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Theme Changer

 Topic: What’s a 'Cultural Muslim'?

 (Read 9332 times)
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  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #30 - May 05, 2013, 08:12 PM

    Two broader questions come to mind when I think of this topic. Number one, what does it mean to be a Muslim? And number two, why would one want to identify with Islam?

    Question number one has been debated literally since the first days after the prophet's death. Abu Bakr concluded that people who did not pay zakat were not muslims. The khawarij concluded that people who committed major sins were not muslims. The sunni establishment asserted that the shia and many sufis were not muslims.

    While I tend to think a majority of muslims would agree that at least some sort of recognition of the five pillars is required to make someone a Muslim, I am comfortable now applying the term to anyone who actively wants to be known as a Muslim.

    And this brings me to my second question: why would someone want to identify with Islam? There may be family reasons. There may be cultural reasons. But I think that whatever the reasons, one should not be at odds with the very ideas that make up what we have come to know as Islam.

    I think that it is unnecessary to call yourself a cultural Muslim simply because you still enjoy or participate in things that muslims enjoy or participate in. I celebrate Halloween, but I am not a "cultural Celtic." I plan on drinking tequila and eating chimmy chongas tonight for cinco de mayo, but I am not a "cultural Mexican."

    And there is nothing inherently wrong with being a Mexican or a Celtic, or a Muslim for that matter. I just find it unnecessary and unhelpful for me, an outspoken critic of most Islamic teachings, to identify myself with a word as loaded as the word Muslim, even if only culturally.
  • What’s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #31 - May 05, 2013, 08:18 PM

    Quote
    Jewishness was not always an ethnicity. It was, arguably, European anti-semitism that made it so. Race and ethnicity are all socially constructed and historically situated in particular contexts. A thousand years ago, there was no such thing as a Jew who doesn't believe in the God of the Old Testament/Torah. Over time, Jewishness became dissociated from Judaism because those who hated Jews hated them regardless of whether the people from Jewish families believed in the Jewish religion or not.

    Similarly, Muslim identity may get divorced from Islam if things follow a similar trajectory.


    I don't see that happening. Ever. 
    I don't think the two are comparable at all. Islam is very clear on apostasy -- it is not allowed, it and anything that can lead to it is to be stamped out and fought if necessary; there's also takfir and declaring self-identifying Muslims as kuffar or munafiq or "weak" Muslims or whatever else. A Muslim convert is more Muslim than a Muslim from a religious Muslim family who no longer believes in God. In fact, the latter is not Muslim at all, while the convert -- if he/she is practicing -- is 100% Muslim. 

    In Judaism, there's no punishment for apostasy to begin with (there's also no hell) and there's also the notion that Jewishness is inherited matrilineally, rather than tied solely to belief. Converting to Judaism is a drawn out process that can often last years, and some rabbis even outright discourage potential converts; a convert is required to know Hebrew and understand various rules and rituals to be allowed to convert and become fully Jewish, whereas someone like Bill Maher can call himself a Jew (because his mother was one) and would be considered one halachically without knowing a thing about the religion. There's a lot more to it than European anti-semitism. 
  • What’s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #32 - May 05, 2013, 08:31 PM

    You're talking about how things are now. I'm talking about how they became that way over centuries. I recommend reading historical books and studies on Jewish history and identity from multiple perspectives. I have found it to be extremely fascinating.

    E.g. here's one perspective:



    Love, Hate, and Jewish Identity
    Jonathan Sacks

    On its face, the subject of Judaism and Jewish identity should not count for much in the world. There are worldwide some 1.9 billion Christians and 800 million Muslims, as against a mere twelve million Jews. Throughout the Diaspora, Jews are a tiny minority surrounded by large non-Jewish cultures. In the Middle East, Israel is a tiny country surrounded by a vast constellation of Arab states. We are less than a quarter of a percent of the population of the world. In terms of numbers our influence should be minimal.

    Yet I dare to say that Jews and Judaism are of interest and even influence in a way that cannot be accounted for in terms of numbers alone. No one put this better than the American writer Milton Himmelfarb, who said: “Each Jew knows how thoroughly ordinary he is; yet taken together we seem caught up in things great and inexplicable. . . . The number of Jews in the world is smaller than a small statistical error in the Chinese census. Yet we remain bigger than our numbers. Big things seem to happen around us and to us.”

    Let me begin my account, if not at the beginning of Jewish time, at least at the beginning of modern Jewish time: 1789, the year of the French Revolution and the birth of the modern secular nation-state. On August 26 the French National Assembly issued its Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, with its ringing opening assertion, “All men are born, and remain, free and equal in rights.” The question was: Did that include Jews? Were Jews free? Were they equal? Were they citizens? Were they men?

    The questions were real. At the very time of the Declaration anti-Jewish riots broke out in Alsace, the first and ominous indication that the secular nation-state might not end anti-Jewish sentiment, but merely secularize it into a new mode, to be given (in 1879) the name “anti-Semitism.” Later in 1789, speaking in a debate on the eligibility of Jews for citizenship, the Count of Clermont-Tonnerre spelled out in a fateful sentence the terms on which Jews could be included in the new political dispensation. “The Jews,” he said, “should be denied everything as a nation, but granted everything as individuals.” “It is intolerable,” he continued, “that the Jews should become a separate political formation or class within the country. Every one of them must individually become a citizen; if they do not want this, they must inform us and we shall then be compelled to expel them.”

    Thus was born what eventually became known as der Judenfrage, the “Jewish question,” whose relatively innocent formulation gave rise, in 1941, to the Endlosung, the Final Solution. The theory and terminology came from Germany. Some of the mythology, specifically the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, came from Russia. But it was in France, a century after the Revolution, that a Viennese journalist, Theodore Herzl, covering the Dreyfus trial, came to the conclusion that there was no future for the Jews in Europe and that the secular nation-state, far from ending anti-Semitism, had in fact given it a new and potentially terrible rebirth; and that there was no future for the Jewish people unless they constructed a nation-state of their own.

    I go back to 1789 because contemporary discussions of Jewish life—issues like outmarriage, Jewish continuity, and Israel-Diaspora relations—often seem to me to lack depth because they lack a sense of historical background. And there is an historical reason for this, namely, that the world's two greatest Jewries, Israel and the American Jewish community, are themselves relatively recent phenomena. Until 1840, almost 90 percent of the Jewish world was to be found in Europe. Even more significantly, the Jews who made the journey to America or Israel did so precisely to forget Europe, to break away from its prejudices and disabilities, and to discover, or make, a new life in a new world. The strange contemporary blindness to Jewish history was born in a specific rebellion against Jewish history—a history that could be written in terms of wanderings and expulsions, inquisitions and pogroms, martyrdoms and exclusions, the powerlessness and homelessness of “the wandering Jew.”

    It is for this reason that we cannot understand where we are unless we first understand how we came to be here. Israel cannot be understood as simply a secular democratic state on the European model, or American Jewry as a typical version of American pluralism and denominationalism. These are part, but only part, of the Jewish story. The Israeli and American Jewish communities still carry within them the pains and tensions of the European Jewish experience, and even today they are shaped by what they were created to forget.

    The modern Jewish experience was characterized by two phenomena. The first is that Jews were, to use John Murray Cuddihy's phrase, “latecomers to modernity.” There was no long pre-history, such as occurred in Christian Europe, of Renaissance, Reformation, the Wars of Religion, and the birth of Enlightenment. Jews were thrust late into a complex set of challenges—the intellectual challenge of Enlightenment, the political challenge of Emancipation, and the social challenge of integration. What Jews believed, how they lived, and how they organized themselves came under sudden and concerted attack—sometimes in the name of progress, sometimes in the form of prejudice—and after centuries of exclusion from the mainstream of European culture they were radically unprepared for it. This alone would have constituted a crisis of massive proportions for the continuity of Jewish faith.

