Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Dutch elections
by zeca
Today at 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Today at 08:46 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 06:07 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 06:36 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 13, 2024, 05:18 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 04, 2024, 03:51 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

New Britain
October 30, 2024, 08:34 PM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
October 22, 2024, 09:05 PM

Tariq Ramadan Accused of ...
September 11, 2024, 01:37 PM

France Muslims were in d...
September 05, 2024, 03:21 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Leaving CEMB

 (Read 19084 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #30 - May 12, 2012, 08:34 AM

    Now can someone tell me how they derive objective morals without a religion?

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #31 - May 12, 2012, 08:35 AM

    Wow, happy for you.

    Are you sticking around?

    Thanks. Smiley

    Yep. Kinda busy at the moment tbh, have two exams next week (anyone else doing AP?), but yeah. Smiley

    I've been meaning to ask you: Why's your name Sprout?

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #32 - May 12, 2012, 08:35 AM

    You can't. They're all subjective. Smiley

    And I would have wished you well, but I thought you had already gone. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #33 - May 12, 2012, 08:35 AM

    That didnt last a week  Cheesy

    Welcome back  far away hug

    井の中の蛙大海を知らず。
    (I no naka no kawazu taikai wo shirazu)
    A frog in a well does not know the great sea.
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #34 - May 12, 2012, 08:36 AM

    Grin You're doomed now. Allah is gonna boil you in pig fat. dance

    ....maybe I'm just too emotionally attached to Islam, I don't really want to joke about Allah. Tongue

    And pigs make me sick. I touched a dog yesterday, ugh. I hate dogs and pigs, and spiders.

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #35 - May 12, 2012, 08:37 AM

    You can't. They're all subjective. Smiley

    And I would have wished you well, but I thought you had already gone. Tongue

    Yeah yeah whatever.

    They're subjective? :/ I don't like that conclusion...Tongue

    ALL morals? What about principles? What about the moral: "It's wrong to kill"? Is that subjective too?  Do you base it on societal good? And if so, does that mean you can't censure someone who doesn't base their moral system on what's beneficial for society?

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #36 - May 12, 2012, 08:38 AM

    hugs Welcome back chepea

     far away hug Thanks Smiley

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #37 - May 12, 2012, 08:39 AM

    Thanks. Smiley

    Yep. Kinda busy at the moment tbh, have two exams next week (anyone else doing AP?), but yeah. Smiley

    I've been meaning to ask you: Why's your name Sprout?


    Awesome, good luck with your exams, please, PLEASE stick around though.

    Also, my name is sprout because I was looking for a new name and I just opened up the dictionary on a random word and that was it.

    Anyway, welcome back.

    "Nobody who lived through the '50s thought the '60s could've existed. So there's always hope."-Tuli Kupferberg

    What apple stores are like.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QmZWv-eBI
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #38 - May 12, 2012, 08:40 AM

    Awesome, good luck with your exams, please, PLEASE stick around though.

    Also, my name is sprout because I was looking for a new name and I just opened up the dictionary on a random word and that was it.

    Anyway, welcome back.


    Thanks! Smiley

    Ohhh right. Kind of like when some people open the Qur'an on a random page for guidance? Always thought that was kind of superstitious, but I think it's a cultural thing, not a religious one...

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #39 - May 12, 2012, 08:45 AM

    Now can someone tell me how they derive objective morals without a religion?


    Depends on what you mean by objective.  Objective in the sense of cosmic, eternally written in the fabric of space and time morals? No. Honestly if that were true you really wouldn't need a prophet at all because people could figure it out on their own. No one can give a "written in the fabric of time and space morals for all eternity". But if you mean objective in the sense that as human beings we can agree that certain things are wrong, then yes I think that can be done.  A lot of morals are subjective though and you have to think out what morals you think work better and which ones don't.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #40 - May 12, 2012, 08:47 AM

    They're subjective? :/ I don't like that conclusion...Tongue

    I never suggested that you did like it. Grin


    Quote
    ALL morals? What about principles? What about the moral: "It's wrong to kill"? Is that subjective too?  Do you base it on societal good? And if so, does that mean you can't censure someone who doesn't base their moral system on what's beneficial for society?

    Ah. Well this is where you'll get arguments. I base it all on utilitarian calculations, which in turn are based on my own preferences.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #41 - May 12, 2012, 08:52 AM

    @deusvult,

    Sick avatar man. Smiley

    Depends on what you mean by objective.  Objective in the sense of cosmic, eternally written in the fabric of space and time morals? No. Honestly if that were true you really wouldn't need a prophet at all because people could figure it out on their own. No one can give a "written in the fabric of time and space morals for all eternity". But if you mean objective in the sense that as human beings we all agree that certain things are wrong, then yes I think that can be done.  A lot of morals are subjective though and you have to think out what morals you think work better and which ones don't.  

    I'm not sure what I mean by "objective morals" exactly. I guess objective morals only make sense from a religious POV. Smiley Wouldn't all humans agreeing on morals make them 'universal', not 'objective' per se? :/

    It's so weird having to redefine your moral structure! Tongue

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #42 - May 12, 2012, 08:54 AM

    Wouldn't all humans agreeing on morals make them 'universal', not 'objective' per se?

    That's how I'd look at it. The word "objective" has an implication of correctness, and argumentum ad populum is no guarantee of anything actually being right. Calling them universal seems more accurate to me.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #43 - May 12, 2012, 08:55 AM

    LMAO Chepea  Cheesy

    <3

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #44 - May 12, 2012, 08:56 AM

    I never suggested that you did like it. Grin

    Ah. Well this is where you'll get arguments. I base it all on utilitarian calculations, which in turn are based on my own preferences.


    Oh...right. Tongue Thanks!!! Smiley

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #45 - May 12, 2012, 08:57 AM

    LMAO Chepea  Cheesy

    <3

    <3

    (Thinks: Heh, pretty Stardust likes me...)

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #46 - May 12, 2012, 08:58 AM

    That's how I'd look at it. The word "objective" has an implication of correctness, and argumentum ad populum is no guarantee of anything actually being right. Calling them universal seems more accurate to me.

     dance Yay, I was right! Smiley Thanks Os.

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #47 - May 12, 2012, 08:59 AM

    The mere fact that you happen to agree with me does not necessarily mean that you're right. Grin

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #48 - May 12, 2012, 09:00 AM

    No, it means that YOU'RE right. Cheesy

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #49 - May 12, 2012, 09:02 AM

    Ah. I like the logic there, as long as you keep agreeing with me. grin12

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #50 - May 12, 2012, 09:05 AM

    You've got it the wrong way around. YOU'RE agreeing with ME, not vice versa.

    Here's an easy way to remember it: I am the standard (the pillar of rightness, if you will), and you are the lost & confused human who is trying to align his views with mine in the desert of life.

    We cool now? Good. Wink

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #51 - May 12, 2012, 09:07 AM

    No problem. As long as you keep agreeing with me. dance

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #52 - May 12, 2012, 09:08 AM

     comp26 You're too young to understand.


    Tongue

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #53 - May 12, 2012, 09:09 AM

    @deusvult,

    Sick avatar man. Smiley
    I'm not sure what I mean by "objective morals" exactly. I guess objective morals only make sense from a religious POV. Smiley Wouldn't all humans agreeing on morals make them 'universal', not 'objective' per se? :/

    It's so weird having to redefine your moral structure! Tongue


    Not really.  I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of religious believers don't believe completely in whoever's religion they belong to. I mean have you read some of the Hadith and go, you know that doesn't make a lot of sense instead of going yea that is woven in the natural fabric of the universe and is completely and absolutely true.  There are parts of the hadith and quran that allude to this in saying " Hey I know this doesn't make a lot of sense to you normal people, but hey I'm God so I'm right and you're wrong so don't question and do what I say" Which come to think of it, is a lot of religion. Now does that sound like a being elucidating the transendent moral order of the universe or a person trying to convince people to go against their better judgement to achieve whatever political gains he/she or it wanted? When you think of homosexuals and you get past the inicial ick factor, which religions rely on so heavily do you really think there is some objective reason why someone who is naturally attracted to the same sex and acts on those desires without harming anyone else should be killed? I'm willing to be you'd say, "well not really".  And so "objective morality" is reduced to begging you believe that some unknown being knows more than you, but won't tell you why homosexuals should be killed.  

    I'm willing to bet your "subjective morality" is better tuned than any of the "objective morality" systems out there.  

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #54 - May 12, 2012, 09:11 AM

    comp26 You're too young to understand.


    Tongue

    Grin I'm 51, kiddo. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #55 - May 12, 2012, 09:12 AM

    Chepea is an old soul

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #56 - May 12, 2012, 09:14 AM

    Mine is older. Tongue

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #57 - May 12, 2012, 09:16 AM

    Not really.  I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of religious believers don't believe completely in whoever's religion they belong to. I mean have you read some of the Hadith and go, you know that doesn't make a lot of sense instead of going yea that is woven in the natural fabric of the universe and is completely and absolutely true.  There are parts of the hadith and quran that allude to this in saying " Hey I know this doesn't make a lot of sense to you normal people, but hey I'm God so I'm right and you're wrong so don't question and do what I say" Which come to think of it, is a lot of religion.  

    Well, that does make sense if the religion is from God. I mean, if the religion IS from God, then naturally everything within it (assuming it's free from corruption) is morally correct.

    Quote
    Now does that sound like a being elucidating the transendent moral order of the universe or a person trying to convince people to go against their better judgement to achieve whatever political gains he/she or it wanted?

     
    I don't see the political relevance of homosexuality in Muhammad's time. (Still tempted to write "Peace be upon him"...)

    Quote
    When you think of homosexuals and you get past the inicial ick factor, which religions rely on so heavily do you really think there is some objective reason why someone who is naturally attracted to the same sex and acts on those desires without harming anyone else should be killed? I'm willing to be you'd say, "well not really".

     
    I'd say: "Well not really, to the best of my knowledge."

    And that's what makes the difference. God would have perfect knowledge, and obviously mankind's knowledge is increasing, plus we gain knowledge from our collective experiences and history too. So our moral standards, if based on simply our reasoning, are subject to revision whenever we learn something new -- which is like, every second. Tongue

    Quote
    And so "objective morality" is reduced to begging you believe that some unknown being knows more than you, but won't tell you why homosexuals should be killed.  

    Yeah, pretty much. But I guess all moral systems have to rely on common sense to some degree.

    Quote
    I'm willing to bet your "subjective morality" is better tuned than any of the "objective morality" systems out there.

    In your opinion. Tongue

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #58 - May 12, 2012, 09:16 AM

    Grin I'm 51, kiddo. Tongue

    WHOA seriously? :O And you can use a computer?

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Re: Leaving CEMB
     Reply #59 - May 12, 2012, 09:16 AM

    Chepea is an old soul

     far away hug

     dance dance Thanks dude.

    Self ban for Ramadan (THAT RHYMES)

    Expect me to come back a Muslim. Cool Tongue j/k we'll see..
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »