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Theme Changer

 Topic: Reverting back to Islam

 (Read 13372 times)
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  • Reverting back to Islam
     OP - January 20, 2013, 05:46 AM

    I had been dwelling in atheism for quite some times, then I shifted to agnoticism. This period on uncertainty took more than 4 years. Nevertheless, recently, there has been a stronge "urge" within me to revert back to Islam. This sounds quite strange but I missed those days when I stand in prayer and recited the Quran.

    In fact, there is a fresh awakening interest to re-read the Quran again. I admitted, the book is beautiful when read in Arabic original.

    Anyone here share similar feeling?
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #1 - January 20, 2013, 07:40 AM

    Welcome Shinsengumi  parrot bunny
    A few nights ago I found myself wanting to do my old nightly du'a routine. I'd do wudu, read ayat-al-kursi, surat-al-Mulk, and a couple of du'as before bed. I found myself about to start before I realised I wasn't Muslim anymore and then I became sad for about 2 seconds thinking of what I was missing out on. I think it's normal to have those little kind of moments, and it's not awfully upsetting or difficult for me at all but I think it might be slightly different for you as you appear to be into prayer and Quran (as opposed to my fleeting nostalgia over my old routine). You can still read/listen to the Quran if you're so inclined, no big deal. I love love love music and thanks to that shaitan blocked my heart and the Quran was never really appealing to me and I don't miss it at all.  

    Tbh, I still make du'as for people, despite not even believing in Allah, I just feel like I have to when I'm asked (especially by my mum). Just saying "ya Allah, help my mother with X, Y, Z" helps me deal with the guilt of not being able to do "real" du'a for my mum so I do that, it's silly but it makes me feel better. If the Quran does that for you, then just read it! 
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #2 - January 20, 2013, 09:18 AM

    Welcome Shinsengumi  parrot bunny
    A few nights ago I found myself wanting to do my old nightly du'a routine. I'd do wudu, read ayat-al-kursi, surat-al-Mulk, and a couple of du'as before bed. I found myself about to start before I realised I wasn't Muslim anymore and then I became sad for about 2 seconds thinking of what I was missing out on. I think it's normal to have those little kind of moments, and it's not awfully upsetting or difficult for me at all but I think it might be slightly different for you as you appear to be into prayer and Quran (as opposed to my fleeting nostalgia over my old routine). You can still read/listen to the Quran if you're so inclined, no big deal. I love love love music and thanks to that shaitan blocked my heart and the Quran was never really appealing to me and I don't miss it at all.  

    Tbh, I still make du'as for people, despite not even believing in Allah, I just feel like I have to when I'm asked (especially by my mum). Just saying "ya Allah, help my mother with X, Y, Z" helps me deal with the guilt of not being able to do "real" du'a for my mum so I do that, it's silly but it makes me feel better. If the Quran does that for you, then just read it! 


    I think the things that occur around me sometimes trigger my mind to indulge in deep thinking, pondering about it a long time, and that's one of the reason that cause my re-awakening interest in the Quran. I had been ditching that book, criticizing it for quite a long time, even debates with Muslims online until I realize how pointless it is to do so.

    I used to frequent the FFI site and read some of Sina's works. At first, those articles and even his book seemed appealing to me. However, later, I realized that something is not right with his line of thinking, even at psychological level. For example, he said in his book that Muhammad's broken and lonely childhood cause him to despise his mother, believing she is hell-dweller. However, when I read those verses in the Quran that promote obedient and love to one's mother, even if they are not believers, it triggers my brain to think, that it was not reality of the matter.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #3 - January 20, 2013, 09:31 AM

    Xianity has a group sea of faith

    Quote
    All at Sea?

    If the state of religion today seems to be 'all at sea', inviting the angry rejection of its claims as dangerous delusions, what could be better than to explore that vast sea in all its dangerous storms, its profound and mysterious depths and its serenity and beauty?

    The Sea of Faith Network takes Matthew Arnold's image of the ebbing sea in his poem 'Dover Beach', but uses it in many different ways — exploring, daring to leave dry certainties behind, plumbing new depths

    For Network members, all matters of religion are rooted in history, culture and language. None of them can validly claim divine authority. For many members of Sea of Faith this realisation goes hand-in-hand with a deep appreciation that religion is a tremendous human resource.

    Sea of Faith, Science and the New Atheism

    There is no such thing as God, because God is not a thing. Neither Science nor religion 'explains' reality, but each is a way of exploring it. Science and religion do not need to be enemies. Neither do theists and atheists.

    Sea of Faith and the Arts

    We do not claim a supernatural origin for Nature, but we find wonder in it. In the arts and the religions (often closely interlinked) we explore and express that wonder, we create new wonders, and we find meaning.

    Sea of Faith and World Religions

    Most religious believers tend to see the religions of others as human creations. Realising that our own is also a human creation can be an aid to genuine respect and understanding. We are beginning to explore this in more depth.

    What is the Sea of Faith Network?

    The Sea of Faith Network was started in 1987 in response to Don Cupitt's television series which charted the withdrawal of Christendom.

    The Sea of Faith Network continues to explore the riches of human religious traditions without any reference to a supposed divine reality outside human experience.



    http://www.sofn.org.uk/intro/all_at_sea.html

    Is there a post modern Islam out there?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #4 - January 20, 2013, 10:24 AM

    Oh be quiet.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #5 - January 20, 2013, 10:34 AM

    Shinsengumi, why did you leave Islam? Why are those reasons not convincing any more? Can you understand Arabic/ the Qur'an? I agree that it can sound beautiful but all of that fades away when you know what is being said. Do you realise that that beautiful sounding tarteel you're listening to is most likely a verse about hell or the massacre of this or that people by Allah? It is true that Islam gives you a sense of identity and community or belonging and it's natural to miss that from time to time, I mean I've never experienced it or longed for it but I can understand where you're coming from. But to want to revert completely? I don't understand that.

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #6 - January 21, 2013, 04:27 AM

    Shinsengumi, why did you leave Islam? Why are those reasons not convincing any more? Can you understand Arabic/ the Qur'an? I agree that it can sound beautiful but all of that fades away when you know what is being said. Do you realise that that beautiful sounding tarteel you're listening to is most likely a verse about hell or the massacre of this or that people by Allah? It is true that Islam gives you a sense of identity and community or belonging and it's natural to miss that from time to time, I mean I've never experienced it or longed for it but I can understand where you're coming from. But to want to revert completely? I don't understand that.


    First and foremost , I left Islam more than 4 years ago due to my disatisfaction with some of its injunctions and teachings, i.e. license to have sexual intercourse with one's slaves, Muhammad's marriage with Aisha and all that. I admit that Arabic is not something I can comprehend fully.

    As for the verses about hell fire, as I mentioned earlier, I gave the Quran a second try and some of the verses actually make sense, since God owes us nothing in this life, if he exists, as he was our creator. If I create a robot( with feeling) on my own volition, it will not be cruelty to destroy the robots later as I do not violate other's creator's rights.  Moreover,  there are pletora of verses that praised doing righteous deeds too.

    Besides this, the claim of plagiarism of Quran from earlier scriptures does not really hold water anymore because Muhammad carefully edit and audit all those immoral and atrocious stories from the Old Testament, and presented in his Quran the candy version of the prophets. All the previous prophets were spoken of with high status and respect.

    I used to make fun of Sura- At-Tahrim and called that chapter as shameful and immoral. However, when I gave the chapter another chance, I can feel that how can Muhammad want to expose himself to the whole community about his failed family management at that time? It is absurd for him to lower his grade and publicize his failure to properly handle his wives.

    And many other verses that initially form doubts in my mind seems to be now quite acceptable.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #7 - January 21, 2013, 10:19 AM

    Quote
    i.e. license to have sexual intercourse with one's slaves... And many other verses that initially form doubts in my mind seems to be now quite acceptable.


    Whatever floats your boat. Most societies throughout history have found it acceptable to use (downtrodden) women for sex.

    Quote
    If I create a robot( with feeling) on my own volition, it will not be cruelty to destroy the robots later as I do not violate other's creator's rights.


    Who said anything about destruction? The creatures aren't destroyed - that's emphasized in the Quran. The creatures are tortured - forever. Destruction is a completely different story. We're talking about skin ripped off from faces, dragged with hooks, boiling brains - for refusing to submit to the revelation of this 7th century prophet.



     
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #8 - January 21, 2013, 02:10 PM

    It is your choice if you want to revert to Islam. We wont kill you for being an apostate like the latter. Islam is a package that you have to take or leave. There are too many contradictions in the Quran with verses calling for opposite things. It is like the verse that says that "killing one human being is like one has killed all humanity" and in contrast "The punishment for apostasy is death". Or another contradiction "Anyone who blasphemes against the prophet should be crucified or their hands and feet cut off on opposite sides". I am a firm believer that prayer means nothing if it does not come from the heart. Why should one help the poor because Allah commands it rather than out of the goodness of your heart.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #9 - January 21, 2013, 02:36 PM

    I had been dwelling in atheism for quite some times, then I shifted to agnoticism. This period on uncertainty took more than 4 years. Nevertheless, recently, there has been a stronge "urge" within me to revert back to Islam. This sounds quite strange but I missed those days when I stand in prayer and recited the Quran.

    In fact, there is a fresh awakening interest to re-read the Quran again. I admitted, the book is beautiful when read in Arabic original.

    Anyone here share similar feeling?

    No.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #10 - January 21, 2013, 03:10 PM

    Perhaps I am going out on a limb here, but I assume that deep down inside, you must have known that you would not get much support for the idea of reverting back to Islam on this forum. Perhaps what you were really looking for was discouragement? If so, allow me to help.

    Firstly, I can relate to all of the different feelings of nostalgia that arise when you think back on your days as a Muslim. For me, I used to love listening to the recitation of the Qur'an. I had tapes and CD's of all of my favorite reciters and had the honor of meeting some of them personally. Tarteel is an art form, and just like any other work of art, it can elicit strong emotions from those who experience it. That does not, however, make it divine. Classical Music, beautiful paintings, passionate speeches, and many other elegant or eloquent forms of human expression can all be very moving. I encourage you to enjoy the beauty that you find in the Qur'an for what it is, beauty, without committing yourself to all the backwards and foolish nonsense that you must accept if you were to go back to taking it as the literal word of God. I now listen to the Qur'an some times, as well as to Christmas songs, hip hop and southern rock. I hold none of it sacred.

    Secondly, going back to Islam is more than simply going back to living your life as a Muslim, it is and must be going back to believing the untrue. Honestly, I never had a problem trying my best to keep up with all the rules and regulations that Islam required. I prayed, I fasted, I only had sex with my wife. If there were any shortcomings on my part, I saw them as opportunities to better myself. What I did have a problem with was believing, for example, that our minuscule and almost insignificant Earth came before, and took longer to create than, the heavens and the stars. Or that Adam was created from clay at 60 cubits tall and that man kind has been decreasing in stature ever since. Or that the most merciful being in existence could also be a sadistic monster. As one would expect of a book written in the 7th century Arabian deserts, the Qur'an contains numerous statements that are simply not true. Since I know that I could never believe those things, and since Islam requires you to first believe before your actions have any weight, I know I can never go back to being a Muslim. Neither should you.

    Lastly, you should not go back to Islam because Islam can not offer you anything in return. Islam never promises to make you happy or to give you an easier life on earth. Islam does not help you get a better job, it does not help you have a successful relationship with your significant other. Islam is all about obeying and doing what Muhammad wanted you to do-no matter how shitty your life turns out because of it. In return for submitting your logic, your reasoning, your desire, and your ambitions to the commands of the self proclaimed prophet, you are promised a big, fat carrot in the sky after you die. The only problem is that there really is no carrot. You will die and that will be the end of it. The only life that you are sure to experience, the only body and mind that you are sure to have, will have been wasted on archaic rules and superstitious beliefs. I think I speak on behalf of the majority of people on this forum when I strongly advise you against making a move like that.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #11 - January 21, 2013, 04:41 PM

    Great thing about about Atheism if you want to go back to religion we're not going to throw a fit. I would like to think our priority is to support for those who chose to leave, and explain why we left, not trying to get people to leave.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #12 - January 21, 2013, 05:00 PM

    As for the verses about hell fire, as I mentioned earlier, I gave the Quran a second try and some of the verses actually make sense, since God owes us nothing in this life, if he exists, as he was our creator. If I create a robot( with feeling) on my own volition, it will not be cruelty to destroy the robots later as I do not violate other's creator's rights.  Moreover,  there are pletora of verses that praised doing righteous deeds too.

    But we are not robots. We are thinking, feeling, self-aware beings with the capacity to experience pain and to suffer. Your argument only works of we ignore the profound game changer of the human condition. It is this capacity to suffer that makes wrongness enter the equation.

    Moreover, if one creates a robot with similar self-awareness and feelings to a human and then proceeds to subject it to endless agony, that would also make one a depraved evil lunatic. Not only does your analogy fail, but it's also bypassing the principle reason Hell is immoral.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #13 - January 21, 2013, 06:12 PM

    Are you considering going back to Islam as in to sincerely believe its true or is it that you wish to just do the things that you enjoyed while you were a Muslim.

    If it is the former, then I would advise to way up whether you have a good reason to go back and it is not just based on religious faith. Which I think will most likely be the case. If you can get yourself to believe again through faith alone then I don't think any rational justification from us for you to remain irreligious will effect your decision to go back. I will tell you this you will always have the question of WHAT IF in your mind.

    If the latter is the case, you could always adapt those principles in your own life without even having to believe in them, you wont be condemned anyway. If you feel doing salat the traditional way helps you to focus, why not. I enjoy meditating, does not mean I am considering joining Buddhism/Hinduism. I still apply things I learnt through Islamic traditions which I feel is good practical advice. Like greeting people with positive greeting, Cleansiness etc.

    About Hell and robots example. It is a poor analogy like Ishina stated. You are missing the whole idea of human awareness. Also the Idea of hell contradicts Gods mercy, Justice. God created beings that he knew will go to Hell. It is a bigger mercy to not create them at first. You might be failing to grasp the idea that God created fallible biengs, then to punish them for bieng fallible. If you think there is free-will in Islam then you need to look up Free will.

    What free-will is and what Islam teaches it as are two different concepts conflated with the same name. Islam promotes the abilty to choose in situations where there is a choice, this is a basic observation of reality. However they add the concept of predeterminism, which is supported by numerous verses in the Quran. This means there is absolutely no free-will in Islam. To say otherwise is to say the Quran is false. Having free-will implies the ability to supersede gods will. Its one or the other.

  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #14 - January 21, 2013, 06:23 PM

    But we are not robots. We are thinking, feeling, self-aware beings with the capacity to experience pain and to suffer. Your argument only works of we ignore the profound game changer of the human condition. It is this capacity to suffer that makes wrongness enter the equation.

    Moreover, if one creates a robot with similar self-awareness and feelings to a human and then proceeds to subject it to endless agony, that would also make one a depraved evil lunatic. Not only does your analogy fail, but it's also bypassing the principle reason Hell is immoral.


    ^This

    Plus, what does it say about the state of a being who would create "robots" who have the full capacity to anger him and throw him into such a rage that he would want to torture them eternally? Why not just save himself all the trouble of being all bent out of shape by the robots' transgressions and not create them at all?

    What does it say about a being who would create infinitely inferior beings, beings of infinitely less power, infinitely less ability, infinitely less knowledge, only so that they can spend their days telling him how great he is? How fulfilling can that really be for a being as great and wise as God?

    Imagine me creating millions of ants, tiny, insignificant ants. Then imagine me watching over them as they shuffle about, caring about what they eat, how they mate, and what they think and believe about the universe and me as a person. Then imagine me desperately wanting those ants to praise me an tell me how awesome I am. Then imagine me torturing the ones who did not realize that singing about my greatness and awesomeness was the only reason I created them in the first place. Imagine me pulling off their tiny little ant legs, dunking them into tiny pools of vinegar, or scorching them with my giant magnifying glass. Imagine me deliberately keeping them in agony but making sure they don't die, all so that they know that I really was smarter and more awesome than them all along. What would you say about me if I told you that was my "wise, merciful" plan?

     Perhaps the hundredth name of God should be "The Insane," but I prefer to think it should be "The Non-Existent"  
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #15 - January 21, 2013, 08:58 PM

    Great thing about about Atheism if you want to go back to religion we're not going to throw a fit. I would like to think our priority is to support for those who chose to leave, and explain why we left, not trying to get people to leave.

    +1000000. 
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #16 - January 22, 2013, 05:10 AM

    Thanks for all your feedbacks. It's nice to receive replies that do not sound bigoted. Today, I read the ali sina's website again( alisina.org), he committed another lie by saying that the gang raped that occurred in India were committed by the Muslims, while in actual fact, it's all over the news that they were not Muslims, but Hindus. You all can check his article there.

    This come as a heavy blow to me again because if he can lie at this obvious thing, how about something related to the Quran?

    In replying to "happymurtad", you equate the Quran with normal music, well, i have no objection to that, but have you ever think how Muhammad can think and dictated so many information throughout his 23 years life? I mean, look at the Quran, it virtually discussed everything, from natural phenomena to inheritance division.

    Also, Quran is very clear about who we can marry, who we cannot( mothers, sisters, etc), which i can say by human standard is acceptable, either in ancient time to present time.

    Seems like the "faith" is starting to grown again.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #17 - January 22, 2013, 05:13 AM

    If it is something you can make yourself believe, if you are willing to overlook all the inconsistencies and inhumane parts, and if you feel a need to belong to it, you should go back. To each their own. Nobody has the right to stop you from going into or out of any religion, from reinterpreting it, from trying to reform it, or from following without question or critical thinking. Do what you want. Just remember that if you talk to Muslims, try and help them be better, help them relate to nonmuslims and exmuslims better. Be an ambassador for goodwill and humaneness no matter where you go.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #18 - January 22, 2013, 06:32 AM

    (Damnnit why are my posts never short and to the point ) -__- Oh to respond to your

    Thanks for all your feedbacks. It's nice to receive replies that do not sound bigoted. Today, I read the ali sina's website again( alisina.org), he committed another lie by saying that the gang raped that occurred in India were committed by the Muslims, while in actual fact, it's all over the news that they were not Muslims, but Hindus. You all can check his article there.

    This come as a heavy blow to me again because if he can lie at this obvious thing, how about something related to the Quran?

    In replying to "happymurtad", you equate the Quran with normal music, well, i have no objection to that, but have you ever think how Muhammad can think and dictated so many information throughout his 23 years life? I mean, look at the Quran, it virtually discussed everything, from natural phenomena to inheritance division.

    Also, Quran is very clear about who we can marry, who we cannot( mothers, sisters, etc), which i can say by human standard is acceptable, either in ancient time to present time.

    Seems like the "faith" is starting to grown again.


    1. Just like someone lied about the rape in India being Muslims, there are many articles where Muslims lie about converts to Islam. My favorite example Sunita Williams.
    -->http://www.mediamugint.com/news-current-events/nasa-astronaut-sunita-williamsconverted-islam-reality/
    They admitted that it was a hoax, yet try to cover up the desperate embarrassment by saying "Oh we don't need her" Roll Eyes (BTW I have seen Muslims still posting this on FB as fact)
    Point, it happens on both ends. YES there are some people who make false lies against Muslims and Islam, but that does not mean some Muslims have not done the same. In fact lying is permissible in Islam Taqiyya and mentioned apparently in the Quran and Hadiths. Think about this next time you listen to 'reasoning' from the other side. I'm sure if you look around the internet there are people who actually endorsed this. And I remember one member here talking about when he use to do Dawah to non-Muslims mention doing this.
    --> http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm

    2. How can Muhammad know so many things? Well think about it, it was not uncommon for travelers of that time to hear stories from various people. Arabs in Muhammad's time interacted a lot with Jews and Christians (Hence why Islam is based off of an already existing religion it's not 100% new and original). And there are scientific faults in Quran, such as the sun revolving around the earth, etc. because that's what people thought was true AT THE TIME. You can also ask yourself how did Einstein get the knowledge he did? From a divine being? But he was Jewish does that make Judaism the true religion or Einstein a prophet? Or the many non-Muslim scientists who have invented and discovered things, and cured deadly diseases, saving and improving many lives, that no one before them knew or any Holy book has mentioned? Do we worship them as prophets given divine knowledge. Scientific discoveries by people (past, present and future) has no place for someone to claim divine knowledge from God. It's arrogant and dangerous. But somehow Muhammad recites a few science stuff and BAM that's proof he's a prophet from God? Think about that.

    3. The Quran is clear about a lot of things, but that doesn't make it true or appropriate. The Quran is also clear about what should happen to every apostate on this forum. Also the Quran is not the only Religion/ Culture that says that marrying family just isn't right. , nothing special. Also there is a scientific explanation humans (except in rare cases) why humans are not usually attracted to their family members. --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect (research other sources if you don't trust wiki)
    You don't need a religion to tell you that. If that was true everyone non-Muslim person in the world would be freely marrying their family members. But as you can look around you that is not the case, it's a natural thing. Again there are rare cases, but it's not common practice.

    Point is the reason why 'I' personally don't buy into Islam claims, is that it claims it is the true religion by pointing out things (most times common sense things) every other religion/culture in the world has done already or before, without even knowing of Islam.

    BUT that being said. Some people need religion in their lives to feel like their lives having meaning. Also that sense of structure and comfort of always being looked after by a higher being. Everyone is free to do what he/she wishes. I'm simply pointing out from my point of view, why I do not agree with your reasons for feeling Islam is true.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #19 - January 23, 2013, 12:56 AM

    "In replying to "happymurtad", you equate the Quran with normal music, well, i have no objection to that, but have you ever think how Muhammad can think and dictated so many information throughout his 23 years life? I mean, look at the Quran, it virtually discussed everything, from natural phenomena to inheritance division.



    I did not equate the Qu’ran to music, I compared it. The Qur’an is very moving and eloquent in some parts. I have no problems admitting that. There are also many other works of human expression that I find to be moving and eloquent. From the writings of early Christian scholars to the Gettysburg Address, human beings are capable of coming up with powerful pieces of writing. That is not, however, proof of divinity.

    23 years, or 8395 days, is an extremely long time to devote to a single work. I do not consider that to be miraculous at all. Muhammad certainly did not mention anything that was not mentioned before him. As has been demonstrated elsewhere on this forum, Muhammad borrowed heavily from other sources, facts and errors alike.

    While I respect your right to determine your own future, I can not pretend to be as passive about the prospect of  you going back to Islam as some others may be. That is not because I have a hatred for Muslims or because I think that Islam will turn you into an evil person. I was, for the entire time that I was a Muslim, a good, peaceful, law abiding citizen. But given the choice between having someone waste their life believing in falsehood or helping someone cherish the only shot at life we are sure to get, I prefer the latter; and I consider it my duty to you as a fellow human being to persuade you in that direction. I would also feel devastated if you were to happen to fall into the type of fundamentalism that has ruined the great minds of many a convert. If you do go back, I will feel sorry for you, in the same way that I would feel sorry for a relapsed cocaine addict. As your brother in humanity, I cannot say “Well, if cocaine works for you, if it makes you happy, then I am ok with it.” But I will not hate you. I wish only the best for you, and Islam is certainly not it.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #20 - January 23, 2013, 05:58 AM

    23 years, or 8395 days, is an extremely long time to devote to a single work. I do not consider that to be miraculous at all. Muhammad certainly did not mention anything that was not mentioned before him. As has been demonstrated elsewhere on this forum, Muhammad borrowed heavily from other sources, facts and errors alike.


    Tolstoy wrote the far longer War & Peace in a quarter of that time. Shakespeare managed 37/38 plays. Steinbeck wrote The Grapes of Wrath in (if my memory serves me correctly) 100 days.

    23 years to create a mish-mash rehashed religious text is no great achievement.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #21 - January 23, 2013, 06:51 PM

    I think we have to separate religion as 'truth' from religion as spiritual way of life.

    There is and probably will always be a yearning in most of us for some kind of greater spiritual connection with life and people.
    This is where people find comfort in religion... any religion really.
    People feel this when praying in Islam, doing Yoga, singing in church, meditating...

    As most of us grew up in Islam, we probably do some some kind of spiritual connection with Islam and the Koran.
    Koran recitation is often beautifully recited and so carries some of that weight.

    It is always going to be a problem for atheism/agnostics. It's great to be right... but it's hard to feel alone. How to replace that spiritual connection that people used to have.
    Friday prayers forces Muslims to get together in the act, as does Sunday Church for Christians.

    So if you don't intellectually believe Islam to be right, you might still need some kind of spiritual connection.
    You'll have to find your own way to it. Maybe meditation. Maybe Yoga. Or maybe you just like Koran recitation or prayer.

    I know myself, I'm still at the stage where doing anything Islamic feels repulsive and worshiping falsehood.
    Maybe you can get beyond that and just appreciate the Koran as music you can meditate to.

  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #22 - January 24, 2013, 06:00 AM

     
    Quote
    Just like someone lied about the rape in India being Muslims, there are many articles where Muslims lie about converts to Islam. My favorite example Sunita Williams.
    -->http://www.mediamugint.com/news-current-events/nasa-astronaut-sunita-williamsconverted-islam-reality/
    They admitted that it was a hoax, yet try to cover up the desperate embarrassment by saying "Oh we don't need her"  (BTW I have seen Muslims still posting this on FB as fact)
    Point, it happens on both ends. YES there are some people who make false lies against Muslims and Islam, but that does not mean some Muslims have not done the same. In fact lying is permissible in Islam Taqiyya and mentioned apparently in the Quran and Hadiths. Think about this next time you listen to 'reasoning' from the other side. I'm sure if you look around the internet there are people who actually endorsed this. And I remember one member here talking about when he use to do Dawah to non-Muslims mention doing this.

     

    Sakura-chan, certainly there are religious zealots out there that spread uncorfirmed rumours from unverified sources to strengthen their belief. I can add about Neil Armstrong too. But this does not in any way cover up the lies I mentioned earlier. I feel that there is a movement to dehumanize and demonize the Muslims and called for their absolute destruction.

    We must not forget that many people did "revert" to Islam like Cat Steven, Yusuf Estes and speak highly about the Quran like Maurice Bucaille and Keith Moore.

    Quote
    How can Muhammad know so many things? Well think about it, it was not uncommon for travelers of that time to hear stories from various people. Arabs in Muhammad's time interacted a lot with Jews and Christians (Hence why Islam is based off of an already existing religion it's not 100% new and original). And there are scientific faults in Quran, such as the sun revolving around the earth, etc. because that's what people thought was true AT THE TIME. You can also ask yourself how did Einstein get the knowledge he did? From a divine being? But he was Jewish does that make Judaism the true religion or Einstein a prophet? Or the many non-Muslim scientists who have invented and discovered things, and cured deadly diseases, saving and improving many lives, that no one before them knew or any Holy book has mentioned? Do we worship them as prophets given divine knowledge. Scientific discoveries by people (past, present and future) has no place for someone to claim divine knowledge from God. It's arrogant and dangerous. But somehow Muhammad recites a few science stuff and BAM that's proof he's a prophet from God? Think about that.



    I am aware about the endless debates with regards to the scientific information in the Quran. But Muhammad meticulously edited and audited the Old Testamant, which contains atrocious massacres, genocides, ethnic cleansing and immoral prophetic history and seemed to be cherry picked solely the positive side. Now, that's quite admirable. Moreover, you conveneintly left out the contributions by Muslim scientists during the peak of Islamic civilization.
    Quote
    The Quran is clear about a lot of things, but that doesn't make it true or appropriate. The Quran is also clear about what should happen to every apostate on this forum. Also the Quran is not the only Religion/ Culture that says that marrying family just isn't right. , nothing special. Also there is a scientific explanation humans (except in rare cases) why humans are not usually attracted to their family members. --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect (research other sources if you don't trust wiki)
    You don't need a religion to tell you that. If that was true everyone non-Muslim person in the world would be freely marrying their family members. But as you can look around you that is not the case, it's a natural thing. Again there are rare cases, but it's not common practice.

     

    The Quran emphasized on the prohibition of incest among family members, no other religious books on the surface of this earth possess such clear injunctions. Of course we do not need religions to tell us this, but Quran served as a reminder for this moral guidelines. If Muhammad was an impostor, he can easily legalize debauchery and incest to gain more followers, but he didn’t. He took all the trouble to advice his followers to love and respect your own mothers, be kind to orphan and avoid swindling their property, etc. Why took all the trouble to teach such virtues?
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #23 - January 24, 2013, 06:21 AM

    Quote
    I did not equate the Qu’ran to music, I compared it. The Qur’an is very moving and eloquent in some parts. I have no problems admitting that. There are also many other works of human expression that I find to be moving and eloquent. From the writings of early Christian scholars to the Gettysburg Address, human beings are capable of coming up with powerful pieces of writing. That is not, however, proof of divinity.

    Fine enough, but look at the ocean of information in the Quran, from a mind that is free from prejudice and bias. I used to criticize the Quran heavily and borrowed arguments from the like of Ali Sina and others, but later, I realized how futile it was to depend on hatemongers. That is why I re-read again the Quran with a more objective mind to see whether my previous zeal was justified or not. And then, I found Sura At-Talaq. This chapter is really beautiful because of how we should in the matter of divorce. The Quran never ever mentioned about mistreatment or abuse of women there but must treat them with kindness, even in the case of separation. The Quran also vehemently prohibited against taking away the dowry from the wife. Again, I feel different this time.

    Quote
    Tolstoy wrote the far longer War & Peace in a quarter of that time. Shakespeare managed 37/38 plays. Steinbeck wrote The Grapes of Wrath in (if my memory serves me correctly) 100 days.

    23 years to create a mish-mash rehashed religious text is no great achievement.

    The difference was that Muhammad mentioned so many things in the Quran, discussing many topics, even the formation of new life in the womb to natural phenomena. And all these were described in beautiful Arabic proses, rhythm and poetic. That’s quite unique.

    Quote
    I think we have to separate religion as 'truth' from religion as spiritual way of life.

    There is and probably will always be a yearning in most of us for some kind of greater spiritual connection with life and people.
    This is where people find comfort in religion... any religion really.
    People feel this when praying in Islam, doing Yoga, singing in church, meditating...

    As most of us grew up in Islam, we probably do some some kind of spiritual connection with Islam and the Koran.
    Koran recitation is often beautifully recited and so carries some of that weight.

    It is always going to be a problem for atheism/agnostics. It's great to be right... but it's hard to feel alone. How to replace that spiritual connection that people used to have.
    Friday prayers forces Muslims to get together in the act, as does Sunday Church for Christians.

    So if you don't intellectually believe Islam to be right, you might still need some kind of spiritual connection.
    You'll have to find your own way to it. Maybe meditation. Maybe Yoga. Or maybe you just like Koran recitation or prayer.

    I know myself, I'm still at the stage where doing anything Islamic feels repulsive and worshiping falsehood.
    Maybe you can get beyond that and just appreciate the Koran as music you can meditate to.

    Thanks for your good advice, bro. I used to think the same, but gradually, I began to appreciate those again.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #24 - January 24, 2013, 06:23 AM

    So, you think the only choices are to be a Muslim or to be a hate-monger against Muslims?

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #25 - January 24, 2013, 06:37 AM

    I simply can not go back because I just don't agree with its concept of hell.  That teaching is immoral no matter how you spin it. Even if I'm wrong and its a real place I will not abide.

    "In every religion there is love, yet love has no religion"

    "The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea." - Rumi
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #26 - January 24, 2013, 08:53 AM

    Quote
    I simply can not go back because I just don't agree with its concept of hell.  That teaching is immoral no matter how you spin it. Even if I'm wrong and its a real place I will not abide.


    That’s how I think previously, I will never go back. Maybe you are very young and your spirit is rebellious now. Give yourself the time, re-read the Quran again. At least, if you cannot accept some of its teachings, you will realize that some of its injunctions are very noble, especially in the matter of orphan’s treatment, and description to be filial. Muhammad can just brush this aside if it is unimportant for his mission; after all, he was accused of being a debaucher, right? Why should he take the trouble to advice his followers to be kind to orphan then and treated their mothers respectfully even if they are not believers then? To me, this is a very powerful magnet that “attracts” me back.
    Yes, the description about hell fire is a little over the board, and I cannot rationalize that either. But, since, we share this world with the likes of Hitler and Stalin, I don’t mind if these two are roasted in hell fire vehemently.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #27 - January 24, 2013, 09:08 AM

    Quote
    So, you think the only choices are to be a Muslim or to be a hate-monger against Muslims?


    I honestly do not know. But I do know that the hatemongers are not only denouncing the religion, but to severely demonize and dehumanize the Muslims as well. And in doing so, they resort to lies and falsification of information. They initially accused their enemies of these traits, but now absorbing the traits themselves.
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #28 - January 24, 2013, 09:16 AM

    Give yourself the time, re-read the Quran again. At least, if you cannot accept some of its teachings, you will realize that some of its injunctions are very noble, especially in the matter of orphan’s treatment, and description to be filial. Muhammad can just brush this aside if it is unimportant for his mission; after all, he was accused of being a debaucher, right? Why should he take the trouble to advice his followers to be kind to orphan then and treated their mothers respectfully even if they are not believers then? To me, this is a very powerful magnet that “attracts” me back.

    Why can't you just adopt those very few positive things about Islam without taking the rest of the negative baggage? Those noble values are universal and are not specific to Islam. Any person with half a brain cell can figure out what is kind and what is evil at that basic moral level. I'm not going to glorify Islam for teachings that should be common sense.

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • Reverting back to Islam
     Reply #29 - January 24, 2013, 10:59 AM

    you will realize that some of its injunctions are very noble, especially in the matter of orphan’s treatment, and description to be filial. Muhammad can just brush this aside if it is unimportant for his mission; after all, he was accused of being a debaucher, right? Why should he take the trouble to advice his followers to be kind to orphan then and treated their mothers respectfully even if they are not believers then? To me, this is a very powerful magnet that “attracts” me back.
    Yes, the description about hell fire is a little over the board, and I cannot rationalize that either.


    Of course some of the injunctions are noble. You can't gain a following if you're comically wicked. Muhammad was an orphan - it's no surprise he implored ppl to treat orphans with respect! Gifted narcissists are able to artfully conceal self interest. The true test of a noble message? See whether it is consistently noble.   
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