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Theme Changer

 Topic: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?

 (Read 8373 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     OP - April 12, 2012, 03:48 PM

    I decided to make a thread about this after the subject came up in my Tariq Ali thread:

    Thing is though, I think secularism/atheism divorced from a larger political context isn't very useful. Any serious headway secularists and atheists have ever made in social/political policy has always been part of a larger political package-- in the 18th and 19th centuries it was Classical Liberalism, in the 20th it was Socialism, Social Democracy and Communism. I think the idea that some atheists have that they're gonna turn this into a civil rights struggle for those who identify as non-religious is nonsense-- it's not gonna happen. Actually, maybe this deserves its own thread.


    This "new atheist" movement-- advocacy of secularism, atheism and freethought independent of a broader political context-- has been around since the 1960s, and gained more popular currency in the last couple of decades. Now I'm not saying it's had no impact-- it's getting the issues discussed and putting a public face on nonbelief-- that's a good thing and it's important. But concrete political/social gains? Mmmm, not so much. In the US and UK it actually appears as if things have been moving backwards on that front. Now in the UK you might be able to pin some of the cause on multiculturalism and immigration, but in the US that's simply not the case-- it's just straight-up social reaction by politically well-organized Christians.

    Which is why I say getting the word out there about nonbelief and having the public debate is all well and good, but it ultimately doesn't mean shit if it lacks political/social organization and power-- which is something the religious do have. And you're gonna have a very hard time getting a redoubtable political organization/movement to coalesce solely around secularism or atheism. It needs to be part of a broader political agenda otherwise, whether it's Muslims in the UK or Christians in the US, you're gonna be out-organized and out-mobilized by the opposition. In the US and UK there are no major political parties with a strong ideological or practical interest in secularism, which is why it's so easy for Muslims in the UK and Christians in the US to organize and get those parties to bend to their wishes, but so difficult for us to get them to stand up for these basic principles under pressure from our much better organized opposition.

    So that's my opinion. Dawkins, Hitchens, and folks like that have their role, but they can't be true leaders of a secularist movement because they aren't organizing a movement with a broader political agenda. What say you?

    fuck you
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #1 - April 12, 2012, 04:00 PM

    But that's just it. Atheism isn't a political thing for most people. It's an individual, personal thing. There is some truth to the stereotype that atheists are typically independant creatures. And they have typically shaken off some form of structured and organised lifestyle and might be reluctant to associate with such a collective endeavour.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #2 - April 12, 2012, 04:05 PM

    Well, that's a problem if those same atheists want political policies that respect their rights. Unless you have "fuck you" money, the only way to have your rights respected and your voice heard at the higher levels of society is through well-organized collective action.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #3 - April 12, 2012, 04:16 PM

    But you can push for political and social change without appeals to religious belief or lack thereof. For many religious people, their religion and their politics are one and the same. Not so much with atheists. For many atheists, their atheism amounts to nothing more than an opinion on the nature of the cosmos and the human condition, which has little to do with how they want their country to be run. And bringing religious identity into politics seems to do more harm than good anyway. It seems to me to be one of the most divisive ideas in play.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #4 - April 12, 2012, 04:22 PM

    But you can push for political and social change without appeals to religious belief or lack thereof. For many religious people, their religion and their politics are one and the same. Not so much with atheists. For many atheists, their atheism amounts to nothing more than an opinion on the nature of the cosmos and the human condition, which has little to do with how they want their country to be run. And bringing religious identity into politics seems to do more harm than good anyway. It seems to me to be one of the most divisive ideas in play.


    But without solid secular principles as part of political ideology, political leaders can always be brought to the bidding of the religious, even if your constitution is solidly secular. Bottom line-- if atheists lack a political movement which has secularism as a solid ideological plank, then their rights will always be under assault from the religious. All progress for secularism up to this point has been part of a broader political/ideological movement-- the reason we've been moving backwards is prominent atheists/secularists have tried to divorce the two, trying to make it into an identity-based civil rights struggle, which is organizationally stupid in my opinion.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #5 - April 12, 2012, 04:35 PM

    It's different here in the UK. The UK is quite comfortably secular already. Religious identity isn't part of the mainstream identity. If secularism is ever threatened, the responsive position comprises of people of all shapes, colours and creeds. We need not fight for secularism, we need only staunchly protect the secularism that already exists. Any fight for a secular ideal ought to be focussed on the relatively small, localised, isolated hamlets of religious community where the greater values of the nation are being neglected or outright violated.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #6 - April 12, 2012, 09:14 PM

    Well fuck you complacent, spoiled limeys then. Go watch the footy on the telly while drinking a pinty at the pubby. Or have a tea party with watercress sandwiches or whatever it is you people do in your safe little European island home.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #7 - April 12, 2012, 09:27 PM

    *gives Q-man a cup of tea and cream custards*
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #8 - April 12, 2012, 09:28 PM

    Well fuck you complacent, spoiled limeys then. Go watch the footy on the telly while drinking a pinty at the pubby. Or have a tea party with watercress sandwiches or whatever it is you people do in your safe little European island home.


    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    When does that JOTM thing start? I want to give it to Colonel Q-Daffi!!!! If only his namesake's antics had been this funny...

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #9 - April 12, 2012, 10:00 PM

    Thanks, but are you kidding? Qadaffi was hilarious! He fuckin brought his own tent to stay in at the UN and for other state visits, had all female bodyguards like some kind of Bond villain, and dressed all sharp and flamboyant, and would say all kinds of crazy shi,t and had a big, public crush on Condoleeza Rice. He was definitely good for a laugh.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #10 - April 12, 2012, 10:26 PM

    *waiting for Ish* popcorn

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #11 - April 12, 2012, 10:43 PM

    *gives Q-man a cup of tea and cream custards custard creams*


    The spelling is important to me, as these biscuits have had a significant influence on my life.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #12 - April 12, 2012, 10:55 PM

    It's different here in the UK. The UK is quite comfortably secular already. Religious identity isn't part of the mainstream identity. If secularism is ever threatened, the responsive position comprises of people of all shapes, colours and creeds. We need not fight for secularism, we need only staunchly protect the secularism that already exists. Any fight for a secular ideal ought to be focussed on the relatively small, localised, isolated hamlets of religious community where the greater values of the nation are being neglected or outright violated.


     Afro

    The whole Warsi affair threw these issues into relief and what it emphasised beyond the immediate debate was how much the secular settlement is the default one across society. Britain takes it for granted. Which is a good thing, but it has its downsides. A good thing is that it has seeped into the DNA of society, into its reflexes in many ways, it is fundamentally attitudinal. And so it wears that lightly on its sleeve. The downside is that we become a little complacent because of that, and so we assume that the issue is resolved, when the truth is that secularism and a secular ethic has to be fought and argued for, that you have to be vigilant about it.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #13 - April 12, 2012, 10:59 PM

    The spelling is important to me, as these biscuits have had a significant influence on my life.


    Cream custards sounds better.
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #14 - April 12, 2012, 11:14 PM

    Cream custards sounds better.

    And custard tarts taste better.

  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #15 - April 12, 2012, 11:18 PM

    Well fuck you complacent, spoiled limeys then. Go watch the footy on the telly while drinking a pinty at the pubby. Or have a tea party with watercress sandwiches or whatever it is you people do in your safe little European island home.

    Oh yeah? Well go watch hand egg while eating chicken from a bucket and masturbating wrapped up in flag or whatever it is you do in that novelty experiment country.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #16 - April 12, 2012, 11:20 PM

     Cheesy Cheesy popcorn Cheesy Cheesy

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #17 - April 12, 2012, 11:38 PM

    I was just waiting for that  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #18 - April 13, 2012, 01:13 AM

    Thanks, but are you kidding? Qadaffi was hilarious! He fuckin brought his own tent to stay in at the UN and for other state visits, had all female bodyguards like some kind of Bond villain, and dressed all sharp and flamboyant, and would say all kinds of crazy shi,t and had a big, public crush on Condoleeza Rice. He was definitely good for a laugh.

    I feel kind of bad for him..he was clearly mental. :/ But not VERY bad, cuz he killed people.

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #19 - April 13, 2012, 01:18 AM

    Oh yeah? Well go watch hand egg while eating chicken from a bucket and masturbating wrapped up in flag or whatever it is you do in that novelty experiment country that kicked your spotted dick-eatin asses out.


    FIFY

    I feel kind of bad for him..he was clearly mental. :/ But not VERY bad, cuz he killed people.


    Every head of state kills people, every single one.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #20 - April 13, 2012, 01:23 AM

    ^^ That's depressing... I like thinking of presidents/prime ministers/rulers as sort of, our representatives, even if we don't like them. You know. They can't be ALL bad. They have families and stuff...

    But I guess they can't be all good either.  Undecided

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #21 - April 13, 2012, 02:42 AM


    Every head of state kills people, every single one.


    Quote
    I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men, with a favorable presumption that they did not wrong. If there is any presumption it is the other way against holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility.

    All power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority.

    Lord John Dalberg Acton,

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #22 - April 13, 2012, 04:57 AM

    Has there really been a "new atheist movement" of any significance in the USA? If so I haven't really heard about them or anything that they've managed to accomplish. Over here atheism pretty much still seems to be one of the "dirty words" like communism, anarchism, etc.

    The baby steps of recognition of human rights and equal protection I think come first before all this talk of a "larger political movement" can really be put on the table, and the more successful US atheists are working on exactly those fronts.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #23 - April 13, 2012, 05:27 AM

    FIFY

    Every head of state kills people, every single one.

    Sure  STALIN

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #24 - April 13, 2012, 05:46 AM

    I decided to make a thread about this after the subject came up in my Tariq Ali thread:

    This "new atheist" movement-- advocacy of secularism, atheism and freethought independent of a broader political context-- has been around since the 1960s, and gained more popular currency in the last couple of decades. Now I'm not saying it's had no impact-- it's getting the issues discussed and putting a public face on nonbelief-- that's a good thing and it's important. But concrete political/social gains? Mmmm, not so much. In the US and UK it actually appears as if things have been moving backwards on that front. Now in the UK you might be able to pin some of the cause on multiculturalism and immigration, but in the US that's simply not the case-- it's just straight-up social reaction by politically well-organized Christians.

    Which is why I say getting the word out there about nonbelief and having the public debate is all well and good, but it ultimately doesn't mean shit if it lacks political/social organization and power-- which is something the religious do have. And you're gonna have a very hard time getting a redoubtable political organization/movement to coalesce solely around secularism or atheism. It needs to be part of a broader political agenda otherwise, whether it's Muslims in the UK or Christians in the US, you're gonna be out-organized and out-mobilized by the opposition. In the US and UK there are no major political parties with a strong ideological or practical interest in secularism, which is why it's so easy for Muslims in the UK and Christians in the US to organize and get those parties to bend to their wishes, but so difficult for us to get them to stand up for these basic principles under pressure from our much better organized opposition.

    So that's my opinion. Dawkins, Hitchens, and folks like that have their role, but they can't be true leaders of a secularist movement because they aren't organizing a movement with a broader political agenda. What say you?


    What did the Nazi- Russian alliance do for the Popular Front and the NNC? Connections to wider political movements tore the balls off the desegregation movement for over 20 years.  It allowed  Fascists to claim that any movement towards desegregation was a plot from Russia and not an organic internal movement.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #25 - April 13, 2012, 12:46 PM

    Has there really been a "new atheist movement" of any significance in the USA?


    American Atheists. Its founder got prayer in schools overturned via a Supreme Court decision.

    Quote
    If so I haven't really heard about them or anything that they've managed to accomplish. Over here atheism pretty much still seems to be one of the "dirty words" like communism, anarchism, etc.


    Well, that's kinda my point isn't it? They've accomplished some but really not all that much-- that requires a broader political movement.

    Quote
    The baby steps of recognition of human rights and equal protection I think come first before all this talk of a "larger political movement" can really be put on the table, and the more successful US atheists are working on exactly those fronts.


    See, I think that's ass-backwards. Most Americans don't give a fuck about that stuff and the only way you'll get them to fight for it is by including it in a broader political agenda that includes concrete demands for material improvements to the average person's life. You're not gonna give two shits about the Ten Commandments being placed in a courthouse or atheists not being allowed to include a Tree of Reason at a holiday display at town hall when you're unemployed, or your wages just got cut, or your employer jacked up your insurance premiums, or dropped your health insurance entirely, or your son just got locked up for having an 8 ball of coke on him.

    What did the Nazi- Russian alliance do for the Popular Front and the NNC?


    The Popular Front was arguably always a vehicle for Stalin's foreign policy ambitions and a compromise with the West, and was opposed by Trotsky. I hardly think that you can use Stalin's radical shifts in policy to indict connecting secularism to a broader political movement in general.

    Quote
    Connections to wider political movements tore the balls off the desegregation movement for over 20 years.  It allowed  Fascists to claim that any movement towards desegregation was a plot from Russia and not an organic internal movement.  


    Oh please, you really think Jim Crow would have been any less viciously defended had the Communists never been involved in the Civil Rights struggle at all? Besides, the high point of Communist involvement was in the 30s and 40s before communism had developed such a bad rap in the US, and back then the commies were the ONLY ones willing to do jack shit because the liberals had sold them out so that they could maintain a Democratic majority for FDR. Finally, I already made explicit that I don't think the modern atheist analogy to the Civil Rights struggle was valid-- secularism has never been won on the basis of the nonreligious as an identity group before, and it won't now.

    fuck you
  • Re: Does secularism have any relevance outside of a broader political movement?
     Reply #26 - April 13, 2012, 06:21 PM

    And custard tarts taste better.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    I prefer Jam tarts. Yum.
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