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Theme Changer

 Topic: Racism in Victoria's Secret?

 (Read 14952 times)
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  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #90 - November 16, 2012, 01:03 AM

    And seriously I don't think people have to be so insulting or mock me in their replies. Creating dialogue and exchanging ideas is how I learn, so it's really disheartening when people think it's ok to be rude and belittle differing opinions.


    Yeah it's pretty off-putting. I generally try to avoid arguments these days where there's an audience. Private conversations are much more productive.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #91 - November 16, 2012, 01:11 AM

    Take Prince's advice. It's good advice. Consider it next time you feel like coming into a thread about a combustible subject, injecting another combustible subject into the mix, and then telling people what their rights are.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #92 - November 16, 2012, 01:14 AM

    And seriously I don't think people have to be so insulting or mock me in their replies. Creating dialogue and exchanging ideas is how I learn, so it's really disheartening when people think it's ok to be rude and belittle differing opinions.

     Ok, but the thing is you've been making claims of racism without appearing to provide any support for your claim. Consequently, some of us have reached the point where we can't take you seriously.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #93 - November 16, 2012, 01:19 AM

    Also, not even my own mother tells me what not to wear.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #94 - November 16, 2012, 01:27 AM

    Cognisance: check out this site. It's a real, live cowboys and Indians store. Yee_ha!.

    http://www.indianvillagemall.com/

    A lot of their stuff is hand made by real, live Indians. That's real, live Indians who are obviously fine with selling the stuff to any old whiteass who has the cash. They even sell, wait for it, a variety of feather headdresses. Now call me an idiot, but I strongly suspect those headdresses are not sold with a statement that says you can never wear one if you buy it.

    So, if these guys are happy to sell them, why would it be so wrong for Kloss to wear something like this? More specifically, why on earth would it be racist?

    [aside]

    Incidentally, they have a rather funny typo on that page.  grin12

    [/aside]

    Quote
    Different articles from various scared animals were used in making them............


    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #95 - November 16, 2012, 01:36 AM

    It's racist because it's a white chick wearing something that white chicks are not supposed to wear. Or something.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #96 - November 16, 2012, 01:44 AM

    That shop looks awesome btw. I could easily spend a lot of money in there.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #97 - November 16, 2012, 01:47 AM

    Yeah they have some cool stuff. dance

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #98 - November 16, 2012, 01:56 AM

    These look badass:





    Some more on his website: http://kirbysattler.sattlerartprint.com/index.html

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #99 - November 18, 2012, 02:39 PM

    I don’t think it works in the same way considering white people do not have a history of cultural suppression.

    Lol what?
    Are you actually seriously claiming that 'white people' have no history of cultural suppression?
    Are you from US by any chance?

    And seriously I don't think people have to be so insulting or mock me in their replies. Creating dialogue and exchanging ideas is how I learn, so it's really disheartening when people think it's ok to be rude and belittle differing opinions.

    First of all - your attitude was not that of somebody who is inquisitive and is looking to challenge their own preconceptions by exchanging ideas with others but rather the attitude of somebody who came to this thread to lecture others.
    That's why you got the response that you did.

    Secondly your ideas are not worthy of respect per se, that is something you have to earn first.
    Not engaging others with absolutist and totalitarian narrative and trying to constructively exchange ideas with others is a great way of gaining such respect.
     
  • Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #100 - April 16, 2016, 03:58 PM

    Kenan Malik on cultural appropriation:
    Quote
    Another week, another controversy about "cultural appropriation". The latest has been the furore over Justin Bieber's dreadlocks. The Bieber furore followed similar controversies over Beyonce's Bollywood outfit, Kylie Jenner's cornrows, Canadians practising yoga, English students wearing sombreros and American students donning Native American Halloween costumes.

    Many of these controversies may seem as laughable as Bieber's locks. What they reveal, however, is how degraded have become contemporary campaigns for social justice.

    Cultural appropriation is, in the words of Susan Scafidi, professor of law at Fordham University, and author of Who Owns Culture? Appropriation and Authenticity in American Law, "Taking intellectual property, traditional knowledge, cultural expressions, or artifacts from someone else's culture without permission". This can include the "unauthorised use of another culture's dance, dress, music, language, folklore, cuisine, traditional medicine, religious symbols, etc."

    But what is it for knowledge or an object to "belong" to a culture? And who gives permission for someone from another culture to use such knowledge or forms?

    The idea that the world could be divided into distinct cultures, and that every culture belonged to a particular people, has its roots in late 18th-century Europe.

    The Romantic movement, which developed in part in opposition to the rationalism of the Enlightenment, celebrated cultural differences and insisted on the importance of "authentic" ways of being.

    For Johann Gottfried Herder, the German philosopher who best articulated the Romantic notion of culture, what made each people - or "volk" - unique was its particular language, history and modes of living. The unique nature of each volk was expressed through its "volksgeist" - the unchanging spirit of a people refined through history.

    Herder was no reactionary - he was an important champion of equality - but his ideas about culture were adopted by reactionary thinkers. Those ideas became central to racial thinking - the notion of the volksgeist was transformed into the concept of racial make-up - and fuelled the belief that non-Western societies were "backward" because of their "backward" cultures.

    Radicals challenging racism and colonialism rejected the Romantic view of culture, adopting instead a universalist perspective. From the struggle against slavery to the anti-colonial movements, the aim not to protect one's own special culture but to create a more universal culture in which all could participate on equal terms.

    In recent decades, however, the universalist viewpoint has eroded, largely as many of the social movements that embodied that viewpoint have disintegrated. The social space vacated by that disintegration became filled by identity politics.

    As the broader struggles for social transformation have faded, people have tended to retreat into their particular faiths or cultures, and to embrace more parochial forms of identity. In this process, the old cultural arguments of the racists have returned, but now rebranded as "antiracist".

    But how does creating gated cultures, and preventing others from trespassing upon one's culture without permission, challenge racism or promote social justice?

    Campaigners against cultural appropriation argue that when "privileged" cultures adopt the styles of "less privileged" ones they help create stereotypes of what such cultures are like, and assert racial power.

    "By dressing up as a fake Indian", one Native American told white students, "you are asserting your power over us, and continuing to oppress us."

    The trouble is that in making the case against cultural appropriation, campaigners equally perpetuate stereotypes.

    After all, to suggest that it is "authentic" for blacks to wear locks, or for Native Americans to wear a headdress, but not for whites to do so, is itself to stereotype those cultures.

    Cultures do not, and cannot, work through notions of "ownership". The history of culture is the history of cultural appropriation - of cultures borrowing, stealing, changing, transforming.

    Nor does preventing whites from wearing locks or practising yoga challenge racism in any meaningful way.

    What the campaigns against cultural appropriation reveal is the disintegration of the meaning of "anti-racism". Once it meant to struggle for equal treatment for all.

    Now it means defining the correct etiquette for a plural society. The campaign against cultural appropriation is about policing manners rather than transforming society.

    This takes us to the second question: who does the policing? Who gives permission for people of other cultures to use particular cultural forms? Who acts as the gatekeepers to gated cultures?

    Most black people could probably not care less what Justin Beiber does to his hair. Inevitably, the gatekeepers are those who are outraged by Bieber's locks.

    The very fact of being outraged makes one the arbiter of what is outrageous. The gatekeepers, in other words, define themselves, because they are ones who want to put up the gates.

    The debates around Justin Bieber's hair or Beyonce's Bollywood outfit are relatively trivial. But, in other contexts, the creation of gatekeepers has proved highly problematic.

    In many European nations, minority groups have come to be seen as distinct communities, each with their own interests, needs and desires, and each with certain so-called "community leaders" acting as their representatives.

    Such leaders are frequently religious, often conservative, and rarely representative of their communities. But they wield great power as mediators between their communities and wider society. In effect, they act as gatekeepers to those communities.

    Their role as gatekeepers is particularly problematic when it comes to policing not fashion styles or cuisine but ideas. Community leaders often help define what is acceptable to say about particular communities, and what is "offensive".

    And notions of "offence" are often used to police not just what outsiders may say about a particular community, but to shut down debate within those communities - think of the fatwa against Salman Rushdie or the shutting down by Sikh activists of Sikh playwright Gurpreet Kaur Bhatti's play Behzti, which explored the role of women within Sikh communities.

    The campaign against cultural appropriation is, in other words, part of the broader attempt to police communities and cultures. Those who most suffer from such policing are minority communities themselves, and in particular progressive voices within those communities.

    The real fight against injustice begins with ridding ourselves of our self-appointed gatekeepers.

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2016/04/bane-cultural-appropriation-160414080237198.html
  • Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #101 - April 16, 2016, 08:18 PM

    Cultural appropriation and cultural sharing are two different things. Drawing a dichotomy of cultural appropriation vs. cultural isolationism is a strawman.
  • Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #102 - September 15, 2016, 11:00 AM

    Kenan Malik again on cultural appropriation

    Who is appropriating what?
    Quote
    Last week the novelist Lionel Shriver gave the keynote address at the Brisbane Writers Festival. It did not go well. She addressed the question of ‘Fiction and identity politics’ (apparently the organizers had originally asked her to talk about ‘community and belonging’, but she had submitted to them a different topic), providing a robust critique of identity politics and of the idea of ‘cultural appropriation’...

  • Racism in Victoria's Secret?
     Reply #103 - September 30, 2016, 10:41 AM

    Sorry I did not want to bother reading through all the pages of this thread.

    I do not shop at Victoria Secret because they do not carry any size bigger for panties than large in their stores.  When I asked for x-large panties they tell me that I can order them online but they do not have them in the stores.  So I tell them that I am shopping elsewhere for my bras and other purchases too.  The other lingerie store in the mall sells x-large so everytime I buy anything there I walk into VS with the bag and tell them how much I spent at the other store and why I do not shop at VS.  So VS thinks that larger size women are not good enough to be seen in their stores?  I won't shop there and I tell my friends that too.

    Another store that does this is lululemon.  My neices are tall so they wear a larger size but I would not say they are fat or overweight at all.  LUlu does not put their size out on the racks.  If they ask they will pull out a box with some really ugly old stock in it.  So we do not shop there at all and tell all out friends. 

    The unreligion, only one calorie
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