    It was, nonetheless, the lesser of two crises. The other, whose significance it is impossible to overstate, was the double bind modernity itself placed on European Jews, giving rise to the phenomenon eventually termed “Jewish self-hatred.” The results were summed up by Max Nordau in his speech to the First Zionist Congress. The “emancipated Jew in Western Europe,” he said, “has abandoned his specifically Jewish character, yet the nations do not accept him as part of their national communities. He flees from his Jewish fellows, because anti-Semitism has taught him, too, to be contemptuous of them, but his Gentile compatriots repulse him as he attempts to associate with them. He has lost his home in the ghetto, yet the land of his birth is denied to him as his home.” Much has changed since those words were spoken a hundred years ago, but we still live with their consequences.

    The Enlightenment presented European Jews with a messianic promise and a demonic reality. The promise was a secular and rational order in which anti-Jewish prejudice would be overcome and Jewish civil disabilities abolished. The reality was that the more Jews became like everyone else, the more irrational and absolute became the prejudice against them: they were capitalists, they were communists, they were too provincial and parochial, they were too rootless and cosmopolitan, they kept to themselves, they got everywhere, they were disloyal, they were suspiciously over-loyal. The more assimilated they became, the more anti-Semitism grew.

    The history of nineteenth-century Jewry is the tale of a dozen different attempts to find a way out of this trap from which there was no way out. The extreme response was a flight from Jewish identity through outmarriage, conversion to Christianity, or, wherever possible, the declaration that one was religionless. Among those who shrank from the conclusion that Jews could survive only by ceasing to be Jews, there was significant difference between Western and Eastern Europe. The Count of Clermont-Tonnerre had asked Jews to decide whether they were individuals or a nation—in other words, whether Judaism was a private religious confession or whether Jewry was essentially a collective entity, a people. Historically, of course, the answer was both; but the new European nation-state no longer permitted that reply.

    In general, the Jews of Western Europe decided in favor of Judaism as religion-without-peoplehood, those of Eastern Europe in favor of Jewry as peoplehood-without-religion. Hence there emerged in the nineteenth century a set of entirely new constructions of Jewish identity: in the West, Reform and Conservative Judaism, in the East, the movements for Jewish culture and even political autonomy in the Pale of Settlement. As these failed in their aims of normalizing Jewish existence, there emerged perhaps the greatest revolution in modern Jewish life, the Zionist movement, less an ideology than a collection of conflicting ideologies, some secular, some religious, some political, some cultural, some attempting to restore ancient traditions, others determined to destroy them completely and build a totally new kind of Jew.

    The First Zionist Congress took place in 1897. A century later, we inhabit a Jewish world in which in one sense everything has changed, and in another, nothing has changed. During the twentieth century, some of the most epic events in Jewish history have taken place: the Holocaust, the founding of the State of Israel, and the transfer of Jewish life from Europe to Israel and America. But the divisions in Jewish life today are almost exactly what they were a hundred years ago—between religious and secular, between Orthodoxy and Reform, and between those who see a Jewish future only in Israel and those who see a continuing role for the Diaspora. Between the first and the eighteenth centuries, with very few exceptions, a single Judaism prevailed—the Judaism of the Mishnah and Talmud that today we call Orthodoxy. In the twentieth century, there has been no new Judaism. Even the apparent exception, the Reconstructionism of Mordecai Kaplan, was only a translation into the American context of the earlier ideas of Ahad Ha-am. So the immense diversity of answers to the question “Who and what is a Jew?” all had their origin in a single century and continent: nineteenth-century Europe.

    In 1897, Orthodox Jews believed that Reform would disappear: it was only a way-station on the road to total assimilation. Reform Jews believed that Orthodoxy would disappear: it was wholly incongruous with the modern world. Zionists believed the Diaspora would disappear: it was threatened equally by seduction and rape, assimilation and anti-Semitism. The non-Zionists believed that the hope of Jewish nationhood would disappear: the task of reviving an impulse buried for eighteen centuries was simply too great. We now know that every one of these predictions was wrong. Reform Judaism still exists. So does Orthodoxy. The state of Israel has been born. The Diaspora survives. Every option in Jewish life then exists today, and history has not yet delivered its verdict on any of them. The conflicts that, it was believed, would be resolved in the course of time have simply persisted and if anything grown in their intensity.

    Source



    Here are some more:

    Boundaries of Jewish Identity

    Jewish identity: a social psychological perspective

    The Other in Jewish Thought and History: Constructions of Jewish Culture and Identity

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #33 - May 05, 2013, 09:46 PM

    That's a good article. Nothing is set in stone, and it doesn't matter what scriptures say --people will identify how they want and the religious will always tell them they're not part of blabla.
    I have been called kafir (for being a filthy Jewish-inspired shirkful Shia, oh noes!) by Muslims forever and it never stopped me from strongly believing I was following Allah and all that shit so yeah. The article shows the historical circumstances under which those guys were even given this platform to discuss (fight:P).
    Some state that being slapped with the Jew label is anti semitic, while others swear it's passed on by a Jewish mother. But on that note, I agree that being told you are something that you don't wanna be known as is annoying!
    Having a platform for Muslims to call themselves anything they want, as in the title already exists, and some kid doesn't have to invent it themselves, is so important in my opinion. If the term "cultural Muslim" spreads, it is a less threatening path to non religiousness.

    If it doesn't exist and we keep shutting it down by shoving a false dichotomy in their face, we will suppress any kind of further creativity. "You're Muslim or you're not!" It's a platform, if anything and allows for safe transition or dilly dallying, depending on the person.


    ***********************************************************************************************
    "Dad I'm going to the cultural Muslims meeting at uni"
    "Aren't those the people who celebrate gays and think it's ok to drink? finmad"
    "Yes dad, but aren;t you happy I'm involved in a Muslim group?"

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #34 - May 05, 2013, 10:45 PM

    People can talk about self identifying as a cultural Muslim as they like, but the people resisting the notion that you can repudiate the existence of Allah, reject the Quran and deny Muhammad as a prophet and still fall under the umbrella of being Muslim are Muslims themselves.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #35 - May 05, 2013, 10:58 PM

    I wonder if we can start getting western liberal practicing muslims to start referring to themselves as "cultural kafirs."
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #36 - May 05, 2013, 10:59 PM

     Cheesy Now that would be a coup.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #37 - May 05, 2013, 11:05 PM

    Oh yeah, while I think of it....

    Weddings are huge parties completely separate from the actual marriage ceremony in our culture, so anyone -- including non-Muslims -- can attend a wedding, which is a cultural (not religious) celebration; women don't attend funerals and why would I want to attend something like jum'a? The only thing I wouldn't want to miss is Eid (and perhaps Ramadan feasts) and even then it's only because it's a family gathering, I get Eid money and there's what I call "Eid cheer" in the air (oh, and there's food!), a bit like Christmas is for Westerners.

    I'm into the Christmas thing, and just about any other excuse for a celebration, and I think it's actually quite healthy for society to have a time that is (supposedly) dedicated to being less of an asshole than most of the year. I wouldn't call myself "cultural Christian" though, simply because I'm not Christian. Not that I really mind what anyone else calls themselves, but I do think it's a bit odd to claim "cultural" membership of a religious doctrine, if ya know what I mean.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #38 - May 05, 2013, 11:11 PM

    People can call themselves cultural Christians because Christianity doesn't stop people leaving it in the way that Islam does. Christianity (because of secularism and reform) has porous borders and doors from which one can walk in and walk out. You can even walk in for a little while, fill your boots with what you like and then leave again. There is a laissez faire aspect to modern Christianity in secular liberal socities.

    Its different with Islam at the moment.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #39 - May 05, 2013, 11:12 PM

    Yes I realise that. My point is that, personally, I'd think it odd to claim membership of a religion, even tangentially, when I didn't believe in said religion. YMMV. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #40 - May 06, 2013, 12:09 AM

    However, at the same time, the pros include the fact that once being 'Muslim' is no longer seen as having to submit to Islam as a religion, it opens up the space for many more 'Muslims' to question aspects of Islam without feeling like they're betraying 'their identity'.


    The essence of that "pro" comes from the fact that severely reformed monotheistic religions are more tolerant towards apostasy than say, Islam. The racialization is a consequence of reform but not the other way around.

    This is for the factual bits.

    Now, we could speculate about whether there's still time for Islam to outgrow its totalitarian roots. Or, for that matter, if it's even feasible given the fact that the Quran is quite explicit in many passages (when it comes to female inheritance for example). I don't think Muslims will be able in a couple of generations to pull off what Judaism and Christianity have done in many centuries. And by then, atheism will become the universal default position. Of course, it could also be that I'm overly optimistic bordering on the naive.
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #41 - May 06, 2013, 03:05 AM

    Yes I realise that. My point is that, personally, I'd think it odd to claim membership of a religion, even tangentially, when I didn't believe in said religion. YMMV. Smiley

    Only cause you'll never need to and the idea is dumb to you. But when you start looking for the weakest type of Islam to follow, like hmm should I tell my parents I converted to sufism to get out of hijab, then yeah you're in that mindset. You look for what's available to ease out.
    Shia is also like that where you can never get out of it according to them since they love to crawl under your skin and control your thoughts. My pilates class next week is for "Shias only'!!!! (as written in the rules) ...yeah, how discriminatory. So I am recognised as one of them and I will be allowed in. I'm not gonna label myself as culturally shia to them, but I don't believe anything anymore, I would classify as cultural. If it wouldn't cause serious questions (like the time I told my parents I wanna be sufi and got a mouthful) then it would be a label to consider to get out of the worship stuff instead of full on pretending.

    Btw there is one Aussie  lady I know who wears hijab. She's not even a convert, she wore it after meeting my gfs at uni and believed them when they told her it stops men from looking. And I guess it works for her. But when my mum met her (I thought my mum would be pleased), she told her to stop tainting Islam and what she's doing is wrong. So yeah I see how it wont be accepted to simply be cultural but neither does being gay or being anything.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #42 - May 06, 2013, 03:15 PM

    I would view myself as culturally Indian Muslim.

    It's as good a term as any other to define the culture I follow.
    I am Indian by descent, but the Islam in the community has basically removed many of the Indian elements.

    The only holidays I've ever celebrated and continue to celebrate have been the Muslim Eids.  Sorry, I don't have enough of a Christian family or community to celebrate Christmas or others.
    The only spiritual aspects I've ever practiced have been the Muslim prayers, and the Muslim fasts.  Even though I don't believe anymore, I still practice a few fasts... perhaps out of habit. Perhaps out of some spiritual or discipline aspect.
    The only 'community' I've ever been a part of has been one led by Islamic people.
    The only social restrictions and conventions I adhere to and need to be aware of are those based on the Indian-Muslim culture.
    Many of my values come from the Indian-Muslim culture. Focussing on Nafs... I am very good at self-control.
    When we talk of cultural dress, it is my mother's hijab or a man's beard.

    I'm reminded of the fact that I am part of the Indian-Muslim culture every bloody time I sneeze. I still say shukar-Al-hamdullilah instead of god bless you.  It's instinctive.  It's part of my culture.
    My wife who still considers herself a Muslim says god bless you Tongue  I can't control that reaction in me on a sneeze.

    I know we all would like to deny the Muslim part of us. But in my case, there's no escaping it.  Muslim culture has shaped me and it's the only culture I know if... It is what my parents and cousins follow.  Could I find a new culture to follow. Perhaps, but I haven't and see no need to. I'm sure many have done so and they could probably not be described as cultural Muslims.  Could I find a new way to have a funeral that is not Islamic? Probably... but whatever words and rituals are done are just that to me... words and rituals. 
    If we define culture as a way of life, as the holidays, as the set of social rules we take into consideration... there's no way I could deny that I am best described as a cultural Indian-Muslim.



  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #43 - May 06, 2013, 03:23 PM

    Another point in this.

    When it comes to culture I am Canadian and south asian.

    I like donuts and maple syrup and samosas and think indian weddings are alot more awesome than "western" ones.

    However I don't understand what influence Islam would have on one's way of life after someone rejects the ideology of Islam completely.


    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • What’s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #44 - May 06, 2013, 04:38 PM

    Yet, despite my busy life as an ex-Muslim activist I’m growing less convinced that “ex-Muslim” is always a useful description. It can come across as confrontational and overly simplistic, and has the tendency to close down debate before it starts.

    If that's the problem then I think using the label 'cultural muslim' is only going to cause more problems. 'Ex-muslim' is confrontational because it communicates a full blown rejection of Allah and most of what he and his Prophet have to say. Identifying as a cultural muslim isn't going to disguise that rejection. Muslims are against you denouncing the faith not against you not splashing water on your ass after you take a shit or eating with your left hand. 'Cultural muslim' may give the impression that we are trying to adopt islamic idiosyncacies without the fundamental belief in god and the prophet and that can be threatening to muslims.

    The point I am trying to make is that merely describing yourself by your lack of belief in a particular religion does not do justice to the tapestry of different influences and experiences that go to make up a person. Nor to the fact that we are located in particular socio-cultural context.

    I don't get this bit. Personally, the label 'ex-muslim' is an accurate repersentation of my relationship with Islam. 'Ex-muslim' says nothing about my culture and why should it? Nor does most of my culture have anything to do with Islam. Islam enforces it somewhat, sure, but it will survive without the supervision of Islam. All 'exmuslim' says is that I don't buy Islamic teachings. Calling yourself a cultural muslim instead doesn't do justice to your actual beliefs and views on Islam. It's misleading and suggests that you are just a lazy muslim. Of course a label like 'ex-muslim' doesn't describe a human fully and nor should it. I'd be worried if someone is using the label as a primary way to describe themself. We're all different amalgams of labels and while ex-muslim is definitely relevant it's something I'm sure we don't all uphold as our essence. We are other things too.

    Started from the bottom, now I'm here
    Started from the bottom, now my whole extended family's here

    JOIN THE CHAT
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #45 - May 06, 2013, 08:44 PM

    There is a concept that is older than any religion which simply allows those that practice religion to define themselves as believers. A German Christian is more likely to say 'I am German' than I am a Christian. When his religious influence is queried, the response is usually, 'I am a practicing Christian' as the case may be.

    As a secular, rationalist humanist, I would rather not have labels. Labels arise in context, when questioned thus: what nationality, what religion, what sect, are you practicing, etc. Genuine secular-humanists find cultural affinity as claustrophobic as religious affinity.

    There are a range of adjectives for those who subscribe to religion in various strengths - practicing, fundamentalist, non-practicing, etc. The concept of 'Cultural Muslim' does not advance does our understanding, it appears to be an attempt to cling onto an identity which is riddled with conceptual problems. A person who is an adherent of Islam is a Muslim. A person who is not an adherent of Islam is not a Muslim. There is no such thing as cultural Islam.

    The concept of a non-believer from the perspective of Islam is, at best, unappealing, at worse, rabidly racist. The words Kafir and Kuffar are loaded and full of the worse kinds of stigma. Would describing yourself as a 'Cultural Muslim' allow ex-Muslims to escape such stigma? Would 'Cultural Muslims' challenge the sigma? The most beneficial tensions in society are those of the 'other'. Those that were slaves, serfs, immigrants, etc. They were the one's that experienced racism and exclusion and fought to make the society a great deal more egalitarian.

    Allow believers to describe themselves in ever diminishing forms of exclusivity but describe yourself with biggest, most inclusive denominator - a human. Wear the Kafir badge with pride! —
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #46 - May 06, 2013, 09:02 PM

    Nice perspective, Salman. Well said as a first post. We’d like to get to know you a little better if you would not mind writing an introduction.
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #47 - May 06, 2013, 09:05 PM

    Lol, talking about labels, I've been having fun lately telling guys who ask me where I'm from when trying to get my attention, I'm from Wales and continue on my way  whilst enjoying that moment of puzzlement on their faces XD Of course what they're really asking is where my brownness comes from.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • What’s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #48 - May 06, 2013, 09:06 PM

    Hi Salman, as HM said, a very interesting first post  Smiley

    If you'd like to, please do introduce yourself to everyone here:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=2.0



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #49 - May 06, 2013, 10:34 PM

    Quote
    The point I am trying to make is that merely describing yourself by your lack of belief in a particular religion does not do justice to the tapestry of different influences and experiences that go to make up a person. Nor to the fact that we are located in particular socio-cultural context.

    Couple of problems:

    1. Who says it has to fully encapsulate a person? I certainly don't look at a self-identifying ex-Muslim and assume to know anything about them other than they were formerly Muslim. It says nothing about the person they are now, what they believe now, their attitude and worldview now. It's simply not possible to fairly extrapolate a whole persona from it. Those who do try to do so on that label alone must do some heavy filler work and shore it up with their own prejudices and biases.

    The people who do look at someone else in such superficial, assumptive, simplistic and absolute terms will just put a label on you anyway, no matter how much nuance or care you take in presenting one to them. They will automatically stop at something about you to key into and seize that opportunity to define you in simple terms. Some people will pigeonhole you in the least generous terms with only a cursory glance at you. I label those people all kinds of colourful words.

    We all label to a degree. We all put people in boxes, storing people in our brain with a list of reference points. It's sometimes a functional and necessary part of language and dialogue. That's just natural picture building and communication, not necessarily value judgement. And that's the difference. The problems arise when value is attached to labels, when they are no longer simply descriptive but laden with additional weight and worth. Obviously some labels are overt negative judgements from the outset. Lets not talk about those types of labels though.

    2. "Cultural Muslim" translates in my head to "Muslim (in a cultural sense)", i.e., a person who perhaps adopts the cultural and social aspects of Islamic life, but who doesn't necessarily commit to the theological claims and wants that to be known. I think you've confirmed that this is the sentiment you wish to get across. But from what I can gather (and I might be wrong), you want this to be a more appealing substitute for ex-Muslim. That is simply not the same as ex-Muslim, though. There is no symmetry. Cultural Muslim is different from ex-Muslim. There is significant meaning and connotation to the word Muslim. It is conveying a religious commitment - fealty and submission to a particular higher power. Ex-Muslim makes it clear that the connotation is rejected or past-tense.

    I suppose a more deferential label might have a use in certain diplomatic or unique 'first impression' contexts, but beyond that I see no problem with it. I am what I am. Being ex-Muslim is a fact. A constitutive part of me. It might not be a principle aspect of me now, but it does represent an abandonment of something that was formerly a principle aspect of me. If people cannot accept that fact about me without turmoil or bias, how on earth are we gonna get along anyway? It's a clash of an entire persona, not a label clash. A change of label is not gonna change the fundamental philosophical differences we have as individuals, that will arise given time. This cannot be side-stepped by sweetening the label.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What’s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #50 - May 06, 2013, 11:36 PM

    "Cultural Muslim" translates in my head to "Muslim (in a cultural sense)", i.e., a person who perhaps adopts the cultural and social aspects of Islamic life, but who doesn't necessarily commit to the theological claims and wants that to be known.


    I am struggling with the term on a multitude of levels and failing to find it as a particularly useful way of describing anyone.

    I would argue that author is likely more culturally non-Muslim than culturally Muslim. The occasional mumbled prayer or ritual response to a sneeze does little to require the broader label of “cultural Muslim.”  

    I simply find it hard to accept that a former Muslim would retain enough uniquely “Islamic” cultural practices to require such a loaded and controversial label. Or are we really fasting during the daylight hours of Ramadan while not believing in the existence of Allah and his angels? Or are we regularly praying on our prayer rugs while believing that much of Muhammad’s life story is worthy of rebuke? Or is it all just the arse-washing?

    Further, It is impossible to quantify the cultural influences a person is subjected to during the course of his or her lifetime. And it is unnecessary to actively label ourselves with every influence that has left its mark on who we are.

    I would think that other labels, such as nationality and ethnic background, would more than encompass whatever nuances one wished to capture under the Muslim label. For instances when those labels are not enough, no simple label will likely ever do.

    I personally spent a huge portion of my adult life as a practicing wahabi Muslim of the Saudi sort. I can relate to that identity more than I can relate to many identities that are uniquely American. I understand Gulf Arabic, I enjoy Saudi cuisine, I have something of an infatuation with Arabian history and culture, and I would be very comfortable sporting a tailored white thobe and an overly starched, red and white checkered shimagh, in the highly unlikely event that the occasion should require. And yet, that is only a fraction of the influences that have contributed to making me who I am. I would find it hypocritical and misleading to refer to myself as a “cultural Salafi.”

    The fact that one retains a strong appreciation for, as the author put it, Islam’s architectural, literary and poetic heritage does nothing to necessitate an affiliation with the “Muslim” label. Indeed, I think that label causes more confusion than it does clarification.
  • What’s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #51 - May 06, 2013, 11:59 PM

    I am struggling with the term on a multitude of levels and failing to find it as a particularly useful way of describing anyone.

    Well, there does seems to be somewhat of an appetite for the term, or a term. I'm not entirely sure I fully understand why. If ex-Muslim isn't sitting right with someone, they should abandon it. If it isn't comfortably representing oneself, it serves no purpose to carry it. It doesn't seem necessary to find a replacement, though.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #52 - May 07, 2013, 12:10 AM

    I wonder if it's an age thing? Not necessarily age of a person in years, but how long they've been at the whole ex-Muslim thing. I'm picking up a jaded vibe from the article.

    I'm still young, and it doesn't seem that long ago that I first considered myself an ex-Muslim. I still feel like I'm riding the crest of that wave. I feel a bit attached and protective over the label. I like being part of the ex-Muslim movement. But it does attract a lot of ire and I can understand why someone might want to relax for a bit, figure out some kind of accessible face and more accommodating way of representing one's ideas that's free from automatic judgment.

    Not suggesting for a moment that the author is abandoning anything. If I remember correctly who he is (because I think he changed his name?), he was one of the big characters when I first joined here. One of the main voices of the forum, certainly influencing my thoughts and ideas in little ways, and doing a damn sight more for ex-Muslims than I ever have.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #53 - May 07, 2013, 12:24 AM

    Perhaps it is an age thing. And I’m not for a second questioning the Author’s non-Muslim-ness, either. Much of that is why I consider the “cultural Muslim” label misleading.

    If the goal is to be less controversial, then I do not know that that is possible. I agree, Ishina, that “cultural Muslim” can not replace “ex-Muslim.” You are an ex-Muslim whether Muslims like it or not. I doubt that the label will do much to make Muslims more amiable to your positions.

    If the purpose is to retain and express some sort of appreciation for cultural practices usually associated with Islam, then as I explained earlier, I don’t think the label is necessary. Others should do.
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #54 - May 07, 2013, 12:43 AM

    Saif says that cultural Muslim may be an identity that offers a softly softly approach to enticing moderate Muslims away from hardline interpretations, a kind of strategy as it were.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #55 - May 07, 2013, 12:44 AM

    I agree with that interpretation actually. But it doesn’t seem to encompass the sentiment he was trying to portray in the article.

    I personally can’t see how anyone who believes that Allah is nonexistent and that Muhammad was at least mistaken and misguided and at most a liar and a fraud can still claim to be any sort of Muslim.

    As for it being less confrontational, that will likely only work until Muslims find out what your positions really are.
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #56 - May 07, 2013, 12:52 AM

    Islam teaches effectively that there can be an ex-Christian, ex-Jew, ex-Hindu etc when people from these backgrounds 'revert' to Islam.

    However the very idea of an ex-Muslim is beyond the pale.

    I think a case can be made that this is intrinsically problematic, is rooted in arrogance and an assumption that Islam is beyond change, and so the ex-Muslim identity is just a very necessary position to exist, like a beacon for those who wish to question this assumption (and leave Islam)

    The cultural Muslim identity is wonderful it if works for you. In a secular liberal society one can self identify as you please. But it seems like a false position to suggest that cultural muslim 'replaces' ex-Muslim. Unless in that very schematic way of looking at the whole thing as a softly softly chess move against 'hardline' Islam.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #57 - May 07, 2013, 12:54 AM

    Meh. To him be his label and to me be mine. Ex-Muslim 4 life son!  cool2
  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #58 - May 07, 2013, 12:56 AM

     Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • What?s a 'Cultural Muslim'?
     Reply #59 - May 07, 2013, 01:01 AM

    Homo sapiens sapiens: Citizen of Planet Earth.  cool2

    Fuck the trivia.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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