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 Topic: Racism among fellow Muslims

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  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     OP - April 01, 2013, 03:00 PM

    I'm not sure if this topic has been discussed before. But something I was curious to know about. Islam claims it unites all people regardless of race, which is why it's so peaceful and the best religion. There are all kinds of Muslims around the world. However, it seems that every race of Muslim practices Islam a little differently from the rest. Or has a different social views. For example secular Malaysians versus fundamentalist Pakistanis. Or race, such as the white convert versus the black convert.

    Can anyone elaborate their views on this.

    1. In different Islamic countries/ communities how do they treat other Muslims of a different race/ethnicity.
    2. Any personal experiences based on your race about how you were treated? Better, Neutral, or Looked down on.
    3. Are racial tensions in Islam, out in the open or silent?
    4. How does marriage between Muslims of different races work out? In some cases does being Muslim take priority or does race?
    5. Or is racism not that big a deal and Muslims see everyone as family and equal.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #1 - April 01, 2013, 03:40 PM

    Over all, the idea is that Muslims are supposed to be united, but they are still humans so yeah there is racism. Here is something you might find interesting: My experience with Western Muslims is that we all get along and racism is rare. The tension lies in sects a lot more, and even then, that is closeted.
    In the mid east, racism is strong and for example, an Iraqi Arab thinks they're better than a Kuwaiti Arab, and there is strong nationalism between each country. The more far the country is, the less comfortable people are about it. My family finds our pictures amazing because they see us hanging out with all sorts of people. One of my cousins could not believe that I have black friends. I thought his shock was a joke. I was shocked at his shock because I hadn't ever thought about it. They are so ignorant. I love living in a multicultural secular country so much. I feel so privileged and open minded compared to my family in the mid East.

    2. Any personal experiences based on your race about how you were treated? Better, Neutral, or Looked down on.
    Mid east, yep. Australia, no, not by Muslims (I've been called all sort of shit by racist bogans instead). My Afghan friend did tell me that in their culture, they do not like Arabs, but until she actually told me, I have never felt or noticed.

    3. Are racial tensions in Islam, out in the open or silent?
    Same as above...

    4. How does marriage between Muslims of different races work out? In some cases does being Muslim take priority or does race?
    Of course, Muslim takes priority over everything. When I look around here, almost all the young Muslims are interracially married. it has become so trendy! I absolutely LOVE it. It has been bad for some backwards families though. Eg. One example, my friends mum wont accept her husband because he is not Arab. She will go on with the wedding because she knows she is Islamically in the clear and her mum is wrong. The sheikh did her nikah and tried talking to her mum too, but yeah her mum wont accept a non Arab. I find that rare though. She is the only example that I can think of at the top of my head.


    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #2 - April 01, 2013, 03:45 PM

    Most of the time race isn't a big deal until a family member is marrying someone out of their race, my cousin married a white convert and he was excluded out of the family(it's a lot better now Smiley )

    Um I will be truthful I find that yes muslims are friendly towards others no matter what their race is. However one f the main problems I've encountered has been shadeism, you notice people tend to treat a lighter skin toned person better in the Somali community e.g people with lighter skintone being seen as more beautiful.

    An aunty of mine used to live in saudi and she said she encountered the worst kind of racism there and that they aren't that welcoming towards their fellow Africans.
     btw Im on my phone so excuse any spelling/autocorrect mistakes  Tongue
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #3 - April 01, 2013, 04:01 PM

    Shadeism? I never heard of that, but yeah, I found out about darker girls bleaching their skin and it made me sad Cry I wont judge though because most people want to have things done because of all these media images constantly hitting us in the face..

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #4 - April 01, 2013, 04:32 PM

    When you're being made to feel ugly and reminded how lighter skinned people are beautiful from the get go...it does affect your confidence until you come to rationalize it -even then, doesn't change the reality of how a lot of people react to you.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #5 - April 01, 2013, 05:09 PM

    Not sure about my family, but a family friend of ours (a Black, Muslim man) is married to a woman (Pakistani Muslim) who was disowned for marrying him.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #6 - April 01, 2013, 05:22 PM

    1. In different Islamic countries/ communities how do they treat other Muslims of a different race/ethnicity.

    In the Pakistani community, fair skinned muslims are seen as the crème de la crème. I mean it is a massive obsession that women go to great lengths altering the tone of their skins. The first thing the older generation ask off a prospective bride/groom is the fairness of her/his skin. A lot that I have met go as far as saying they are of persian or arab descent. Most pakistani men often equate arab/persian women as the pinacle of beauty. To the extent where saying a desi girls looks arab/persian is seen as the highest compliment.

    There is also a discrimination based on caste but it has moved away from that to more tribe like affiliation. For instance where I live there is quite a visible segregation between different tribes rajput, jatt etc. I know several members of my extended family would not allow marriage outside of rajput caste or would be a pain in the ass if it did happen by having cheap digs etc. Same applies to jatt and others.

    2. Any personal experiences based on your race about how you were treated? Better, Neutral, or Looked down on.

    Whenever caste discussions come up. I know a few friends who often teased for being gujjar. Most of this caste business is based on stereotypes, so the lower down you happen to be the more negative the stereotypes.

    A close friend of mine told me that Gujarati's do not like british pakistanis. I have to admit that british pakistanis of the mirpuri persuasion do have negative reputation with them (no offence to mirpuri users here). The majority of pakistanis in UK are from that region. I am guilty in the past of cracking jokes about that particular community which i am not proud of in the least.

    Are racial tensions in Islam, out in the open or silent?

    It is a lot more of an undercurrent, darker skinned individuals do get a lot of stick but I'm not sure if its encouraged somehow in Islam. For instance the whole noor on the face of pious believers and the sinners face will be darkened, does send a negative image. As a whole I do not think Islam is inherently racist but I could be wrong.

    I know in Asia atleast the racism is result of the old colonial and caste system.

    How does marriage between Muslims of different races work out? In some cases does being Muslim take priority or does race?

    Bieng muslim has become more important factor over the years. However the darker you are the more negativity you will have to put up with.

    Or is racism not that big a deal and Muslims see everyone as family and equal.

    From what I have seen sometimes the families do eventually get over it if the couple are muslims at the very least.

  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #7 - April 01, 2013, 05:50 PM

    ^^^ So when Pakistanis converted to Islam all those generations ago they kept the worst of Hinduism (caste system) and discarded the good stuff (philosophy etc)

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #8 - April 01, 2013, 05:57 PM

    Unfortunetly yes. It's not really as hardline as the hindus in India, but the whole system is definitely there in the background. The older generation are really involved with it but the positive thing is the younger generation don't seem as obsessive with it, except having a little banter here and there.

    I think the most useful thing I gained out this caste thing is tracing my ancestry back to a certian tribe and region. Other than the historical aspect, I find the rest of its application disgusting,
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #9 - April 01, 2013, 06:32 PM

    Hell yea it's racist. 

    I spent my entire muslim experience being told I was too dark.  As a child my parents tried to bleach my skin constantly, and tried to keep me out of the sun because as they never failed to tell me, I was going to be difficult to marry off because I was brown.

    I was also called "Aazeeya" in morocco all the time, which basically means blacky/darky. 

    Also my dad was always quite blatant about how I could marry any type of muslim convert, just not a black one.  And my dad is darker than me I might add.   Roll Eyes

    My ex would tell me all the time that on the day of judgement the devil would come with his army, and they would be blackened of face.....which he would then tell me was a clear sign that his army would be black.

    I have never been racist because of the attitude I was brought up with, all it did was make me fight them every step of the way.  I hate hate that has no reason. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #10 - April 01, 2013, 06:51 PM

    I really don’t understand the obsession with light skin. It was extremely disappointing to me as a black American to see exactly how racist the Muslim world was. I lived in the Gulf, which to me is a good representation of a cross section of the Muslim world. Saudi’s are, generally speaking, overtly racist and nationalist in the worst way. Same with other GCC countries.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #11 - April 01, 2013, 06:56 PM

    I don't understand it either tbh, I have been told before that a sign of poverty was darker skin because it meant you worked the field, whereas richer women were kept indoors, under shade, and behind veils so the fairer your wife looked, the richer it made you seem.  Much like in countries experiencing famine or with day to day food worries, the larger your wife was, the more wealthy you must be.

    Maybe it's left over from that as a mind set, either way as an explanation, it still really angers me. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #12 - April 01, 2013, 07:00 PM

    Honestly, and from a personal preference perspective, I find the dark reddish complexion of many Arab and Desi women extremely attractive. I remember the skin whitening products they sold in the Arab world, and I never understood the obsession.

    Even in photographs for passport pictures and such, they regularly lighten people’s complexion in photoshop. It seems completely insane to me.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #13 - April 01, 2013, 07:10 PM

    For myself I'd say I've grown into an attraction for women with darker skin.

    I was quite a self hater towards my own colour for most of my life Grin  guess that would be natural under that sort of pressure .  Its only now in my 30s that I love my colour, and am more attracted to non white women.

    Funnily enough though, it was only towards women that earlier sexual preference was for the fairer skin, with men it was the reverse, I guess that's because I was taught it was women being brown that made them less attractive, and since I found it easy to apply that standard to myself and find myself wanting, it was easy to view other women as the same. 

    Thankfully I'm over that coconut phase of self hate.  Grin

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #14 - April 01, 2013, 07:56 PM

    I was in an interracial marriage with a Beitish Bengali Muslim for 6 years and although his immediate family accepted me (white, already converted to Islam) many of his extended family both in the UK and back in Bangladesh disapproved of our union.

    When we would walk down the Curry Mile most of the Asians would blatantly stare at us. We did make an odd match; me being tall and quite fair and him being shorter and quite dark.

    When I visited Pakistan 10 years ago the women in the village where I was staying constantly commented on my complexion and needless to say, I got several Marrige proposals. 

    Back to my in-laws, my MIL used to cry over how dark her eldest daughter was and how difficult it would be for her to find a husband being so dark.

    Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

    The sleeper has awakened -  Dune

    Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish!
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #15 - April 01, 2013, 08:19 PM

    Honestly, and from a personal preference perspective, I find the dark reddish complexion of many Arab and Desi women extremely attractive. I remember the skin whitening products they sold in the Arab world, and I never understood the obsession.

    Even in photographs for passport pictures and such, they regularly lighten people’s complexion in photoshop. It seems completely insane to me.

    Humans are a bit nutty. Seems whatever they're like, they'll want to be different. Roll Eyes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #16 - April 02, 2013, 04:23 AM

    Oh interesting responses thanks for sharing Smiley

    I for one love my dark skin, because I don't get sunburned B)

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #17 - April 02, 2013, 04:28 AM

    I really don’t understand the obsession with light skin. It was extremely disappointing to me as a black American to see exactly how racist the Muslim world was. I lived in the Gulf, which to me is a good representation of a cross section of the Muslim world. Saudi’s are, generally speaking, overtly racist and nationalist in the worst way. Same with other GCC countries.


    it's not a muslim thing but a general trend in the indian subcontinent and possibly the world over. in india it doesn't matter if you're hindu or muslim - darker girls are considered less attractive by EVERYONE. this is probably due to decades of british colonial rule and modern western cultural dominance the world over.  

    The right to think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenge the unchallengeable.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #18 - April 02, 2013, 04:38 AM

    Hell yea it's racist. 

    I spent my entire muslim experience being told I was too dark.  As a child my parents tried to bleach my skin constantly, and tried to keep me out of the sun because as they never failed to tell me, I was going to be difficult to marry off because I was brown.

    I was also called "Aazeeya" in morocco all the time, which basically means blacky/darky. 

    Also my dad was always quite blatant about how I could marry any type of muslim convert, just not a black one.  And my dad is darker than me I might add.   Roll Eyes

    My ex would tell me all the time that on the day of judgement the devil would come with his army, and they would be blackened of face.....which he would then tell me was a clear sign that his army would be black.

    I have never been racist because of the attitude I was brought up with, all it did was make me fight them every step of the way.  I hate hate that has no reason. 


    during the times of slavery in the US, pastors were using the bible to justify discrimination against black people. there is apparently a story in the bible about a prophet who made god turn a guy's skin black because he committed a sin - implying that black people are the children of that first "blackened" guy, thus they're condemned children.

    in regards to islam, one of the first converts was a black man, he used to do the azaan, forgot his name. but i remember there being a hadith where mohammed described him as a "raisin head".

    The right to think the unthinkable, discuss the unmentionable, and challenge the unchallengeable.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #19 - April 02, 2013, 05:53 AM

    lol raisin head Cheesy Was that supposed to be an insult because raisins are umm "dark" or because they're mushy? It's a weird thing to call someone o.O It was Bilal btw.

    So far, the comment that made racism exclusively related to Islam was the whole "noor" thing. The idea that your heart blackens with sins and you light up with "noor" (glow?) when you are "good". That seems to justify the whole love of lighter skin wacko

    Apart from that, I believe the platform we have in the West allows us to mostly think past race, just because we live with everyone and conditioned to be that way. I bet if I was raised in Iraq I might going around calling other Arabs raisin heads or something  Cheesy

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #20 - April 02, 2013, 07:20 AM

    I don't see those here, frankly it's much more mixed scenario, mixed marriages, it's confusing!

    When I'd see them in racial perspective,

    I would say to myself

    "hey! that's my cousins, niece, uncle, auntie and so on and on"

    I like that aspect of Islam or maybe it's culturally implemented, or is it because my world is too small,

    dunno.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #21 - April 02, 2013, 07:50 AM

    For myself I'd say I've grown into an attraction for women with darker skin.

    I was quite a self hater towards my own colour for most of my life Grin  guess that would be natural under that sort of pressure .  Its only now in my 30s that I love my colour, and am more attracted to non white women.

    Funnily enough though, it was only towards women that earlier sexual preference was for the fairer skin, with men it was the reverse, I guess that's because I was taught it was women being brown that made them less attractive, and since I found it easy to apply that standard to myself and find myself wanting, it was easy to view other women as the same. 

    Thankfully I'm over that coconut phase of self hate.  Grin


    Cheesy This entire post just flabbergasted me.

    And I am very :( in response to the bolded part.

    To respond to this thread in general - I heard that we are all racist to some degree whether we know it or not, so I suppose we can't feel guilty about it.

    I've always had a tendency toward white men - for the most part - ever since I was very young (age 5). I don't know what it is, but being with someone who looks similar to me - or has dark brown/eyes, whether they are Latino or a fellow Egyptian, never did it for me. It almost feels brotherly. No... it is brotherly.

    I used to laugh at my Mexican girl friend when she lightheartedly told me that she has this 'strict' policy to not date any Mexicans - which she claimed since Mexicans come from huge families, she wouldn't want to accidentally sleep with a distant relative Grin and now I practically feel the same way about my own kind, albeit not for that silly reason. Tongue

    It's probably a mix of a complex (I also got the same thing Berbs - where being a "brown" - for me that's an inside mentality - or being a "Muslim woman" that somehow I wasn't "good enough" for White men or that they won't be attracted to me lol) for me, versus very early exposure, wanting the complete opposite of what my father looks like, and desiring something foreign... and simply, just finding that the men that turn me on the most tend to be the cliche blonde hair/blue-green eyes. It wasn't always like that either. I've liked the brown-haired-White-man too. Grin (but lately, a particular blond and green eyes man has my heart anyway:)

    And yes, of course I've been attracted to a variety of different looks and ethnicities - my first kiss was Mexican, and I was very deeply attracted to him at the time. He's now engaged, and I'm no longer attracted to him - because of reasons of why we fell thru - but also, my tastes have changed - and I see a trend lately.

    This has been on my mind lately. A white girl friend of mine exclusively dates non-whites. She's had several Hispanic boyfriends in the past, and now she has an Asian boyfriend. We discussed why that is - and it's funny because we're opposites in who we're attracted to. A white male friend of mine is just the same way - he likes Filipinos, Latinas, Middle Eastern.... etc. He actually just recently got a new girlfriend and she's...surprise, Puerto Rican. My girl friend tried to explain this to me - why she doesn't seem to be attracted to white men - and she said something like, she expects them to be the douche-y boy-next-door All-American type, and she's just not into that.
    If both my friends are anything like me and have my same "reasoning" as to why we like who we like, it seems to be that is those we aren't attracted to resemble us too much, whether physically or culturally etc, that we can't like them because it's too familial.

    Anyway, didn't mean to stir this topic towards interracial dating... but there you go.

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #22 - April 02, 2013, 08:09 AM

    My Egyptian parents have always told me and my siblings we could marry whoever we wanted as long as he's a Muslim male of course. Grin
    My dad was the one who was big on spouting how supposedly non-racist he is - emphasizing that he won't care about the race... whereas my mom, not so much.

    But me and my sisters could tell that they both ideally wanted us to end with Egyptian men (so far, none of us have Grin - and I definitely won't lol) - but they posed it to us as more of a cultural preference - that is, that they make the assumption they would get along better with them simply because being from the same country they would understand and relate on that level - rather than a racial preference.
    I'm not sure I buy that, though.

    I don't really care. It's not happening for me.

    Luckily, my other sister is single again - and she's actually the most cultural/religious one out of us all, and prefers an Egyptian herself so there's hope left in her! I'm off the hook even more, hopefully! Tongue

    I think my parents can just tell - especially my mother. How good her perception is creeps me out sometimes, because it means I can't even lie around her. My mother knows I'm attracted to white men, and basically that I'm an atheist, so hopefully this means both of them have given up on me. Grin

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #23 - April 02, 2013, 08:13 AM

    Dis so racist.
    I don't see those here, frankly it's much more mixed scenario, mixed marriages, it's confusing!

    When I'd see them in racial perspective,

    I would say to myself

    "hey! that's my cousins, niece, uncle, auntie and so on and on"

    I like that aspect of Islam or maybe it's culturally implemented, or is it because my world is too small,

    dunno.


    But Islam only promotes this "non-racist" attitude mostly because it wants to grow the number of Muslims... right?
    I don't really feel like it comes from a genuine place. Not that I think most of what's in the religion is genuine. But this one aspect almost seems purposefully devised for that. Like, of course they don't care about race - but get your spouse-to-be to convert, and wa-laa! All is well!

    Rather be forgotten than remembered for giving in.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #24 - April 02, 2013, 08:42 AM

    What is it about blue eyes?  Are there not Afghani people with blue eyes?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #25 - April 02, 2013, 09:10 AM

    Dis so racist.
    But Islam only promotes this "non-racist" attitude mostly because it wants to grow the number of Muslims... right?
    I don't really feel like it comes from a genuine place. Not that I think most of what's in the religion is genuine. But this one aspect almost seems purposefully devised for that. Like, of course they don't care about race - but get your spouse-to-be to convert, and wa-laa! All is well!


    religion propagate racism...
    yeah.. I kinda get that vibes.

    It's just me seeing it in historical context.
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #26 - April 02, 2013, 10:10 AM

    I have heard from family members who live in Saudi that they are pretty racist over there.  Also, a friend of mine in the military once told me that during his stay in Kuwait some guy was telling him how the Europeans had told the arabs that blacks were monkeys and had tails.   finmad

    That wasn't what actually made me mad, what made me made is the fact that in Kuwait they have a black population that used to be slaves workers etc and they know damn well they don't have tails!    finmad



     
     

    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #27 - April 02, 2013, 10:18 AM

    religion propagate racism...
    yeah.. I kinda get that vibes.

    It's just me seeing it in historical context.

     
    Historically, I mean, Hindus, Buddhist, Christian, Islam in that order, I'm just a simpleton.

    What is it about blue eyes?  Are there not Afghani people with blue eyes?


    genetic make up maybe, dominant allele, I'm not sure on that, I do ask my optometrist for red contact lenses.

  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #28 - April 02, 2013, 12:37 PM

    Ah, I mean we all know there is racism everywhere. The reason I brought this up is because I've occasionally come across propaganda where it says  Islam unites all people. Especially with that story of Bilal towards blacks, to make it seem racism is only tied to Christians and not in Islam to entice more converts. And I'm thinking that's just BS.

    As for marriage I don't see being attracted to certain kinds of people racist. Everyone has romantic preferences sometimes right down to hair, eyes, and other characteristics besides skin.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Racism among fellow Muslims
     Reply #29 - April 02, 2013, 01:02 PM

    Everyone has romantic preferences

    Don't you mean sexual preferences?


    (And yes, I have them.)
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