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 Topic: Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians

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  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     OP - October 29, 2013, 04:31 PM
    Stephen Laws chapter is great


    http://stephenlaw.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/moving-semantic-goalposts-some.html?m=1
    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #1 - October 29, 2013, 04:55 PM
    I think that's where Christianity in particular is weak. The idea that God is maximally loving is preposterous and impossible to reconcile with either reality or the Christian mythology.

    Islam on the other hand seems comfortable worshiping evil and tyranny.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #2 - October 29, 2013, 08:52 PM
    Just started on this. Around a third of the way through, and need my first dose of caffeine for the day.

    Bloody good article so far. I totally love "effing the ineffable". I have got to start using that. grin12

    The thought occurred to me that much of what Law is talking about is a weird variation of God of the Gaps, in that these people are now at the stage of desperately looking for any available gap to hide their god in.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #3 - October 29, 2013, 09:12 PM
    Finished it. Damned good. I like this bloke already. He doesn't wander around in mazes of turgid verbiage. He just gets straight to very good points, and does it in clear and concise English. If you really want to communicate, that's the way to do it. Afro

    I'm going to check out some more of his blog. yes
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #4 - October 29, 2013, 10:26 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 29, 2013, 04:55 PM
    I think that's where Christianity in particular is weak. The idea that God is maximally loving is preposterous and impossible to reconcile with either reality or the Christian mythology.

    Islam on the other hand seems comfortable worshiping evil and tyranny.



    I think Islam is equally vulnerable here, but Muslims quite literally change the definition of Allah’s “positive” attributes to account for his seemingly evil nature. The idea of Allah being “Rahman” and “Raheem” would be completely laughable if applied to any other being with Allah’s track record. “Rahman” implies that he is unnecessarily and overwhelmingly engulfed by mercy to the point that mercy describes his entire state of being. Obviously, this would be a very generous description for the sole architect of Islamic Hell. Muslims get around this, however, by literally changing the meaning of mercy to include all actions that Allah does. If Allah does it, then it is by definition merciful. And viola, Allah always wins.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #5 - October 29, 2013, 10:48 PM
    Yeah, it's impossible to reconcile Most Merciful with Hell. It's a genuine mystery to me how Muslims manage to avoid facing that glaring contradiction. It's as though the contradiction falls into a blind spot.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #6 - October 29, 2013, 10:52 PM
    If someone can square maximum mercy and Hell, I'll convert right now.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #7 - October 29, 2013, 11:47 PM
    You’re absolutely right. I personally think the issue of Islamic hell is as detrimental to Islam as the issue of the existence of evil is to Christianity. As I was in my doubting phase (which lasted a considerable amount of time), I tried to reconcile the idea of Islamic hell with the idea of Allah’s mercy while noticing that the two were diametrically opposed.

     The problem is that Islam’s depictions of hell are so many and so grotesque that even relegating them to the realm of metaphor would still leave the implication of something that is contrary to the idea of excessive, ever-present mercy. There is a hadith that states, in more or less words, that the mercy of this world is only 1 of a hundred parts of Allah’s total mercy, and that Allah was waiting till the Day of Judgment to reveal the other 99 parts. The only way I could reconcile this with a belief in hell was to think that maybe, just maybe, on the Day of Judgment, Allah would reveal that the entire “hell” thing was really just some sort of test and that no one was actually going to be tortured eternally. Of course, that then raised questions as to Allah’s honesty, truthfulness, and whether or not he can be trusted.

    In the end, I think that any discussion about the veracity of Islamic claims should always come back to the issues of belief, reasonable doubt, and the justification of jahannam for those who can not believe. Maybe Islam does turn out to be true in the end—far fetched, I know, but I’ll grant it to you for the sake of argument. But a Muslim will struggle to explain why jahannam is a merciful recompense for those who didn’t believe that it was, given all the reasonable doubt that exists.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #8 - October 30, 2013, 12:19 AM
    It's torture porn. I'm a massive fan of horror and have a strong stomach, but there is something about the Quranic depictions of Hell that unsettles me. They seem particularly twisted and cruel and the fact that these violent fantasies represent the real world beliefs of people makes it very sobering and serious, in a way that fiction normally does not.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #9 - October 30, 2013, 12:39 AM
    Indeed. I think it is even more problematic because the sin that would land you a sure-fire ticket to hell according to Islam is the sin in which absolutely no harm is done. The Qur’an says repeatedly that Allah does not need our worship and that we can never harm Allah in the least, even if we disbelieve. So, in effect, the one crime for which the vast majority of humanity will be sentenced to hell for eternity is a crime in which no actual crime actually happened. There was quite literally no harm done. At all. Add to this that Allah is supposedly just overflowing with mercy, and you have a proposition that simply can not stand. I’d be curious to see how the apologists address this. I can't think of a good Islamic counter argument.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #10 - October 30, 2013, 12:45 AM
    Allah also creates some humans and jinn specifically to put in Hell. For what reason, no answer is given.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #11 - October 30, 2013, 12:48 AM
    This is what I've tried to tell people who question my disbelief. I just can't get my head around this concept. (Plus 90 feet tall giants as opposed to evolution and all the other bullshit stories). They look at me like I'M mad!
    Don't read all those science books bro, you'll just get more confused.

    That's funny. The more science I read, the less confused I get.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #12 - October 30, 2013, 12:51 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 30, 2013, 12:45 AM
    Allah also creates some humans and jinn specifically to put in Hell. For what reason, no answer is given.


    He also boasts that he could have guided everyone, but decided instead to fill hell with men and jinns. I’d really like to see how the new age apologists handle this dilemma, especially in the light of Allah dubbing himself “the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.”

    I think in the end they run into the same problem that Christianity does when trying to explain away the existence of evil, but with much less wiggle room to BS their way out of it. Like I said, even if we take those verses metaphorically, we still are left with a pretty nasty, unpleasant concept to which Allah will intentionally subject a great deal of people while having the full capacity to do otherwise.


    Anyone have Yasir Qadhi or AR Green’s email? I’d like to pick their brains on this one. 
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #13 - October 30, 2013, 12:58 AM
    Quote from: jvegas on October 30, 2013, 12:48 AM
    This is what I've tried to tell people who question my disbelief. I just can't get my head around this concept. (Plus 90 feet tall giants as opposed to evolution and all the other bullshit stories). They look at me like I'M mad!


    This argument first came to me the other month when I got into a debate with a christian bloke from Nigeria. He went on about how if god does it it's good, I made some arguments showing it isn't, he ended up saying all of reality is his house, and that I'm in control of things in my house, blah blah stupid fucking justification. This is what I said in response, and I've used it here on CEMB as well.

    Here's a situation. Let's say there's something in your house you don't like. It offends you. Let's also say you have the power of a god. Would you A) throw away the thing you didn't like or give it to charity, or B) bring it to life, give it intelligence so it can understand what's happening, enable it to feel pain, and torture it forever and ever and ever? Which is more merciful?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #14 - October 30, 2013, 01:08 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on October 30, 2013, 12:51 AM
    He also boasts that he could have guided everyone, but decided instead to fill hell with men and jinns. I’d really like to see how the new age apologists handle this dilemma, especially in the light of Allah dubbing himself “the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.”

    Yeah, that's another problem. There is no free will in Islam, which makes much modern apologia off limits for Muslims. I'd argue that there is no free will in theism, full stop. But Christianity seems to have a healthy trade in free will-based excuses.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #15 - October 30, 2013, 01:24 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 29, 2013, 10:48 PM
    Yeah, it's impossible to reconcile Most Merciful with Hell. It's a genuine mystery to me how Muslims manage to avoid facing that glaring contradiction. It's as though the contradiction falls into a blind spot.


    Can you explain how it's a glaring contradiction?

    EDIT : Never mind. Stupid question.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #16 - October 30, 2013, 01:27 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on October 30, 2013, 12:51 AM
    He also boasts that he could have guided everyone, but decided instead to fill hell with men and jinns. I’d really like to see how the new age apologists handle this dilemma, especially in the light of Allah dubbing himself “the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.”

    I think in the end they run into the same problem that Christianity does when trying to explain away the existence of evil, but with much less wiggle room to BS their way out of it. Like I said, even if we take those verses metaphorically, we still are left with a pretty nasty, unpleasant concept to which Allah will intentionally subject a great deal of people while having the full capacity to do otherwise.


    Anyone have Yasir Qadhi or AR Green’s email? I’d like to pick their brains on this one. 


    awggreen@gmail.com
    AYQ@MemphisIslamicCenter.org

    Do you people also think that it is a contradiction for a Being to be always Just and the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy" at the same time?
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #17 - October 30, 2013, 01:40 AM
    Quote from: kutta on October 30, 2013, 01:24 AM
    Can you explain how it's a glaring contradiction?

    Well, a maximally merciful being would display mercy when the possibility of mercy presents itself. The possibility of mercy presents itself on the day of judgment, in the form of not subjecting a lesser being to the worst possible suffering for an infinite amount of time.

    Moreover, a being cannot be most merciful if another being is more merciful. I am more merciful than Allah, since I would show mercy instead of subjecting a lesser being to the worst possible suffering for an infinite amount of time.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #18 - October 30, 2013, 01:44 AM
    Not that I'd think to invent Hell in the first place. But if I was thrust into the position of God, Hell would be empty.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #19 - October 30, 2013, 02:30 AM
    Quote from: kutta on October 30, 2013, 01:27 AM
    awggreen@gmail.com
    AYQ@MemphisIslamicCenter.org


    I'll work on a draft.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #20 - October 30, 2013, 02:39 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 30, 2013, 01:40 AM
    Well, a maximally merciful being would display mercy when the possibility of mercy presents itself. The possibility of mercy presents itself on the day of judgment, in the form of not subjecting a lesser being to the worst possible suffering for an infinite amount of time.

    Moreover, a being cannot be most merciful if another being is more merciful. I am more merciful than Allah, since I would show mercy instead of subjecting a lesser being to the worst possible suffering for an infinite amount of time.


    Yes, very clear. Thank you. This is like 2 + 2 = 4. I'm surprised I didn't think of this before, especially when I have a tendency to focus on other contradictions that require more thought.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #21 - October 30, 2013, 02:50 AM
    Just to give you all a bit of a laugh, I'll tell you what my father said, "Besides being all-merciful, he is also all-just. Imagine if someone killed a relative of yours, you would want justice would you not? Allah will give it to you. Hell was created for these people. About the people who disbelieved - yes, they committed no crime but they were given chances to believe and they didn't take it. Adam agreed with Allah when He said that humans had to worship Allah. Look at all the bad people in this world who have committed crimes and who got off scot-free. On judgement day, they will be dealt with justly. That in itself is mercy. It is mercy in that the people who have been wronged will be the in the right once again." I admit I was a little less grown-up than I could have been by snorting with laughter after this impassioned speech, but it was terribly funny the way he jumped up and down to defend his beliefs.
    'My principal sin is doubt. I doubt everything, and am in doubt most of the time,' Levin said.
    ― Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #22 - October 30, 2013, 02:59 AM
    Just - based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

    Merciful - compassion or forgiveness shown towards someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm.

    Perhaps one could come up with a scenario where Allah decides to be just, and another scenario where Allah decides to be merciful. But to be "All Just" and the "Most Merciful of those who show Mercy" at the same time? I don't think so.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #23 - October 30, 2013, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on October 30, 2013, 02:30 AM
    I'll work on a draft.


    let us know if you get a response  Afro
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #24 - October 30, 2013, 05:39 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on October 30, 2013, 01:40 AM
    Well, a maximally merciful being would display mercy when the possibility of mercy presents itself. The possibility of mercy presents itself on the day of judgment, in the form of not subjecting a lesser being to the worst possible suffering for an infinite amount of time.

    Moreover, a being cannot be most merciful if another being is more merciful. I am more merciful than Allah, since I would show mercy instead of subjecting a lesser being to the worst possible suffering for an infinite amount of time.


    Some Muslims say that you can only be merciful if you actually perform a merciful act in real life rather than in a hypothetical situation. Since all acts in real life and in the Afterlife belong ultimately to Allah's will, He remains the "Most Merciful".
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #25 - October 30, 2013, 05:50 PM
    Yes, my dear Kutta, I alluded to this earlier. The fact of the matter is that this sly rhetorical devise completely robs the word “mercy” of any real meaning. If we are going to define whatever ruthless acts Allah commits as “merciful,” then in what way can we understand the concept of mercy in any real sense? Causing infinite, real, tangible suffering when you are completely capable of doing otherwise must be in opposition to any understanding of the word “mercy.” I would give examples here, but I don’t think I need to.

    Choosing to punish, choosing revenge, choosing vindictiveness, choosing justice even, when you have the chance and ability to do otherwise, is simply the opposite of choosing mercy, even if you are well within your rights to do so.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #26 - October 30, 2013, 06:25 PM
    Quote from: kutta on October 30, 2013, 05:39 PM
    Some Muslims say that you can only be merciful if you actually perform a merciful act in real life rather than in a hypothetical situation.

    Of course you're not literally merciful until you literally do something merciful. But anyone who cannot speak hypothetically and fundamentally misunderstands the concept of hypothetical to such a degree is too dumb and immature to have a conversation with.

    Quote from: kutta on October 30, 2013, 05:39 PM
    Since all acts in real life and in the Afterlife belong ultimately to Allah's will, He remains the "Most Merciful".

    This also is too dumb to engage with. Under those terms, the notion of mercy is no longer relevant since to be merciful to oneself is meaningless. What is mercy without the essential dynamic relationship between at least two beings? It's nothing. Redundant.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Moving the goalposts by Sophisticated Theologians
     Reply #27 - October 30, 2013, 06:28 PM
    "Under those terms, the notion of mercy is no longer relevant since to be merciful to oneself is meaningless."

    Yes, exactly.
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