Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
Yesterday at 01:25 PM

News From Syria
December 10, 2024, 09:35 AM

New Britain
December 08, 2024, 10:30 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
December 07, 2024, 09:26 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
December 06, 2024, 01:27 PM

Ashes to beads: South Kor...
December 03, 2024, 09:44 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 30, 2024, 08:53 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Racism in Victoria's Secret?

 (Read 15059 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #30 - November 11, 2012, 08:04 PM

    Yeah, good one. In fact why don't we just ban Halloween. Those kids have no right to pretend to be something they are not!


    But there are many costumes one can wear without imposing on others cultures. There is no need to ban Halloween just spreading awareness should do.

    Aren't words like 'stop being so sensitive' or 'it's only a costume, relax' just ways to undermine and ignore the emotions felt by the person who disagrees or is offended? The racism and discrimination experienced by 'minority' groups is very real and stereotyping their cultures and mocking them is offensive - the histories of the groups play a part in that. Considering all that, the message I get from these costumes is that 'it's OK to dress up as a Native American but it's not OK to be one'.

    I have a pair of earrings like that girl ..does it imply that i support western colonization and  black slavery? cool2

    Tell me please, does this racial stereotyping work in other way : a japanese woman wants to dress like a french maid...Is that japanese woman guilty of sexually stereotyping French women?


    I wouldn't say it implies you support colonialism and slavery but wearing the decapitated heads of black women as though they're yours to own, as your property, would imply that you have been careless with your choice of earrings. And it isn't just some artistic plastic bits but it's symbolic of viewing the black body as a commodity. A body which does not belong to them, but to others for their use. It's extremely insensitive and I grant that not everyone will make that connection, but it's a very real one. You may be interested to read about Saartjie Baartman and her life as a slave woman, pretty depressing by the way; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Baartman and http://www.saartjiebaartmancentre.org.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=66

    I'm not familiar with the histories of french maids and do not know how oppressed they've been as a group, but I'd struggle supporting the over-sexualisation of women who work as nurses/maids etc. But these are choices for individuals who want to dress up to make. The least we can do is spark up a debate so that people end up questioning their actions rather than perpetuating cultural stereotypes...


     
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #31 - November 11, 2012, 08:05 PM

    Hola Kenan Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #32 - November 11, 2012, 08:06 PM

    Hey, I'm an equal opportunity pisser. If it's three o'clock in the mroning and I'm still half asleep, I'll sometimes piss sitting down just so I don't have to keep myself erect ( grin12 ) and don't have to aim.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #33 - November 11, 2012, 08:07 PM

    Few more posters I found on my hdd:
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #34 - November 11, 2012, 08:15 PM

    Hola Kenan Afro

    Hey billy, it's nice to see you again.

    Hey, I'm an equal opportunity pisser. If it's three o'clock in the mroning and I'm still half asleep, I'll sometimes piss sitting down just so I don't have to keep myself erect ( grin12 ) and don't have to aim.

    I am afraid that's not good enough.

    You see, pissing is political: 

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #35 - November 11, 2012, 08:17 PM

    Oh FFS. Cheesy Some people seriously need to get their heads out of their arses.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #36 - November 11, 2012, 08:50 PM

    ^
    You cis privilege is showing.

    ... the whole 'offence' industry is a construction of Western cultural imperialism. (Joking, kinda.)

    Spot on. Identity politics is cancer, no true Marxist would violate her/his revolutionary vigour with such false blasphemy.
    (Howaito piggu go homu!)
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #37 - November 11, 2012, 08:53 PM

    This is what I call "identity politics gone mad".

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #38 - November 11, 2012, 09:07 PM

    Considering all that, the message I get from these costumes is that 'it's OK to dress up as a Native American but it's not OK to be one'.

    Where on earth did you get that from?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #39 - November 11, 2012, 09:43 PM

    Where on earth did you get that from?


    I say that because of the racism Native Americans experience today. Dressing up as a Native American for a day is all dandy, but the lived experiences of Native Americans is bound to be very different because of the ways in which they're discriminated against.

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #40 - November 11, 2012, 10:10 PM

    You're sidetracking. Your original claim was this:

    ...the message I get from these costumes is that 'it's OK to dress up as a Native American but it's not OK to be one'.


    I wasn't asking what message you'd get from racists in the US. I was asking why you thought this particular costume indicated that it was not ok to be Amerindian. It doesn't have that implication to my mind. The thought that it somehow is not ok to be Amerindian had never occurred to me. All I saw was Karlie Kloss in a somewhat silly costume.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #41 - November 11, 2012, 10:12 PM

    I'm having trouble believing some of the posts in this thread.  If any woman, ever, felt oppressed by men standing to take a piss then she belongs in an insane asylum.

    Would it work the other way around do you think?  Men should feel oppressed by not having periods, so until men can bleed for three days without dying women should stop menstruating.  

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #42 - November 11, 2012, 10:26 PM

    Or how about women giving birth? I mean men simply can't do that, and it might make some of them feel inadequate. Does this mean wonmen should stop having kids?

    *yeah I know some of them should but....*

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #43 - November 11, 2012, 10:28 PM

    Women can wear bras and men can't.  Why haven't you risen up against this tyranny, brothers?   finmad

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #44 - November 11, 2012, 10:31 PM

    Women can wear bras and men can't. 


    Ah, you'd be wrong there, Cheetah.

  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #45 - November 11, 2012, 10:32 PM

    Where on earth did you get that from?

    Interpretation of any fact is biased by preconceived ideas people hold.

    In this case interpretation offered by cognisance is pretty standard and widely accepted in certain circles. I have heard the same argument at least a million times before.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #46 - November 11, 2012, 10:34 PM

    Ah, you'd be wrong there, Cheetah.

    (Clicky for piccy!)


     mysmilie_977

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #47 - November 11, 2012, 10:38 PM

    Thing is, I expect the Victoria's Secret parades to have tacky and idiotic things in them (not directly referring to the models per se) because they always do. It's pretty much what they're all about.

    I also get that some Amerindians are going to be pissed about this particular parade. That's their prerogative, and they're free to give VS a bollocking about it (some already have). It still doesn't follow that the parade or the costume or the model were being racist as such.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #48 - November 11, 2012, 10:42 PM

    You're sidetracking. Your original claim was this:

    I wasn't asking what message you'd get from racists in the US. I was asking why you thought this particular costume indicated that it was not ok to be Amerindian. It doesn't have that implication to my mind. The thought that it somehow is not ok to be Amerindian had never occurred to me. All I saw was Karlie Kloss in a somewhat silly costume.


    I was not sidetracking, I was elaborating my original point with an explanation as to why I think that is...

    "...the message I get from these costumes is that 'it's OK to dress up as a Native American but it's not OK to be one'....I say that this because of the racism Native Americans experience today. Dressing up as a Native American for a day is all dandy, but the lived experiences of Native Americans is bound to be very different because of the ways in which they're discriminated against"

    Also, the war bonnet is part of that 'silly costume'.

    Cultural appropriation is a much wider issue than this Victoria Secret example.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #49 - November 11, 2012, 10:45 PM

    What I mean is that how many people do you really think saw that costume and thought "Oh hey, this must mean it's not ok to be Amerindian"? My guess, hardly any.

    And of course the faux war bonnet is part of the costume. It's arguably the main feature. What's your point there?

    Seriously, the message I got is "Karlie Kloss looks bloody silly in that shot". Well, that and "that girl needs feeding".

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #50 - November 11, 2012, 10:48 PM

    Next question: what happens if an Amerindian wears a cowboy hat? Should rednecks get offended by the appropriation of part of their culture?

    ETA: Oh and don't forget my question about VS using angel outfits in their parades. Are you going to be equally up in arms on behalf of religious people who believe in angels? I'm not taking the piss here. It's a valid question.

    Note that I'm not disputing that the Indian headdress costume was tasteless or tacky or insensitive or several other things. I just think the claim that it must, automatically, be racist is a pretty severe claim that doesn't really hold up.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #51 - November 11, 2012, 11:49 PM

    Hey billy, it's nice to see you again.
    I am afraid that's not good enough.

    You see, pissing is political: 




    This must be a pisstake (excuse the pun) Grin right?


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #52 - November 12, 2012, 07:15 PM

    This must be a pisstake (excuse the pun) Grin right?

    As far as I can tell it's legit. There was a campaign in Sweden regarding the issue of urinals (supposedly for hygienic reasons) and some radfems shared in the debate by basically claiming that
    pisses while standing up = supports rape culture.

    http://blog.lib.umn.edu/puot0002/3004/2010/04/this-is-a-feminist-issue-becausepeeing-standing-up.html

    Have you ever heard of SCUM manifesto? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto


    Educational video courtesy of a Swedish feminist group:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArX1hkPUMCQ



  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #53 - November 12, 2012, 09:29 PM

    Next question: what happens if an Amerindian wears a cowboy hat? Should rednecks get offended by the appropriation of part of their culture?

    ETA: Oh and don't forget my question about VS using angel outfits in their parades. Are you going to be equally up in arms on behalf of religious people who believe in angels? I'm not taking the piss here. It's a valid question.

    Note that I'm not disputing that the Indian headdress costume was tasteless or tacky or insensitive or several other things. I just think the claim that it must, automatically, be racist is a pretty severe claim that doesn't really hold up.


    Not one of those people who are  critical of the show  mentioned feelings of millions of believers who might get hurt at seeing scantily clad girls being presented as angels. Kiss

    Isn't it funny how cats can understand people without ever reading a single psychology book?
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #54 - November 12, 2012, 09:33 PM

    Yes I know they didn't. That's my point.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #55 - November 12, 2012, 09:42 PM

    I don't see how you can possibly make an argument that peeing while standing is sexist.

    I think it's gross, but sexist? wacko

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #56 - November 12, 2012, 09:44 PM

    What's gross about it?  Huh?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #57 - November 12, 2012, 10:46 PM

    Besides the splashing and dribbling, I just think it's gross to stand there spraying it through the air instead of sitting. Unless it's really dirty, then I guess I can understand that, but otherwise idk why you wouldn't sit.

    Not a big deal though, as long as you clean up after yourself.


    Urinals, on the other hand, I dont get. No stall? No vestibule? No door? How the hell can you use that with other people there??? I can barely go when there anyone in the room and I'm in a closed stall. Grin

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #58 - November 12, 2012, 10:49 PM

    @osmanthus

    Quote
    What I mean is that how many people do you really think saw that costume and thought "Oh hey, this must mean it's not ok to be Amerindian"? My guess, hardly any.


    The main point of that observation was that lived experiences of marginalized groups are completely different to the experiences of those people who choose to embellish cultural attire for a day. Dressing up for a day in another’s cultural dress does not result in any racial attacks or discrimination which is something those marginalized, underrepresented groups have to deal with throughout their lives.

    Just because this is the way I interpret this situation does not mean everyone will. I understand that not everyone will agree with my points, or see things in the same way, and that is fine. It isn’t a numbers game – so it doesn’t make a difference if only one person interprets it this way, or one hundred.

    Quote
    And of course the faux war bonnet is part of the costume. It's arguably the main feature. What's your point there?

    Seriously, the message I got is "Karlie Kloss looks bloody silly in that shot". Well, that and "that girl needs feeding".


    The reason I picked up on that was because you described it as a ‘silly costume’ which involves the war bonnet. You’ve reduced a culturally significant item to a ‘costume’ and this is why this is seen as an issue.  When does the war bonnet stop being a ‘silly costume’ and when does it start being a symbol of bravery? When is native dress a ‘costume’? When a non-native wears it or when anyone wears it regardless of their heritage? 

    Quote
    Next question: what happens if an Amerindian wears a cowboy hat? Should rednecks get offended by the appropriation of part of their culture?


    Does the latter situation negate the racism and offence felt by some Native Americans when their dress is worn by non-Natives as a costume? I doubt it.

    Have cowboys experienced genocide? Have they been displaced from their home land? Do they experience racism and discrimination? Are they raped, murdered and abused by non-cowboys for being cowboys? Have cowboys been kept as slaves?

    Quote
    ETA: Oh and don't forget my question about VS using angel outfits in their parades. Are you going to be equally up in arms on behalf of religious people who believe in angels? I'm not taking the piss here. It's a valid question.


    These comparisons fail because we assume that cowboy dress, angel costumes and Native American clothing have equal weighting. Because, objecting to one dress does not mean we should object to them all. We need to be more aware of the histories to make sure that we do not offend someone with our ignorance – and we cannot ignore the past to justify something today because we may feel it’s ‘not a big deal’ or irrelevant because we don’t see how it’s offensive – or we’ve been privileged enough to not experience inequalities based on our cultural differences etc.

    Quote
    Note that I'm not disputing that the Indian headdress costume was tasteless or tacky or insensitive or several other things. I just think the claim that it must, automatically, be racist is a pretty severe claim that doesn't really hold up.

     

    It’s racism based on ignorance. Just because something is racist does not mean it is intentional, and sometimes we can even be racist without knowing the prejudices we hold because they’ve been socialised into us. There are many things we have to unlearn because of the systems of institutionalised racism, sexism, classism etc we live within.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #59 - November 12, 2012, 10:52 PM

    Besides the splashing and dribbling, I just think it's gross to stand there spraying it through the air instead of sitting. Unless it's really dirty, then I guess I can understand that, but otherwise idk why you wouldn't sit.

    Not a big deal though, as long as you clean up after yourself.


    Urinals, on the other hand, I dont get. No stall? No vestibule? No door? How the hell can you use that with other people there??? I can barely go when there anyone in the room and I'm in a closed stall. Grin

    Oh, right. So exactly how do you manage to not spray yours through the air? Do you submerge your genitals in the bowl before letting go? grin12

    There should be no need to clean up. Urinating standing up =/= pissing all over the place and is =/= to pissing on the seat. Sheesh.  Roll Eyes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »