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- Quod Sum Eris
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Reply #90 - October 02, 2013, 04:14 AM

Oh and it's not just that page, if you click on the CEMB twitter account avatar (like if you click on my awesome picture, and make sure it's the picture itself not the name) there's a whole lot of other posts and topics. Some really amazing and eye opening stuff.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #91 - October 02, 2013, 05:02 AM

Quote from: C1981 on October 01, 2013, 10:27 PM
You mean from Islamic religious texts?

Any source that would have been used during any of the major Caliphates, nothing new or modern interpretations of old work. Just straight translations.

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 02, 2013, 12:05 AM
Not sure if this is what you were looking for but here's a few interesting historical facts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_feminism#Nineteenth_century

Not quite what I was looking for but still interesting. To me this at least suggests that equality, amount other things, was an issues in recent history.

Quote from: three on October 02, 2013, 02:27 AM
I think you could just find all this in Hadith and Quran. If Islamic laws were applied, there would not be any need to document them under those dynasties, because the laws were not from the dynasties themselves but rather from the Sunnah and Quran. There is no innovation, so there would not be any change in Shariah like there is in Western legal systems that establish precedents. You are looking for references in English? That market is saturated by apologists, good luck.

Well looking at Hadiths and the Quran I see rights, customs and laws that fit within the time of authorship. Nothing to suggest any of the modern views society now hold. However I have been told that I can not interpret verses from the Quran on my own otherwise I will have distorted views like I just mentioned. I must look at hadith and tafsir... Which result in a worse view than my first impressions the more I read. Any suggestion on which hadith to search regarding women's rights in business or politics? I haven't really found anything regarding a women's right to say rule a county, region, province, etc.

I realize there is a lot of apologetics. Most of what I find is modern commentary on commentary on commentary of hadith or quran passages.

Quote from: three on October 02, 2013, 03:37 AM

I suppose, after all, I really have nothing to contribute. I don't know anything about ancient court records in foreign languages. I bet China has good records.

Bringing up Madhabs shows how little I know while also pointing out how horrible my course is considering it doesnt go into any depth. I will see what I can find on the various schools.
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Reply #92 - October 02, 2013, 06:38 AM

Quote from: bogart on October 02, 2013, 05:02 AM
I have been told that I can not interpret verses from the Quran on my own otherwise I will have distorted views like I just mentioned.

I had to laugh at that. Okay mate, let me spell it out for you. I can't give you that much info on the rest of it because I'm not anywhere near an expert in the sharia or islamic theology to the extent I'd have to be to give you everything you need, but I can answer the above comment.

The above picture is of a red t-shirt. Certain people will insist that it's blue. When you say you can see for yourself, clear as day, that it's red, they will tell you no, you're wrong, you don't understand, you can't interpret it on your own like this, you need guidance, you need an expert to explain to you how it's actually blue. A bull could see you in this shirt and charge at you, and they'd still insist it's blue.

It's not blue mate. It's red.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #93 - October 02, 2013, 02:35 PM

^ And yet some people are deemed colour–blind and will not see it as red. Are they objectively wrong on that matter?
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Reply #94 - October 02, 2013, 08:34 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 02, 2013, 06:38 AM

I had to laugh at that. Okay mate, let me spell it out for you. I can't give you that much info on the rest of it because I'm not anywhere near an expert in the sharia or islamic theology to the extent I'd have to be to give you everything you need, but I can answer the above comment.

I follow the same system I use regarding the Bible or Torah. I take an English version with proper citation to Greek or Aramaic texts. I use a lexicon along with references translations to older texts. I do hand translations to verify these texts and translations. I do this with the Quran and select hadith passages I research. Seems like a cop out to me regardless of which religion is the topic, reinterpretation for modern times. A was held for time X, B is held for time Y.
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Reply #95 - October 02, 2013, 11:56 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 02, 2013, 04:10 AM
three, have you seen the CEMB twitter blog account? it's filled with articles, many written by members on their experiences with islam and islamic stories, some amazing posts. happymurtad wrote a fascinating one on why hell isn't real and another on a story of Mo, Toona on being raised to believe in jihad and martyrdom, Luther on stepping out of hijab, etc.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=56.0

From what little you've said, you sound like you have fascinating experiences that can give insight not only to none muslims looking in, but people from a similar background, perhaps even hope.

No I didn't see this. I don't have Twitter, so I never paid attention. Let me put some of these little kids to bed and I will check it out. Thanks!

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Reply #96 - October 03, 2013, 12:00 AM

bogart, you are looking for something that does not exist. Women are given the right to divorce, the right to keep their income. But in no way are they equal to men. Women are supposed to have guardians. How can such a person run a country?

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Reply #97 - October 03, 2013, 02:45 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on October 02, 2013, 04:10 AM

From what little you've said, you sound like you have fascinating experiences that can give insight not only to none muslims looking in, but people from a similar background, perhaps even hope.

Actually, there is not much I can say about experiences, because I was living in purdah for years and years, so I never went anywhere at all, and neither did anyone come to see me. I had a chaperone when I did go out without a mahram. It sort of atrophied me.

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Reply #98 - October 03, 2013, 04:06 AM

Quote from: three on October 03, 2013, 12:00 AM
bogart, you are looking for something that does not exist. Women are given the right to divorce, the right to keep their income. But in no way are they equal to men. Women are supposed to have guardians. How can such a person run a country?

Your comment mirrors a passage from a hadith; Bukhari, Maghazi, 82, Fitan, 18; Tirmidhi, Fitan, 75; Nasai, Qudat, 8; Ahmad b. Hanbal, V, 43, 51, 38, 4. "Never will succeed such a nation as lets their affairs carried out by a woman" So from my own interpretation women as rulers are not successful nor is the nation that has one. So if at the time Islamic scholars followed this idea then women were never granted the rights we see in the modern world. So the idea Islam granted equal rights across the board is false and modern reinterpretation in modern light in order to avoid looking backwards. The religion is timeless but not the interpretation of it as it changes after society has deemed a subject acceptable or not.

I was just looking for sources in order to compare women's rights in Islam to other civilizations. I found a lack of women rulers in Islamic nations of the past while many women ruled nations in Europe, Asian, the New World. The issue I am having is finding references to support the claim of modern rights as part of Islam. Often the sources I do have are not directly linked with certain rights. Most are hadith and tasfir that detail a situation, for example domestic conflicts or divorce. These are then extrapolated into a subject not mentioned in the text. To put it simply the whole process comes down to "What would Jesus/The Prophet/God do?" Which doesn't support anything but one imposing their conscience on to a figure in order to validate an already held view.
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Reply #99 - October 03, 2013, 05:42 AM

You've hit the nail on the head.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #100 - October 03, 2013, 11:34 PM

Quote from: bogart on October 03, 2013, 04:06 AM
Your comment mirrors a passage from a hadith; Bukhari, Maghazi, 82, Fitan, 18; Tirmidhi, Fitan, 75; Nasai, Qudat, 8; Ahmad b. Hanbal, V, 43, 51, 38, 4. "Never will succeed such a nation as lets their affairs carried out by a woman" So from my own interpretation women as rulers are not successful nor is the nation that has one. So if at the time Islamic scholars followed this idea then women were never granted the rights we see in the modern world. So the idea Islam granted equal rights across the board is false and modern reinterpretation in modern light in order to avoid looking backwards. The religion is timeless but not the interpretation of it as it changes after society has deemed a subject acceptable or not.

I was just looking for sources in order to compare women's rights in Islam to other civilizations. I found a lack of women rulers in Islamic nations of the past while many women ruled nations in Europe, Asian, the New World. The issue I am having is finding references to support the claim of modern rights as part of Islam. Often the sources I do have are not directly linked with certain rights. Most are hadith and tasfir that detail a situation, for example domestic conflicts or divorce. These are then extrapolated into a subject not mentioned in the text. To put it simply the whole process comes down to "What would Jesus/The Prophet/God do?" Which doesn't support anything but one imposing their conscience on to a figure in order to validate an already held view.

See. Now you get it. "Equal rights" under Islam is just apologist babble.

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Reply #101 - October 04, 2013, 12:51 PM

Not sure how relevant this short article will be for you, Bogart, but I came across it on the BBC this morning and decided against dedicating a thread to it. It discusses the canonization of secular law in the Ottoman sultanate once traditional sharia proved inadequate.

I find the Ottoman period particularly interesting because of the way that it is often romanticized and lamented by modern Muslims. Any quick study of the period, however, will show that the often despised Sultans were just as ruthless and unethical as any medieval ruler.

Balancing Sharia: The Ottoman Kanun
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Reply #102 - October 05, 2013, 09:11 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on October 04, 2013, 12:51 PM
Not sure how relevant this short article will be for you, Bogart, but I came across it on the BBC this morning and decided against dedicating a thread to it. It discusses the canonization of secular law in the Ottoman sultanate once traditional sharia proved inadequate.

I find the Ottoman period particularly interesting because of the way that it is often romanticized and lamented by modern Muslims. Any quick study of the period, however, will show that the often despised Sultans were just as ruthless and unethical as any medieval ruler.

Balancing Sharia: The Ottoman Kanun

I noticed the reliance on the Ottoman Empire, as well as Spain and the Abbasid dynasty as examples. Yet not Mali of the 15th century, Mughal Empire, Umayyad caliphate, Indonesia, etc. Look up the Tanzimat era. It covers the slow century long death of the Empire as the West overtook the world's superpower in most fields. Various European systems were implemented from military, rights, law, government, etc. There were a number of revolts, civil wars, dynastic feuds and religion uprisings following most reforms. Honestly the Ottoman Empire is probably the worst example for a Muslim to use. The Empire endorsed the same systems of previous empires, slavery for example, but on a larger scale. It also compromised Islamic system in favour of new systems as these worked better or were completely lacking in Islamic system as per your example and my own.

The Abbasid dynasty also followed similar assimilation as their conquest of Persia triggered a Golden Age. This is due to Persian systems and concept being absorbed not Islam. So it is not a good example either. If Islam was a key factor the Umayyad caliphate would of had the same Golden Age. The major difference between the two was Persia.

The best examples of Islam are always the states that comprised Islamic system the most by absorbing foreign concepts and systems. Is there some school of thought that validate assimilation of concepts into Islam? I'm a little confused regarding this. If Islamic systems and concepts are superior to all wouldn't absorbing foreign concepts prove this wrong?
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Reply #103 - November 03, 2013, 02:05 AM

Any suggestions for Islamic philosophy? It can be in book, PDF or Lecture format. My philosophy lectures are still dealing with Greek philosophy but will be shifting to Christian and European lectures. However considering Islamic philosophy had an influence. I want to fill the gaps between these different schools due to the poor lecture format
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