Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:05 AM

Kashmir endgame
April 24, 2025, 05:12 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
April 23, 2025, 04:19 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 23, 2025, 10:03 AM

Pope Francis Signals Rema...
April 21, 2025, 09:06 AM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
April 18, 2025, 01:19 PM

New Britain
April 08, 2025, 05:35 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
March 29, 2025, 01:09 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
March 29, 2025, 08:40 AM

Ramadan
by akay
March 29, 2025, 08:39 AM

Turkish mafia reliance
March 24, 2025, 06:00 PM

افضل الايام
by akay
March 21, 2025, 10:57 AM

Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: How much knowledge of Islam did you have when you apostatisized?
  • I was a dawah master/scholar I had that shit memorized - 3 (6.5%)
  • Too much for my own good. - 27 (58.7%)
  • Average knowledge. - 12 (26.1%)
  • Barely any... just kind of left.. - 4 (8.7%)
  • Total Voters: 45

 Topic: The More you know the Less you want

 (Read 9099 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The More you know the Less you want
     OP - February 25, 2013, 04:28 PM

    Is it just me or does researching about Islam too much do the complete opposite of wanting you to believe.
    I myself liked Islam, before I learnt about it on my own :/ and I was terrified at the things that were not mentioned in the pro-Islamic websites X__X;

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #1 - February 25, 2013, 04:37 PM

    Same here. The more I learnt the less I believed. I just couldnt hear myself make excuses for it any more.

    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #2 - February 26, 2013, 10:11 AM

    Same thing. Learning more about Islam was one of the main reasons I left.

  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #3 - February 26, 2013, 12:18 PM

    The proof lies in the Hadith-collection! I couldnt keep on believing after reading what is considered to be "sahih" (authentic) hadith. Islam became more and more the product of a power-hungry warlord.

    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #4 - February 26, 2013, 12:48 PM

    Yep same.

    I actually had to stop reading the Quran because it weakened my faith. The verses of graphic torture of my fellow human beings too were completely incongruent with the notion of Allah being merciful.

    I remember reading the incredibly bizarre and petty trick that the prophet Joseph played on his brothers, I just shook my head at the passive aggressive behavior of this so called 'prophet of God'.

    Researching into the life of Muhammad was shocking. Muslims (and so did I) will try to assign virtuous motives for behavior and proclamations that would earn any other human being the label of a narcissistic megalomaniac.

    Slavery, and the sex slave trade (the law in no way prevents - and didn't prevent - muslims from buying and selling women as sex slaves), turned my stomach.

    But finding out that the majority position was that Muhammad groomed and abused a child was the first time I experienced serious doubt about Islam. I remember having a panic attack, but consoled myself in 'alternative' interpretations of her age.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #5 - February 26, 2013, 01:15 PM

    when I first started to research, everything began to get very messy. Plus the general concensus among Muslims scholars was that it wasn't wise to think about Islam or anything for that matter without their help. Made me curious to see what was up. Looking back I'm not surprised self understanding is not promoted among the clergy. Anyone with a working brain cell and a HONEST SINCERE search for truth will see what a mess it is.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #6 - February 26, 2013, 01:47 PM

    Rayhana, Saffiyah, Banu Qurayza, Asma bint Marwan (although Muslims say this is not sahih it is in Ibn Ishaq)

    These things shook me and still alarm me.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #7 - February 26, 2013, 03:12 PM

    When I was a pray-on-time Muslim, a friend gave me a book called "Tibb Annabawi" - which means Islamic medicine (something like that). It convinced me that Sunni Islam was total BS and I was happy to be Shia.

    Here are some things I read in it:
    The prophet sucked his wives tongues (it offended me that the prophet was talked about like that and now I dread the thought that it may have been Aisha)
    Eating onions puts you in a bad mood (well I guess they didn't have mints in those days)
    Dipping a fly twice in your food because one wing is a disease and one is a cure (allah balanced the world out like that)
    Seeing a person you don't like can ruin your day (thank you for that amazing wisdom..)

    Islamic medicine Afro Preach that and deny evolution, heaven awaits.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #8 - February 26, 2013, 05:13 PM

    Yep same.

    I actually had to stop reading the Quran because it weakened my faith.


    I know exactly what you mean. I had memorized 23 of the Qu’an’s 30 parts and could understand their meanings. When you go beyond mere recitation and random quoting, when you really begin to contemplate what is being said, the book begins to unravel into a hate-filled rant that seems unworthy of an all-merciful, dignified, intelligent, being. Far from being a book of spiritual inspiration, the Qur’an gives you a very disturbing look into the troubled mindset of Muhammad.

    Even apart from the major things like the sickening descriptions of torture and the unrestricted lust for women, the way the Qur’an was used as a tool to manipulate his followers and play on their fears and hopes was all too disturbing.

    The paranoia that Muhammad had against almost everyone, even his own followers, is very apparent.

    The way that he deflected any criticism away from himself and instead blamed and threatened people who were raising what now I consider to be legitimate concerns was another problem. The Qur’an is full of those “how dare you try to call my bluff” moments.

    Another recurring theme is what I call the “had it not been for x, y would have happened” moments. There are always these weak, mundane, elements that prevent the hand of god from manifesting itself in Muhammad’s career, and subsequently proving his claim to prophethood. “Had it not been that Allah had prescribed exile upon them, he would have punished them in this life.” “Had it not been for a word that had preceded from your lord, the punishment would have been definite” “Had it not been for the mercy of God upon you, a grievous punishment would have touched you” And on and on and on. There is always a pathetic reason why Allah can not act out his will in Muhammad’s life. It was not strange then that Muhammad’s detractors continued to ask him for a simple sign. I agree with them when they refused to leave the ways of their fathers on account of his words and empty threats.

    Another thing that troubled me about the Qur’an was how much disdain and hatred God seemed to have for human beings. He created us with a certain nature, and then sounds completely pissed off that we turned out the way he created us. The Qur’an says that God created us “weak,” “ignorant,” “oppressive,” “impatient,” “ungrateful” and on and on the insults go. As a human being, not only did I find this offensive, I also find it to be an epic fail on God’s part. If his entire purpose behind creating us was to worship and serve him, then he failed. He failed because he deliberately and pointlessly gave us traits that would hinder us from fulfilling our sole purpose for existence. It baffles me why he would be so upset as to want to torture us eternally for turning out exactly the way he created us.

    I could really go on and on with all of the problems I had with the Qur’an, but I think this is enough for now. I’m not sure how Muslims can read through the entire book, believe it is from God, and still have any element of respect and love for the guy. His only redeeming quality is that he does not exist. 
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #9 - February 26, 2013, 05:19 PM

    Ah fascinating. The reason I'm asking is because I feel the more Muslims try to show 'true Islam' to the world. And the more people try to debate atheists and other religions for that matter, more and more flaws will come out. So in other words Islamic dawah to the world just may backfire and it doesn't help being in the age of technology where you can force people to just listen to one point of very or interpretation.

    Point is @_@ Learning more about Islam to be a stronger Muslim and protect Muhammad's dignity  might do the complete opposite.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #10 - February 26, 2013, 05:33 PM

    It wasn't learning more that made me lose my faith. I actually threw myself into study of islam at the age of 19 and so without being conceited about it, I already had a very good understanding of Islam by my early twenties. Yet it was only in my late 40s that I lost my faith.

    For me it wasn't finding out more about Islam but looking at it in a different way - a way I hadn't looked at it before. I think the process of confirmation bias and selective vision that sustains most believers in the face of overwhelming evidence, began to fail me and the pretty vision I had previously had of Islam gradually began to fade and I started seeing a much more ugly reality.

    I have said this before and I'll say it again, although most of us would like to argue that ours was a purely intellectual rejection of Islam, I maintain that one needs emotional factors to give us that jolt to wake us up. In my own case I suspect it was several things including divorce, death of certain loved ones, and events like 911.

    I'm not saying it wasn't an intellectual process. But most Muslims simply can't embark on truly intellectual, objective and critical study of Islam without 'first' having something that slaps them out of the faith induced stupor that cripples their mind and blocks any honest objective appraisal of their faith..
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #11 - February 26, 2013, 05:56 PM

    I agree with you, Hassan.  For me it took an "emotional factor" jolt to be able to finally, thoroughly shake free from the religion.  I had somewhat understood, for years, that I was not a "text book" Muslim, but it was the emotional jolt (very long, painful story) that turned it into a full, honest and complete break off from Islam.  It had something to do with maintaining the last remnants of the person that I authentically was.  I had jumped through mental and emotional hoops for years trying to rationalize maintaining an identity that, at it's core, was 100% false.  When you lie to yourself over and over and over again, eventually your true self jumps up and fights back.  "Self preservation of the soul", we could call it?  Often times emotional pain is the springboard in these apostate situations.  I had manipulated the image of myself to the world so severely and so immensely, for so long, that I had reached a brick wall and ultimately it was the complete collapse of my "Muslim identity" ego that went.  I had no idea that bolstering up that false image of myself was actually causing me such tremendous pain....until it all just fell apart.

    Once I left that shell of a person behind and trusted myself again, that was the minute my life was reborn.  The answers are always inside of us...we just have to trust ourselves enough to listen to them.

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #12 - February 26, 2013, 06:08 PM

    That was great, Tabby. You practically took the words out of my mouth.

     There were definitely factors of an emotional nature that contributed to me openly leaving Islam, especially towards the end. But I think that initially and internally, it was more to do with cognitive dissonance. I knew that what I felt inside and what Islam said that I should feel were two very different things. I knew there were things in Islam (I’m specifically thinking more of a rigid salafi interpretation here) that I simply did not believe were correct. I did not spend much time trying to rationalize or reconcile what (salafi) Islam said with what I knew that I believed. Honestly, one of the things that attracted me most to salafi Islam was the fact that (at the time) I considered it to be uninterpreted and unfiltered through emotional and cultural bias. To me, Ad-da'watus-salafiyyah WAS Islam. When that understanding of Islam fell like a house of cards in my mind, there was no where else for me to turn.I knew that for at least three or four years before I openly left Islam, and perhaps it was that emotional connection that kept me hanging on.

    Eventually, it just became overwhelming. I could not continue to profess and call to something that I honestly did not believe in. That, coupled with a feeling of loneliness among Muslims and a feeling that if I mentioned any of this to the Muslims I loved it would spell the end anyway, eventually led me just to abruptly drop the whole thing.

    I think that had I not gotten so involved with (salafi) Islam to the point that I knew the arguments against the rationalizations I would have needed to make to keep the whole thing alive, there is a chance I would still be a Muslim. 
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #13 - February 26, 2013, 06:19 PM

    Mistake I was trying correct a spelling and hit quote by mistake
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #14 - February 26, 2013, 06:29 PM

    I agree with you, Hassan.  For me it took an "emotional factor" jolt to be able to finally, thoroughly shake free from the religion.


    But don't say that too loud as Muslims love to jump on anything and say "Aha! You see that's why they left Islam, because <insert emotional factor>"

    Yet truth is that our reason is swayed by our emotions and believers are as guilty if not more so.

    Though personally, I don't see emotion as a dirty word as some seem to, just so long as one is aware of it and can apply reason at the same time.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #15 - February 26, 2013, 06:31 PM

    Yeah, the more you try to rationalize and fill in the holes, the higher and higher you have to keep building the dam.  The truth is that the water (that doubting mind we have, and our common sense) never stopped flowing.  How does one hold up the dam and keep plugging the holes when life just keeps coming at you?  You simply can't do both.  Especially when you have children and you realize that this facade that you are trying so hard to buttress up, is actually a legacy of lies you are leaving them.  This is the spiritual and emotional legacy I was passing onto my children?  No way!  I feel so much better now that they have an authentic woman as a mother as opposed to someone who cow-towed and backed down, even in the face of her own best interests, common sense and logic.  It took me a while to NOT feel guilty about leaving Islam because I knew that had grown to become their identity as well as mine.  But ultimately I think (hope) it is going to be a very powerful lesson for them, on the art of being human.  I want them to know that life does not always fit neatly into boxes and categories.  There are grey areas, places that overlap, places where our "answers" do not always work...and that is OKAY.  Life is beautifully ambiguous and I want them to look at it with a sense of wonder and amazement...with appreciation.  Not someone who has to "mow it down" mentally, compartmentalize it, morph it until it fits comfortably into "their" idea of how it should be.

    I hope I can pass the tools onto them so they can accomplish that feat.

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #16 - February 26, 2013, 06:32 PM

    Hassan...I could care less what "they" think.  I spent far too many years doing that already.   Wink

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #17 - February 26, 2013, 06:34 PM

    But I think that initially and internally, it was more to do with cognitive dissonance. I knew that what I felt inside and what Islam said that I should feel were two very different things.


    Yes very good point. Without doubt any intelligent Muslim is struggling with cognitive dissonance and compartmentalising things into different boxes so they don't ignite and blow the roof off.

    I think there is a point I eventually reached when the walls began to leak then flood and collapse.

    I can even remember a point when I said to myself - during a debate with the notorious Ali Sina - that I was going to stop this knee jerk defensiveness and dodging and excusing and be honest with myself as much as with Ali. I had always valued honesty and believed I was myself a very honest and fair minded person. When I did this, instead of arguing for the sake of arguing I began to see the stupidity of what I believed very clearly.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #18 - February 26, 2013, 06:35 PM

    Btw please excuse all the stupid spellings. I'm not going to try to correct them any more.

    It's my fucking ipad


    It's really pissing me off.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #19 - February 26, 2013, 06:36 PM

    GOD bless EMOTIONS!  I fu**ing love them and hate the fact that I tried so hard to fight them for so many years.

    As my therapist once said "it certainly  is hard to be an automaton for so long, when you really are a human, isn't it  Ha!

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #20 - February 26, 2013, 06:40 PM

    The main emotional wall was that I cared for human life. When I saw suicide bombers, heard sermons of war and conflict. It always hurt me to see people not getting on no matter the difference. The hateful and distrustful enviroment the clergy breeded contradicted my experiences with those of other backgrounds where the majority o my freinds were non muslim. When I took my rose tinted glasses off it just became apparent that Islam made it difficult from its core to coexist with other ideologies.

    Also the concept of afterlife made muslims to be careless with this life. I remember situations when I was picking litter up and putting in dustbin in public. the muslim reaction was that why bother with this world when the next life is better. Really is a shitty world view and never sat well for me.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #21 - February 26, 2013, 06:44 PM

    Btw please excuse all the stupid spellings. I'm not going to try to correct them any more.

    It's my fucking ipad


    It's really pissing me off.



    Haha...That's how I feel about my phone sometimes!
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #22 - February 26, 2013, 06:48 PM

    I was working in an Islamic school during 911 and subsequent terrorist attacks and while most were of course aghast and condemned them, it was also a time that I observed a very worrying amount of cognitive dissonance - what I called "Denial, anger & blame".

    Im sure most of you here recognise that reaction. They shut out reality, deny it, like its not happening, get angry if you point it out and when pushed they will blame everyone else... Anything... Just so long as they avoid any introspection.

    It was a time that made me think deeply.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #23 - February 26, 2013, 06:54 PM

    Ye the denial and blaming others is never too far muslim mouths.

    What would be a good way of promoting self criticism among muslims. I see it as most effective way to see changes.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #24 - February 26, 2013, 06:56 PM

    Yes  Hassan.  Post 9-11 was a case study, in my mind, of which Muslims actually still had a HEART and which ones didn't!

    I remember going to muslim lecture after muslim lecture post 9-11 and getting hand-outs passed to me with conspiratorial articles galore!!  What always struck me as funny was that the Muslims who were screaming "Muslims did NOT DO 9-11!" were EXACTLY THE TYPE OF MUSLIMS WHO I COULD IMAGINE PULLING OFF A 9-11 STYLE ATTACK.  With their seething hatred of kuffar, Jews, government....LOL.  The people who were denying it were actually quite the posterboys for "the archetype" of a terrorist if you ask me!

    It was definitely an interesting time back then.  Oy, was it crazy!

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #25 - February 26, 2013, 06:57 PM

    9/11 must have been a strong catalyst for any western Muslim towards a new stage in their faith. For me, it is what drove me even more into the Saudi style of Salafism. I was intrigued at the way that the Saudi scholars used very traditional arguments to combat and refute jihdist ideology. The history of the khawarij, the conditions for takfeer, the importance of the call to tawheed as opposed to the call to jihad—all of those arguments had a profound impact on me. The scholars that I began to admire ofr their work against the jihadists are numerous. I felt that there was a legitimate, traditional, orthodox rebuttal to Jihadist ideology. It wasn’t until I started to notice all of the other problems that come along with a literal salafi interpretation of Islam that I began to seriously doubt it (coupled with the fact that the Saudi/Wahabbis were themselves takfiri jihadis until it began to back fire).

    Anyway…gotta run to a meeting…look forward to continuing the discussion and posting  more later.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #26 - February 26, 2013, 07:03 PM

    I also think it is easier to defend things like Hell when the issue seems distant and impersonal.

    But if that barrier is ever breached it will hit you like a hammer.

    I remember aft my dad's funeral sitting in his house with all my family gathered. We started reciting Quran and passing it from one to the other to recite some verses. Mine just so happened to be some awful ones describing the horrors of Hell. (Not hard they are plentiful). I began to cry and paused trying to stop. Then started reading again but broke down again.. Paused again... Then tried again and broke down again... Eventually one of my brothers took the Quran from me and began reciting.

    Everyone said I was distraught at my fathers death which was true of course, but what they didn't know was it was the horrible words I was reading - and in the context of my father passing on. The horror had just struck me like a sledge hammer. But rather than making me think, oh I must be a good Muslim, I though this is fucking insane,
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #27 - February 26, 2013, 07:05 PM

    I remember going to muslim lecture after muslim lecture post 9-11 and getting hand-outs passed to me with conspiratorial articles galore!!  What always struck me as funny was that the Muslims who were screaming "Muslims did NOT DO 9-11!" were EXACTLY THE TYPE OF MUSLIMS WHO I COULD IMAGINE PULLING OFF A 9-11 STYLE ATTACK.  With their seething hatred of kuffar, Jews, government....LOL.  The people who were denying it were actually quite the posterboys for "the archetype" of a terrorist if you ask me!!


    Rofl Yes it was like a farce that was insanely obvious to me yet others just couldn't see how transparent they were being.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #28 - February 26, 2013, 07:07 PM

    9/11 must have been a strong catalyst for any western Muslim towards a new stage in their faith. For me, it is what drove me even more into the Saudi style of Salafism. I was intrigued at the way that the Saudi scholars used very traditional arguments to combat and refute jihdist ideology. The history of the khawarij, the conditions for takfeer, the importance of the call to tawheed as opposed to the call to jihad—all of those arguments had a profound impact on me. The scholars that I began to admire ofr their work against the jihadists are numerous. I felt that there was a legitimate, traditional, orthodox rebuttal to Jihadist ideology. It wasn’t until I started to notice all of the other problems that come along with a literal salafi interpretation of Islam that I began to seriously doubt it (coupled with the fact that the Saudi/Wahabbis were themselves takfiri jihadis until it began to back fire).

    Anyway…gotta run to a meeting…look forward to continuing the discussion and posting  more later.



    Yes at first it turned me into a reformist. Ha! And that was the nail in the coffin lol
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #29 - February 26, 2013, 07:29 PM

    happymurtad...you were a scholar?
    That's a lie, right? :p
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »