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 Topic: Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)

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  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #60 - December 23, 2012, 04:30 AM
    Quote from: yougonasorry on December 23, 2012, 04:20 AM
    Multiple times it has been referred in the quran that Muhammed is the last messenger,.  the prophet etc.. it is clear that he is meant by the messenger. No question about it. What other messenger is there?

    could you please put out the verses from Quran on that yougonasorry .. and the question was also
    Quote
    but how many messengers are there in Quran yougonasorry?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #61 - December 23, 2012, 04:33 AM
    Quote from: yougonasorry on December 23, 2012, 04:30 AM
    To alex:

    According to most islamic scholars the quran is supposed to be the ultiamte guide for the muslims, as it is allegedly the word of god, hence it says countless times the prophet muhammed to be the last prophet...etc heed his warnings..etc all kinds of things to that effects, alex you are blatantly ignoring all that, you even didn't understand the simple point that Islam consists of TWO sources, the quran and the sunnahs (hadith). That's where the muslims get their teachings from.

    a little example here:

    4:79
    What comes to you of good is from Allah , but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself. And We have sent you, [O Muhammad], to the people as a messenger, and sufficient is Allah as Witness.
    ..............................

     and you must realize the things inserted in brackets in Quran are NOT originally there but they are inserted by  translators..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #62 - December 23, 2012, 04:34 AM
    come on yeez, we know who the messenger, don't be pagal, mera dil
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #63 - December 23, 2012, 04:39 AM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on December 23, 2012, 04:34 AM
    come on yeez, we know who the messenger, don't be pagal, mera dil

    Alif  finmad finmad

    Quote
    " Ta Ha.
    Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad.
    Alif Lam Ra
    Alif, Lam, Mim, Ra.
    faq'qaf
    boom.. doom.. dum..dum.
    Bow..boww
    Mhew..mhew.
    Khaboom  "


    yes "Muhammad was a messenger.. but who was that  "Muhammad of Quran?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #64 - December 23, 2012, 04:40 AM
    sure here is a verse yeezevee

    Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things 33:40



    (Modified and added this) I don't know for you guys but the more I read about Islam the more Muhammed seems to be referred as to be the last messenger, nearly all islamic scholars agree on that matter (as i remember)
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #65 - December 23, 2012, 04:45 AM
    So according to you yeezevee, despite mohammed being the one who compiled the quran (or at least received the revelations from the angel gabriel) who else can logically be this 'messenger' ?
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #66 - December 23, 2012, 04:45 AM
    Quote from: yougonasorry on December 23, 2012, 04:40 AM
    sure here is a verse yeezevee

    Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things 33:40

    Only one verse? you said many many times..

    well that 33:40  verse was NOT there in original Quran . Rascals added at later times  finmad finmad
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #67 - December 23, 2012, 04:45 AM
    sorry, you don't understand two very simple facts:

    1. for all the importance that ahadith are in mainstream islaam today, it's quite strange that the first source (al-qur'aan) doesn't mention the second source (ahadith, which it naturally couldn't without knowledge of the future when the second source would be manufactured). Notice I didn't use the word "created" leaving that hobby for subhanahu wa ta'ala.

    2. obeying a prophet does not equal following his tradition as narrated by very nice and trustworthy people.

    Simple really, what confuses you? By the way, God had to send the Koran because it is perfect and protected unlike OTHER text that can be changed by humans. Anyway, I wont argue about what is and what is not al-islaam, but the fact that God says nothing about ahadith being part of the best deen is undeniable.
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #68 - December 23, 2012, 04:46 AM
    Quote from: yougonasorry on December 23, 2012, 04:45 AM
    So according to you yeezevee, despite mohammed being the one who compiled the quran (or at least received the revelations from the angel gabriel) who else can logically be this 'messenger' ?

    Muhammad of Quran DID NOT compile  the quran
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #69 - December 23, 2012, 04:51 AM
    ok you are simply rejecting my statements which are based on the quran and what most muslim scholars say, give me your take then. WHO is that last messenger if not Muhammed. We know that Muhammed received directly revelations from angel gabriel which in turn came to be in the quran, hence who else would write it down. yes yes muhammed was an illiterate so how could he...etc well he somehow did.

    Tell me your take on this yeezevee
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #70 - December 23, 2012, 04:54 AM
    to alex:
    did you just say the quran is perfect, contains no error,..etc oh boy there's quite a lot you don't know yet, i will have to comprehensively debunk your 'holy' quran to show you that it DOES contain numerous human errors, discrepancies, contradictions, etc. There is absolutely nothing divine about it. Men wrote the quran. What makes you think, aha the quran is from god ?
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #71 - December 23, 2012, 04:56 AM
    going to bed now, ill reply another time lads
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #72 - December 23, 2012, 04:57 AM
    Quote from: yougonasorry on December 23, 2012, 04:51 AM
    ok you are simply rejecting my statements which are based on the quran and what most muslim scholars say, give me your take then. WHO is that last messenger if not Muhammed.

    according to original Quranic writers .. it was Jesus that was made to be the last messenger..

    Quote
    We know that Muhammed received directly revelations from angel gabriel which in turn came to be in the quran, hence who else would write it down. yes yes muhammed was an illiterate so how could he...etc well he somehow did.

    Tell me your take on this yeezevee

    nope whole thing is wrong ,, who says muhammed was an illiterate??  what is the meaning   of illiterate?  for. e.g.  I know nothing about  neural network and string theory .. So I am an illiterate in that.. you know nothing about Quantum mechanics so you are illiterate in it..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #73 - December 23, 2012, 05:02 AM
    You are seriously missing my point, sorry. If you want to discuss what are the sources of true Islam, you have to assume that something is from God. That something is the Koran. It is infallible because it says so, if you reject that then there is no true Islam!!! The fact that it's all bullshit and muhammad was a lunatic or a con man is besides the point. Irrelevant for the purpose of establishing sources of true Islam. You can not say as you did that Ahmadiyya is bullshit islam because it's not mainstream and in another post claim that the Koran is bullshit. It's not logical. The 20 years of medrese really messed up your mind I see.

    To yeez: find your own ex-salafis to argue with, I found sorry first!!! Otherwise I will devour you, then regurgitate you and then devour you for the SECOND time!!!
    "That it is indeed the speech of an illustrious messenger" (The Koran 69:40)
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #74 - December 23, 2012, 05:16 AM
    Quote from: Alex Lam Meem on December 23, 2012, 05:02 AM
    ......................................................

    To yeez: find your own ex-salafis to argue with, I found sorry first!!! Otherwise I will devour you, then regurgitate you and then devour you for the SECOND time!!!

      you found what? you found sorry?    

    Alex .. Oops Alif ..  Alif  stop writing like yeezee.. you are missing  the words, you sound like "Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad." .lol..

    any ways strictly speaking in the present Quran the word "Muhammad" was used 4 times in verses  3:144, 33:40, 47:2 and  48:29  and also   in   61:6  the word "Ahmad" was used ..  so let us read those verses

    Quote
     003.144 : And Muhammad is no more than a messenger;  the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

     033.040: Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

     047.002: And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.

     048.029: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.

    Quote
    061.006R: And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me his name being Ahmad ], but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.


    well that is what we have . how do we understand those verses?  allah doll knows the bset..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #75 - December 27, 2012, 05:54 PM
    I'm back!

    The Ahmadiyya reject the Ahadith and only accept the Qur'an?
    Who said?

    It is interesting in this forum of Ex-Muslims to find certain people carrying the same prejudices against Islam Ahmadiyya as they did when they were Muslim.

    I'm not going to go into theological debate. Facts are facts, and people spreading misinformation should correct themselves. The person claiming Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) to be a drunkard has admitted they did so without any proof. The person claiming the Ahmadiyya reject all ahadith but only focus on the Qur'an should provide proof here too.
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #76 - December 27, 2012, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 27, 2012, 05:54 PM
    I'm back!

    Hello Shah  .. I am glad to see you back

    Quote
    The Ahmadiyya reject the Ahadith and only accept the Qur'an?
    Who said?

     and who said Ahmadiyya reject the Ahadith ?  well if some  one says that,  correct them.,
    Quote
    It is interesting in this forum of Ex-Muslims to find certain people carrying the same prejudices against Islam Ahmadiyya as they did when they were Muslim.

    That I disagree with you., you can not call that as prejudices against Islam Ahmadiyya, at  the best you can say, they didn't know.. they don't  read and they did not understand Islam Ahmadiyya., Thats all you can say KShah_. I am sorry I agree to disagree with you.

    Quote
    I'm not going to go into theological debate. Facts are facts, and people spreading misinformation should correct themselves. The person claiming Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) to be a drunkard has admitted they did so without any proof. The person claiming the Ahmadiyya reject all ahadith but only focus on the Qur'an should provide proof here too.

    Again you are wrong in saying that.  If they can not correct themselves then you should be able to correct people and their wrong perceptions.  you have full freedom to do that and I fully support your freedom..

    Don't get me wrong there., I and others will reserve the rights to criticize any faith including Ahmadiyya Islam.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #77 - December 27, 2012, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 27, 2012, 05:54 PM
    I'm back!

    The Ahmadiyya reject the Ahadith and only accept the Qur'an?
    Who said?

    It is interesting in this forum of Ex-Muslims to find certain people carrying the same prejudices against Islam Ahmadiyya as they did when they were Muslim.

    I'm not going to go into theological debate. Facts are facts, and people spreading misinformation should correct themselves. The person claiming Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as) to be a drunkard has admitted they did so without any proof. The person claiming the Ahmadiyya reject all ahadith but only focus on the Qur'an should provide proof here too.


    Ok if you don't want to talk theology I want to ask you a political question.


    Taking into account  the violent persecution of the ahmadis in many islamic countries such as Pakistan would you be in support of secular government and be against the implementation of sharia law?  

    Why or why not?

    If yes would the ahmadi community in Britain be interested in working the council of ex muslims Britain to lobby the government to support secularism.

    This would include banning sharia courts operating in Britain.

    If you support sharia law can you list the reasons for doing so.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #78 - December 27, 2012, 06:55 PM
    yeezevee,

    In my experience most prejudices come from ignorance. It is not unfair to expect people to have some substance to their posts. The 'think before you speak' approach should not be compromised on, especially in a place like this.
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #79 - December 27, 2012, 07:06 PM
    Shah - shouldn't you be explaining this to the Sunnis who want to kill you (and us)

    We're not the ones dehumanising and demonising and persecuting your community
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #80 - December 27, 2012, 07:14 PM
    ^

    That links back to the question of secularism. Some ahmadis support sharia law and some don't.

    So my question is KShah_KE where do you stand on sharia law and secularism ?

    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on December 27, 2012, 06:12 PM
    Taking into account  the violent persecution of the ahmadis in many islamic countries such as Pakistan would you be in support of secular government and be against the implementation of sharia law? 

    Why or why not?

    If yes would the ahmadi community in Britain be interested in working the council of ex muslims Britain to lobby the government to support secularism.

    This would include banning sharia courts operating in Britain.

    If you support sharia law can you list the reasons for doing so.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #81 - December 27, 2012, 07:14 PM
    TheDarkRebel,

    I am not here representing the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association UK in any official capacity, so I will not be able to respond to your request for collaboration. If you would like to take this further the contact details won't be hard to find on the internet.

    As a Muslim, I follow the sunnah of the Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him). If you are familiar with the treaty of Medina (http://www.themuslimtimes.org/2012/11/uncategorized/the-constitution-of-medina-a-symbol-of-pluralism-in-islam), I hope you understand that it was a document that set the standard in terms of seperation of the 'church (mosque?) and state' for any multi-cultural society.

    As an Ahmadi Muslim I of course strive to live by the Shari'ah, but that is my personal choice - not something to be enforced by the government I live under. Before you start bashing shari'ah here's a version you might not be so averse to: http://theartofmisinformation.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/shariah-law-the-protector-of-human-rights/

    I am not too familiar with the Shariah court system in the UK, but as far as I know from some other countries, a person has the option whether they would like to be tried under the shariah court or the regular courts. If that is the case, then surely you should not be lobbying against the government's attempt at what they consider to be embracing multiculturalism, but rather be lobbying to the heads of these shariah courts that they should apply shariah law in the proper and correct manner. No?
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #82 - December 27, 2012, 07:23 PM
    I'm not gonna bash sharia law but you can't honestly deny that sharia law has been used to persecute the ahmadi and qadiani community as well as ex muslims by labeling members of your religous community as heretics and apostates. and we all know that once someone is branded as an apostate under mainstream sunni islam this hadith is used to persecute people

    Quote
    Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
    Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260




    As far as the Sharia courts in Britain go you might wanna watch this video by CEMB that shows that sharia courts are not really consensual.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GLfHd3Y0DE
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #83 - December 27, 2012, 07:49 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 27, 2012, 07:14 PM
    I am not too familiar with the Shariah court system in the UK, but as far as I know from some other countries, a person has the option whether they would like to be tried under the shariah court or the regular courts. If that is the case, then surely you should not be lobbying against the government's attempt at what they consider to be embracing multiculturalism, but rather be lobbying to the heads of these shariah courts that they should apply shariah law in the proper and correct manner. No?


    The problem with that is that every sect of Islam has a different view of shariah law.

    Second of all multiculturalism means that we accept people of all cultures and ethnicity and give them equal rights. Just because a group of people follow certain beliefs doesn't mean that they get the privilege of following different laws just because their beliefs happen to be religious.

    Religious beliefs should be treated the same way as political beliefs. People with certain political beliefs don't have the privilege of following a different set of laws and the same should apply to religion.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #84 - December 27, 2012, 08:00 PM
    The video seems to conflate the right of sharia courts to exist in the UK with the right of people (women especially) to not be pressured into submitting to them. Is this a secularism vs shariah issue, or a human rights issue? It seems to me it is a 'get Islam out and the problem will go away' approach to a very complex issue.

    We both fight injustice. The difference between us is that you consider these injustices as Islamic, whereas I consider ALL injustices to be unIslamic. You fight injustice by leaving Islam and conducting your struggle from the outside, whereas I try to fight injustice by delving deeper into Islam and conducting my struggle from within. As you may know, the function of the Messiah in most worldwide religions was to restore them to their original beauty, and this Messiah would come at a time when there was something that actually needed restoring/reviving.

    If you ask me if the shariah being meted out in these shariah courts is pure and free from the need for review then my answer is NO.
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #85 - December 27, 2012, 09:48 PM
    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 27, 2012, 06:55 PM
    yeezevee,

    In my experience most prejudices come from ignorance. It is not unfair to expect people to have some substance to their posts. Theapproach should not be compromised on, especially in a place like this.

    Good point Shah.. yes.. thinking is good ,thinking before speaking is also good,  but one must learn to compromise when you are interacting with people of different backgrounds. Every one who joins the forum are not prophets ,  messengers and are not as intelligent as you are or as nice as you are. . They also need to express their views however wrong  they may be.  As long as you and me have freedom  and freedom to express to correct the views of other people  we should not get upset.  Anyways I am glad you are clearing the doubts of people on Islam and Ahmadiyya Islam..

    Quote from: KShah_KE on December 27, 2012, 08:00 PM
    ................ As you may know, the function of the Messiah in most worldwide religions was to restore them to their original beauty, and this Messiah would come at a time when there was something that actually needed restoring/reviving.

    hmm "religions was to restore them to their original beauty"   that is a good one.

     I didn't know religions have beauty, I only know they are beliefs of their time...  I wonder about the arrival time and place of next  Messiah..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #86 - December 29, 2012, 08:39 AM
    Hello Shah.. what happened? again you are missing in action?

    well you being an Ahmadiyya  Islam follower, you may be interested in reading Qasim Rashid. Please read through the links at    this post. One thing I must say here,    Ahmadiyya  Muslim community is a very well educated highly cultured society and it includes that illustrious  Ahmadiyya Muslim Noble laureate Prof. Abdus Salam. , I have written on and off in different  forums on him. So you may be interested in reading that also
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #87 - December 29, 2012, 10:13 AM
     Huh?
    Yeah what happened here, why? Where's Shah?
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #88 - January 02, 2013, 10:09 AM
    The DarkRebel, you may be interested in this article: http://www.alislam.org/egazette/updates/reply-to-allegation-that-shariah-law-must-be-established-everywhere-forcibly/
  • Apostasy and Islam - (@KShah_KE)
     Reply #89 - January 02, 2013, 10:10 AM
    yeezevee thank you for your kind words regarding the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community
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