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 Topic: polytheism / monotheism

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  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #60 - October 19, 2012, 10:59 PM

    Quote
    But i do my best to be sincere


    Yes, and its refreshing, it really is. Your sincerity is admirable, even though the theology you subscribe to is morally degenerate and inhuman.

    Quote
    are you talking about World at large or this Forum


    No - I'm talking about the effect that the supremacist, chauvinistic beliefs of Islam, articulated with  sincerity by believers, has on non Muslims.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #61 - October 19, 2012, 11:01 PM

    How does one know what God's perspective is.


    AminRiaz, this is your own quote from earlier. Can you please explain to us how you know what you claim to know as being "god's perspective"?

    Please give us the exact evidence for how you came to accept that the proof you believe is god's perspective is actually god's perspective. That means, a book saying it itself is true does not count as proof. Anyone and any book can say it is itself true. That's not evidence, that's circular reasoning.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #62 - October 19, 2012, 11:09 PM

    Quote
    Yes, and its refreshing, it really is. Your sincerity is admirable, even though the theology you subscribe to is morally degenerate and inhuman.


    Are you patronising me?  Huh? - Also the rest is - stating the obvious. You have already said that. Why say it again? To whom? Saying that wouldn't make slightest bit of difference to me. At least answering an argument causes one to think.

    - - -

    Quote
    No - I'm talking about the effect that the supremacist, chauvinistic beliefs of Islam, articulated with  sincerity by believers, has on non Muslims.


    Sure - but there isn't one group of non-Muslims - it a group of differing compositions. Christians one can claim are far closer to Islam that say Atheists. Then on same counts . . . "supremacist, chauvinistic beliefs of Islam" many other ideologies fall within this category. Then your earlier claim was:

    Quote
    Because Muslims say this nonsense about Muhammad and Allah with such sincerity and ferocity and hatefulness people tend to try and be polite so as not to provoke the mad men in the room.


    People aren't as you put it "polite". . . . and there isn't one group of Muslims Vs the non-Muslims - that is an obviously mistaken impression. 



  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #63 - October 19, 2012, 11:12 PM

    Quote
    AminRiaz, this is your own quote from earlier. Can you please explain to us how you know what you claim to know as being "god's perspective"?


    In Islam - God's perspective is limited to the Quran. [Or to some Hadith]

    - - -

    Quote
    Please give us the exact evidence for how you came to accept that the proof you believe is god's perspective is actually god's perspective. That means, a book saying it itself is true does not count as proof. Anyone and any book can say it is itself true. That's not evidence, that's circular reasoning.


    In short - testimony and claim of Prophet Muhammad.
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #64 - October 19, 2012, 11:13 PM

    In Islam - God's perspective is limited to the Quran. [Or to some Hadith]

    - - -

    In short - testimony and claim of Prophet Muhammad.



    How do you know these are true?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #65 - October 19, 2012, 11:13 PM

    Billy - you brought up Hinduism - and I wondered after your belief/non-belief or perspective?
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #66 - October 19, 2012, 11:15 PM

    Do you assume I have not come across such "objections" before - and not thought about it?


    Hmm, seems to me that you have not thought about it very much. Because everytime I ask you to identify an element of Islam that exists in other cultures that had no contact with Islam you cannot, and the excuse you use is that you don't know, so clearly you have not even looked into these discrepancies.

    According to Islam - only about 313 different laws were sent.


    What? Are you saying that Mo received 313 laws? or that 313 prophets received different sets of laws?

    I don't actually know whether Allah ordered circumcision for others or not.


    I don't think any other non-Semitic cultures practiced circumcision. Don't you find it odd that Allah would send a rule like that to one specific culture?

    India - Messengers were sent - but were refused. According to Muslim Sufis.


    Well that is not a source, that is just some random Muslims who may never have even been to India, telling stories.

    Ok how about the Angel Gabriel? Muslims love to point out that the same characters appear in Islam as in Christianity. But why did the Angel Gabriel only appear to people that were already in contact with the Jews and so had already heard of him?

    Why did the Aztecs or the Mayans or the Incans, or the Chinese, or the native peoples of Hawaii never get visited by the Angel Gabriel? Don't you find that to be rather suspicious?
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #67 - October 19, 2012, 11:18 PM

    How do you know these are true?


    I don't - not as an absolute and definitively or knowledge on those basis - but I believe Islam to be true. The root is - that my mind simply DOES NOT accept Atheism. I have thought about it - and I read as much as possible. Islam [its strand Sufism] to me makes the most sense.
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #68 - October 19, 2012, 11:19 PM

    I don't - not as an absolute and definitively or knowledge on those basis - but I believe Islam to be true. The root is - that my mind simply DOES NOT accept Atheism. I have thought about it - and I read as much as possible. Islam [its strand Sufism] to me makes the most sense.


    The choices in life are not just atheism and islam. Thank you for admitting that you do not know whether islam is actually true or not. That's the honesty billy was commending you for and I second him in that.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #69 - October 19, 2012, 11:36 PM

    Quote
    Hmm, seems to me that you have not thought about it very much. Because everytime I ask you to identify an element of Islam that exists in other cultures that had no contact with Islam you cannot, and the excuse you use is that you don't know, so clearly you have not even looked into these discrepancies.


    "excuse you use is that you don't know" - how is this an excuse? It is stating that I do not know. Where I do not know something - I say it straight out. What is more the case - as i started earlier - you wish to e . . . beat me in some kind of "debate" - I don't know why that would give you credence . . . but why this type of questioning?

    "Because everytime I ask you to identify an element of Islam that exists in other cultures that had no contact with Islam you cannot"

    Actually - I can bring up many many similarities if you wish - however that WOULD not automatically mean that they are from Islam-strand. Because [and this is an important point] there is NO absolute way of knowing. Also - Islam disclosed only limited amount of information regarding other faiths.

    Also - I can claim say something of Buddhism was from Allah - and we can argue till the end of Earth - but to an avail - as neither will have any conclusive proof.

    "so clearly you have not even looked into these discrepancies."

    Which discrepancies have you brought forward? None.

    - - -

    Quote
    What? Are you saying that Mo received 313 laws? or that 313 prophets received different sets of laws?


    Look you can whatever attitude you wish - the person's name was Mohammed. But if you are going to be like this - I will simply not answer. I meant the second.

    - - -

    Quote
    I don't think any other non-Semitic cultures practiced circumcision. Don't you find it odd that Allah would send a rule like that to one specific culture?


    Sorry - but that is not true - as you say "think" - that implies you don't either. Ancient cultures before Islam that are non-semitic did used to practice circumcision - but {!Important} - I do not know - and neither can you - whether that was down to Allah or not. hence I said plainly - No. Rather than making things up.

    - - -

    Quote
    Why did the Aztecs or the Mayans or the Incans, or the Chinese, or the native peoples of Hawaii never get visited by the Angel Gabriel? Don't you find that to be rather suspicious?


    Those ancient communities too were sent messengers. That is according to Islam. But how do you know - that they don't have different names for them? For example - Judaism, Aramaic and Arabic are sister langauges - hence the name Gabriel - is recognizable.  

    - - -

    Quote
    Well that is not a source, that is just some random Muslims who may never have even been to India, telling stories.


    Ah? How do you know? Just because similarities exist . . . that still isn't definitive proof - one way or the other.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #70 - October 19, 2012, 11:42 PM

    Quote
    The choices in life are not just atheism and islam.


    Yes - But

    In belief Vs non-belief - It is choice of one or the other . . . . rest more or less are sub categories of the rest.

    - - -

    Quote
    Thank you for admitting that you do not know whether islam is actually true or not.


    I simply believe it to be true - I have my reasoning for it - but absolute definitive proof that would put anyone's mind at rest - I don't claim that. But it isn't admitting to any great truth though - Islam, Christianity . . . I think people already recognize that. 
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #71 - October 19, 2012, 11:47 PM

    Billy - you brought up Hinduism - and I wondered after your belief/non-belief or perspective?


    I'm an atheist.

    I brought up the example of 'Lord Shiva'  purely to demonstrate the absurd stupidity of this aspect of Islamic belief by counterpointing it with an example that plainly demonstrates the ridiculousness of this mentality and theology.

    The idea that if X people are 'made aware' of Y deity and refuse to submit to it, they are deserving of eternal violent sadistic torture.

    This is absurd stupidity writ large, and it makes Muslims who espouse it appear simultaneously absurd, arrogant, crazy, bigoted, delusional and menacing.

    You can replace 'Lord Shiva' with the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' if you like - the point was to expose you to the grotesque nature of this theology.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #72 - October 19, 2012, 11:52 PM

    and there isn't one group of Muslims Vs the non-Muslims - that is an obviously mistaken impression. 


    The fact that you might rank non Muslims into categories of 'good non Muslims' and 'bad non Muslims' according to whatever nominal affiliation they have to any belief system that Islam oh-so-generously grants 'legitimacy' to or not as the case may be isn't an act of generosity or mercy or sophistication to be admired. Its just more arrogance and special pleading. The principle is the same.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #73 - October 19, 2012, 11:54 PM

    Yes - But

    In belief Vs non-belief - It is choice of one or the other . . . . rest more or less are sub categories of the rest.


    No you are falling for a false dichotomy there. There are many kinds of systems of thought, including monotheism, of which islam is but 1 type, (monotheism is arguably actually duotheism as god in these monotheistic religions can not exist without the devil/satan etc. who is apparently as powerful as god because god can not do anything to stop his rival). Then there are polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, agnosticism, deism, atheism etc., all with subgenres within them. To say that all of human thought and belief systems come down to "belief or non-belief" is to set up a false binary that ignores all the nuances that exist. Even within Islam, for example, sufism is closer to panentheism than wahabbism would be. It's quite naive and self-destructive to try to over simplify these things.

    I simply believe it to be true - I have my reasoning for it - but absolute definitive proof that would put anyone's mind at rest - I don't claim that. But it isn't admitting to any great truth though - Islam, Christianity . . . I think people already recognize that. 


    Well, isn't it actually shirk for Muslims to admit that they do not know that Islam is absolutely true? Regardless, your reasoning for believing in something is just that: your reasoning. As long as you can remain honest and know that that does not make a thing true in and of itself, I think you are being sincere. Problems arise when people confuse their own emotional and psychological need for particular beliefs to be universal, absolute truths.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #74 - October 19, 2012, 11:55 PM

    I'm an atheist.

    I brought up the example of 'Lord Shiva'  purely to demonstrate the absurd stupidity of this aspect of Islamic belief by counterpointing it with an example that plainly demonstrates the ridiculousness of this mentality and theology.

    The idea that if X people are 'made aware' of Y deity and refuse to submit to it, they are deserving of eternal violent sadistic torture.

    This is absurd stupidity writ large, and it makes Muslims who espouse it appear simultaneously absurd, arrogant, crazy, bigoted, delusional and menacing.

    You can replace 'Lord Shiva' with the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster' if you like - the point was to expose you to the grotesque nature of this theology.




    "I brought up the example of 'Lord Shiva'  purely to demonstrate the absurd stupidity of this aspect of Islamic belief by counterpointing it with an example that plainly demonstrates the ridiculousness of this mentality and theology. "

    But it didn't plainly demonstrate what you claim. And only you are claiming it did.

    "the point was to expose you to the grotesque nature of this theology."

    Adjectives and claims. I see nothing more. Just by calling others with such elaborate spiel "absurd, arrogant, crazy, bigoted, delusional and menacing" . . . doesn't make it so.





  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #75 - October 20, 2012, 12:00 AM

    Quote
    The fact that you might rank non Muslims into categories of 'good non Muslims' and 'bad non Muslims' according to whatever nominal affiliation they have to any belief system that Islam oh-so-generously grants 'legitimacy' to or not as the case may be isn't an act of generosity or mercy or sophistication to be admired. Its just more arrogance and special pleading. The principle is the same.



    "Its just more arrogance and special pleading."

    More baseless claims. Throwing in names for effect of fallacious arguments doesn't make it look any better.

    - - -

    "The fact that you might rank non Muslims into categories of 'good non Muslims' and 'bad non Muslims' according . . . "

    These are your words . . . don't project them on to me. And create arguments out of that. Which you conclude to whatever effect you like & choose.



  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #76 - October 20, 2012, 12:02 AM


    Its all plain AminRiaz, spelt out in big letters. A believer in Islam finds it hard to understand - this is cognitive dissonance.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #77 - October 20, 2012, 12:05 AM


    "The fact that you might rank non Muslims into categories of 'good non Muslims' and 'bad non Muslims' according . . . "

    These are your words . . . don't project them on to me. And create arguments out of that. Which you conclude to whatever effect you like & choose.






    No Amin, they are your words. You said it.

    Just as you denied saying that you said God could be lazy, and then I pointed out that you did.

    Its OK Amin - I don't expect you to change your belief or see things as they are, because the prime exceptionalism of Islam is your sacred belief. Thats the way things are for you.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #78 - October 20, 2012, 12:05 AM

    No you are falling for a false dichotomy there. There are many kinds of systems of thought, including monotheism, of which islam is but type, (monotheism is arguably actually duotheism as god in these monotheistic religions can not exist without the devil/satan etc. who is apparently as powerful as god because god can not do anything to stop his rival). Then there are polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, agnosticism, deism, atheism etc., all with subgenres within them. To say that all of human thought and belief systems come down to "belief or non-belief" is to set up a false binary that ignores all the nuances that exist. Even within Islam, for example, sufism is closer to panentheism than wahabbism would be. It's quite naive and self-destructive to try to over simplify these things.

    Well, isn't it actually shirk for Muslims to admit that they do not know that Islam is absolutely true? Regardless, your reasoning for believing in something is just that: your reasoning. As long as you can remain honest and know that that does not make a thing true in and of itself, I think you are being sincere. Problems arise when people confuse their own emotional and psychological need for particular beliefs to be universal, absolute truths.


    I think you have clearly misunderstood - if you go back to the originally what I said . . . I clearly say - the root of my beliefs is the simple choice is God Vs No God . .. from then Islam - Then Sufism.

    I am not recounting whole belief system - but my choice. Which you specifically asked after.

    - - -

    "duotheism as god in these monotheistic religions can not exist without the devil/satan etc. who is apparently as powerful as god because god can not do anything to stop his rival)"

    THis is not true - for Islam.

    - - -

    "Then there are polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, agnosticism, deism, atheism etc., all with subgenres within them."

    Yet the simple choice - the root - is God - Vs - No God . . .  rest are sub-divisions of that.
      
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #79 - October 20, 2012, 12:06 AM

    (monotheism is arguably actually duotheism as god in these monotheistic religions can not exist without the devil/satan etc. who is apparently as powerful as god because god can not do anything to stop his rival)


    Great point Afro

    A kind of dualism!

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #80 - October 20, 2012, 12:07 AM

    Its all plain AminRiaz, spelt out in big letters. A believer in Islam finds it hard to understand - this is cognitive dissonance.



    Which is yet another claim. And that is it. Mere claim are NOT persuasive at all. Come on, even The Jehovahs tend to do better!
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #81 - October 20, 2012, 12:09 AM

    "duotheism as god in these monotheistic religions can not exist without the devil/satan etc. who is apparently as powerful as god because god can not do anything to stop his rival)"

    THis is not true - for Islam.


    Yes it is. That is why God can not stop Iblis. Islam, like Christianity is based on Zoroastrianism, look it up. Either Allah has no power to stop Iblis (which means Allah is not omnipotent or all powerful) or Allah does not want to stop Iblis (which means Allah is as evil as Iblis). Which one is true, you think?


    "Then there are polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, agnosticism, deism, atheism etc., all with subgenres within them."

    Yet the simple choice - the root - is God - Vs - No God . . .  rest are sub-divisions of that.
      


    Nope. Choice is not that simple. Do you know what each of those terms means? polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, agnosticism, deism, atheism.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #82 - October 20, 2012, 12:10 AM

    Quote
    No Amin, they are your words. You said it.

    Just as you denied saying that you said God could be lazy, and then I pointed out that you did.

    Its OK Amin - I don't expect you to change your belief or see things as they are, because the prime exceptionalism of Islam is your sacred belief. Thats the way things are for you.



    I NEVER said - God could be lazy . . . . . but I did say "bored" - and I denied asserting it. Which I proved - you had no way of knowing. As they were my words - and the extend was just a statement. It was clear in its meaning and extent. But not the "belief" or strength behind it.

    - - -

    If this fresh claim are my words . . . which one? Do point them out.  
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #83 - October 20, 2012, 12:13 AM

    Great point Afro

    A kind of dualism!



    Yep! It's built right into Christianity and Islam and they are the first to deny it, although they never can explain why their idea of an omnipotent god is impotent when it comes to his arch-rival.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #84 - October 20, 2012, 12:14 AM

    Quote
    Its OK Amin - I don't expect you to change your belief or see things as they are, because the prime exceptionalism of Islam is your sacred belief. Thats the way things are for you.


    Bad argument - many Muslims DO change their mind. It could simply be - that you are not able to put forward a good argument - and that is what all evidence points too.

    As you make many statements . . . but just because they are laced with pert adjectives - why do you think they would give credence to you words? Wouldn't you be able to work out - that such demonizing would put people off? And distract from your argument?
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #85 - October 20, 2012, 12:15 AM

    Amin, this discussion consists of you saying things, which I respond to, and then you deny saying the things you say, or reply by saying it ain't so, it ain't so, it just ain't so, without substantively saying why. I kind of think the cul-de-sac of engagement with a true believer has been reached. Its fruitful discussing these things and I know you won't change your mind over them off a discussion in one night.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #86 - October 20, 2012, 12:18 AM

    Yep! It's built right into Christianity and Islam and they are the first to deny it, although they never can explain why their idea of an omnipotent god is impotent when it comes to his arch-rival.


    I never looked at it like that before, but its staring us in the face!

    Almost like a form of Manichaeism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #87 - October 20, 2012, 12:19 AM

    Bad argument - many Muslims DO change their mind. It could simply be - that you are not able to put forward a good argument - and that is what all evidence points too.


    It is a good, sound and accurate argument - its just not what you want to hear. That's OK.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #88 - October 20, 2012, 12:20 AM

    Quote
    Yes it is. That is why God can not stop Iblis. Islam, like Christianity is based on Zoroastrianism, look it up. Either Allah has no power to stop Iblis (which means Allah is not omnipotent or all powerful) or Allah does not want to stop Iblis (which means Allah is as evil as Iblis). Which one is true, you think?


    Look what up? I know this is not the case from Islam's point of view. As Iblis is a created being.

    "Allah does not want to stop Iblis (which means Allah is as evil as Iblis). Which one is true, you think?"

    This is not a good argument to forward. Why would this automatically mean Allah is as evil as Iblis? According Islam - he is the test. The whole point - he isn't stopped.

    - - -

    Quote
    Nope. Choice is not that simple. Do you know what each of those terms means? polytheism, pantheism, panentheism, agnosticism, deism, atheism.


    In my case it is - and it is the root. Yes - I know what all the terms mean.  
  • polytheism / monotheism
     Reply #89 - October 20, 2012, 12:23 AM

    Quote
    It is a good, sound and accurate argument - its just not what you want to hear. That's OK.


    If it is a good argument - then you can illustrate why? Something, Which you repeatedly fail to do. Then cover up with. . . .

    "its just not what you want to hear. That's OK."

    But as far as merit goes . . . these sentences do not give any more credence.
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