir? The whole "ma malakat aymanukum" system of sex slavery?

Slow down, dude. I've come to terms with most of these. EG:

"Satan pissing in your ear if you don't pray": Clearly a way to dissuade people from not praying. Doubt it's literal.

"Drinking a camel's..." Never heard of it. Source?

"The whole ma mala..." I don't know Arabic. :( Mind translating?

Man, I didn't expect to come to this forum and start defending Islam. LOL. I guess y'all have different reasons for leaving than I do.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #13 - April 08, 2012, 12:30 AM

"Clearly one affects the other, harakaat."

Not necessarily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

"But my examination of it is biased!"

Are you incapable of objective examination?

"1. Mmm....matter of perspective."

"5. Perspective again."

"6. Perspective, but yeah, I'm iffy about this too."

You do realize Christians and Jews and whoever can say this about the unsavory aspects of their own religions, don't you?

"4. Never heard of it.."

Quote
O ye who believe! Choose not disbelievers for (your) friends in place of believers. Would ye give Allah a clear warrant against you?

Quran 4:144.

The same verse with slightly different wording is present elsewhere in the Quran: 5:51, 5:57, 9:23, 60:1.

"7. Never heard of it."

Quote
The Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu alaihi wa sallam) said,

“Order your children to pray when they reach the age of seven and beat
them at the age of ten (if they refuse), and separate the beds”
Collected by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Al Hakim

"Clearly a way to dissuade people from not praying. Doubt it's literal."

... doesn't it strike you as an incredibly silly way to get people to pray?

""The whole ma mala..." I don't know Arabic. :( Mind translating?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_malakat_aymanukum_and_sex

"Man, I didn't expect to come to this forum and start defending Islam."

We don't have to do this if you're not comfortable with it

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #14 - April 08, 2012, 12:37 AM

Quote from: chepea on April 07, 2012, 03:40 PM
Hi everybody!

And though I have doubts about Islam,

-- Chepea

hello chepea ..
Huh! what is chepea?
what kind of pea is that??
Anyways, what good reason do you have to doubt Islam?? what did Islam do to you ??

and welcome to cemb..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #15 - April 08, 2012, 12:47 AM

@harakaat:

Quote
Not necessarily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy

Grr!! Bring up fallacy one more time and I'll hit you!

And I didn't read that link, so can you just tell me what's wrong with this reasoning:

If Religion X arose as a result of man's desires/fear of death, then it's NOT FROM God (duh), and therefore it's NOT TRUE in the sense that its followers think it is.

Sounds like an argument against religion to me. :/

Quote
Are you incapable of objective examination?

That's what this entire thread is about!!!! :/ Man.

Quote
You do realize Christians and Jews and whoever can say this about the unsavory aspects of their own religions, don't you?

Yes. But if it's a matter of perspective, I can't criticise it. And I don't.

Quote
Quran 4:144.

The same verse with slightly different wording is present elsewhere in the Quran: 5:51, 5:57, 9:23, 60:1.

Oh THAT! I remember reading that for the first time. Scared the heck out of me. I thought I'd have to delete most of my facebook friends. Luckily for me, I read the entire Qur'an. Ya can't divorce a verse from its context harakaat. Cuz I think you're capable of Googling , I'm not gonna bother explaining this. Rest assured, it has an explanation.

The Messenger of Allah (SallAllahu alaihi wa sallam) said,

Quote
“Order your children to pray when they reach the age of seven and beat
them at the age of ten (if they refuse), and separate the beds”
Collected by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, and Al Hakim

Scholarly criticism? Personally, I never take a hadith at its face value. Trying to understand hadith sciences is like trying to understand...physics or something.

Quote
... doesn't it strike you as an incredibly silly way to get people to pray?

Um. No?

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_malakat_aymanukum_and_sex

This is one of the things that I'm iffy about (read: that cause me to have doubts).

Quote
We don't have to do this if you're not comfortable with it

Naw, it's okay. I'm just surprised is all.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
- harakaat
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #16 - April 08, 2012, 12:58 AM

"If Religion X arose as a result of man's desires/fear of death, then it's NOT FROM God (duh), and therefore it's NOT TRUE in the sense that its followers think it is.

Sounds like an argument against religion to me. :/ "

We're not talking about "Religion X", we're talking about the origins of religion. Maybe primitive religions evolved for those reasons, but then Allah dictated his own, true religion.

"That's what this entire thread is about!!!! :/ Man."

Well, umm... okay

For what it's worth, I don't think you're incapable of objective examination.

"Cuz I think you're capable of Googling , I'm not gonna bother explaining this. Rest assured, it has an explanation."

Oh, trust me, anything about any religion can be rationalized away, even the existence of God (yes, I've met Muslims who don't believe in God.) It all depends on how you read the Quran. For classical theologians, they adopted a principle that said "Al-7ikma bi 3umoom al laf6' la bikhsoosiat as-sabab." As in, if the Quran says "Don't do this", you don't get to say "This doesn't apply to us anymore because it was only meant for its time period/geographical location." But the very fact that Muhammad's companions were instructed not to be friends with non-Muslims is telling, my opinion.

"Scholarly criticism? Personally, I never take a hadith at its face value. Trying to understand hadith sciences is like trying to understand...physics or something."

Again, this is obfuscation. I don't quote anything unless I know that a consensus of Muslim scholars has been reached about the issue. Sure, there are some "reformists" who have a metaphorical (and intellectually dishonest) interpretation for anything, but orthodox Muslim scholars would agree that corporal punishment is in order in this case. And... physics? Really? :/

"Um. No?"

Okay, lol.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #17 - April 08, 2012, 01:00 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 08, 2012, 12:37 AM
hello chepea ..
Huh! what is chepea?
what kind of pea is that??
Anyways, what good reason do you have to doubt Islam?? what did Islam do to you ??

and welcome to cemb..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Hi yeezevee! (If I ever misspell that in the future, I apologise in advance. ) Thanks for the welcome. I really like this place. People are so friendly and nice.

I made up the word "chepea". You're like the 4th person to ask me that, haha.

Islam hasn't ever done anything to me. :/ But what causes me to have doubts? I guess I'll list 'em:

1. I don't know what a "ruh" is and I doubt I believe in it. I don't know if this is a real doubt, but it really doesn't bode well for my "Muslim"ness.

2. I think God is harsh, unnecessarily I mean.

3. I don't think dua (supplication) makes much sense. :/ The only actual affect I can think it has is the Placebo Effect and changing the supplicator's mindset..

4. I think the Black Stone/Evil Eye are superstitious. (Lookit, harakaat, I'm not completely immune to weird religious things! )

5. I don't think Tawheed is all that important, and seeing as it's Islam's central tenet, it's kinda..um...you know. Wrong of me to think that. Haha.

6. I think God could have done well to continued to have given us prophets. Some people (eg: me) would have liked to have a living, breathing prophet who could elucidate matters, rather than fallible scholars who can't seem to agree.

7. Speaking of which, I think God left too many important things open to interpretation. Surely He would have known the problems that, say, the word "beat" in the Qur'an would have caused?

8. Also related: I don't see why there are so many radically different interpretations of Islam if the whole point of Islam is to CLARIFY on incorrect interpretations of previous religions.

9. I think that the Islamic purpose of life, while inspiring and all, doesn't really justify the enormous risk that comes along with it.

10. I think parts of the Qur'an are too temporal and related to some random Arab custom, e.g. the men who divorced their wives by calling them their mother's back. I fail to see why God would think that was relevant for all of mankind.

11. Lastly, I think that when God made our souls (which I don't know if I believe in, LOL) promise that we'd worship Him before we were born...I don't think that counts. I don't remember it first of all. What kind of promise was it? Why did I promise that? Did He tell me that it'd be so hard?

:/ Yeah......

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #18 - April 08, 2012, 01:02 AM

yeezevee:

Sorry, that was pretty long. :( I think I'm supposed to be doubting God's existence too, but to be honest, I don't. I just take it as a self-evident truth, kind of like human rights or something.

Beats me why everyone doesn't see it the same way.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #19 - April 08, 2012, 01:07 AM

Quote from: chepea on April 08, 2012, 01:02 AM
Beats me why everyone doesn't see it the same way.

How do you know that what seems to be self-evident is in fact true?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #20 - April 08, 2012, 01:08 AM

@harakaat:

Quote
How do you know that what seems to be self-evident is in fact true?

Frigging philosophy. Do you believe in human rights?

(PS: DON"T REPLY YET! I'm still replying to that other post. Hate double convos..)

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Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #21 - April 08, 2012, 01:12 AM

@harakaat,

Quote from: harakaat
We're not talking about "Religion X", we're talking about the origins of religion. Maybe primitive religions evolved for those reasons, but then Allah dictated his own, true religion.

Uhm. Okay. :/

Quote
For what it's worth, I don't think you're incapable of objective examination.

If this was a TV show, the audience would say "AWWWWWWW" right now. But thanks, haha.

Quote
Oh, trust me, anything about any religion can be rationalized away, even the existence of God (yes, I've met Muslims who don't believe in God.)

Weird Muslims. Who're they trying to kid?

Quote
It all depends on how you read the Quran. For classical theologians, they adopted a principle that said "Al-7ikma bi 3umoom al laf6' la bikhsoosiat as-sabab." As in, if the Quran says "Don't do this", you don't get to say "This doesn't apply to us anymore because it was only meant for its time period/geographical location." But the very fact that Muhammad's companions were instructed not to be friends with non-Muslims is telling, my opinion.

Didn't classical theologians also look at the historical context of verses?

Quote
Again, this is obfuscation. I don't quote anything unless I know that a consensus of Muslim scholars has been reached about the issue. Sure, there are some "reformists" who have a metaphorical (and intellectually dishonest) interpretation for anything, but orthodox Muslim scholars would agree that corporal punishment is in order in this case. And... physics? Really? :/

I hate Physics. And English.

I'm glad you know it, now could you give ME the source? If it's in Arabic, then forget about it, but if it's available in English, I'd be glad to hear it.

BTW, Saudis are the ones who form entire legal codes based on one hadith. The majority of scholars go for, I dunno, cross-examination.

But anyways. I can ask a qualified scholar about this hadith. So gimme like a week or something..

But seriously, if you're gonna criticise Islam, can you criticise the essentials? No Muslim's first thought of Islam is: "Let's hit my child if they don't pray." :/

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #22 - April 08, 2012, 01:24 AM

"Weird Muslims. Who're they trying to kid?"

I disagree. They were distinguished university professors, and some were even Sufis. (I met them at this conference about science and religion.) Just like you're allowed to pick-n-mix, choose verses to understand literally and force metaphorical interpretations on other verses and hadeeths, they're allowed to do that too.

"Didn't classical theologians also look at the historical context of verses?"

Yes, but only to derive a general rule. For example, when Muhammad married his adopted son's ex-wife, they didn't say "Oh it was a special one-time thing", but they took the verse condoning it and generalized it into a rule saying that it's okay for anyone to do so. Similarly, hadeeths like "Kill murtads" (like me ) are only thought of as outdated by a minority of scholars. The orthodoxy considers them (and the Quran) to be universal.

"now could you give ME the source?"

http://islamqa.info/en/cat/28/ref/islamqa/3347

It's common knowledge that corporal punishment is okay Islamically. Muhammad struck Aisha on the chest once.

"But seriously, if you're gonna criticise Islam, can you criticise the essentials?"

Fine, let's start with -- why do you think that Islam is the one true religion?

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
- Prince Spinoza
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- offline
Re: About Intentions
Reply #23 - April 08, 2012, 01:26 AM

I've already been through the essentials with her and she understood. She knows the conclusion. She just needs time to accept it, nothing more. That's how it always happens in my experience. No need to get into obscure hadith - it's like you've learnt nothing! -____-
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #24 - April 08, 2012, 01:27 AM

Quote from: chepea on April 08, 2012, 01:12 AM
I hate Physics. And English.

How can you like math but hate physics?!

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
- harakaat
- The Cunning Linguist
- Ex-Muslim
- The World Is Quiet Here
- offline
Re: About Intentions
Reply #25 - April 08, 2012, 01:29 AM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on April 08, 2012, 01:26 AM
No need to get into obscure hadith - it's like you've learnt nothing! -____-

I disagree. Squabbling over the minutiae of Islamic theology is half the fun of debating Muslims

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
- chepea
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #26 - April 08, 2012, 01:30 AM

Gimme some time. Have to wash dishes. :/

Prince, you're so cute. What are you guys, like professional evangelists or something?

And harakaat, I have no idea!!! One does wonder...I don't think I can handle the concepts in Physics. It takes me ages to understand ANYTHING. So stupid of me. I dropped Physics this year, but I still go to class. It's much more fun if you're not worried about marks. I highly suggest it. Plus, my teacher rocks.

When I get back, I'll tell you about my Calculus teacher. I'm in love with him too. If you're lucky, I might tell you about my other Maths' teacher.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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- offline
Re: About Intentions
Reply #27 - April 08, 2012, 01:43 AM

Quote from: harakaat on April 08, 2012, 01:29 AM
I disagree. Squabbling over the minutiae of Islamic theology is half the fun of debating Muslims

I don't think some random hadith counts as theology.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
- harakaat
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Re: About Intentions
Reply #28 - April 08, 2012, 01:48 AM

Quote from: chepea on April 08, 2012, 01:43 AM
I don't think some random hadith counts as theology.

Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, is basically textual analysis. The hadeeths are the theology. Anything that's not in the hadeeths or the Quran is a bid'ah, and those are severely frowned upon.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
- chepea
- hello! testing testing
- Ex-Muslim
- Deist-ish-maybe
- offline
Re: About Intentions
Reply #29 - April 08, 2012, 01:56 AM

Quote
I disagree. They were distinguished university professors, and some were even Sufis. (I met them at this conference about science and religion.) Just like you're allowed to pick-n-mix, choose verses to understand literally and force metaphorical interpretations on other verses and hadeeths, they're allowed to do that too.

Being a distinguished university prof doesn't make you right. And, uh, there's a vast difference between the central tenet of Islam, which is glaringly obvious, and some random hadith.

Quote
Yes, but only to derive a general rule. For example, when Muhammad married his adopted son's ex-wife, they didn't say "Oh it was a special one-time thing", but they took the verse condoning it and generalized it into a rule saying that it's okay for anyone to do so. Similarly, hadeeths like "Kill murtads" (like me ) are only thought of as outdated by a minority of scholars. The orthodoxy considers them (and the Quran) to be universal.

Am too ignorant to argue. :/

Quote
http://islamqa.info/en/cat/28/ref/islamqa/3347

Holy poo, dude, your source of Islamic knowledge is ISLAMQA? The centre of Salafism? :/ For shizzle, man!

Quote
It's common knowledge that corporal punishment is okay Islamically. Muhammad struck Aisha on the chest once.

I'm not against corporal punishment. I think it would shut a lot of jerks in my class up.

But um...I know that hadith. Striking someone isn't equivalent to beating them up.

Quote
Fine, let's start with -- why do you think that Islam is the one true religion?

Am I actually supposed to go through with this? Prince said I'm halfway there.

Fine. So as for the emotional reason: Cuz I'm born into a Muslim family. And my family happens to rock. One of these days I'll tell you guys about my smart siblings..

And cuz I like the Qur'an. Kay, I know y'all hate it, but I don't. I happen to enjoy it. And I DO think it's inimitable. I haven't read anything quite like it.

And I still think God's existence is self-evident. Humph.

Quote
Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, is basically textual analysis. The hadeeths are the theology. Anything that's not in the hadeeths or the Quran is a bid'ah, and those are severely frowned upon.

I read a book that said Islam doesn't have theology in the same sense that Christianity does. I think it's deceptive to put Islamic theology and Christian theology in the same boat. Clearly, the existence of madhabs says something about the flexibility of the legal rules.

Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

Expect me to come back a Muslim. j/k we'll see..
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