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- ThatMuslimGuy
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Reply #60 - March 04, 2014, 11:27 PM

Quote from: Ishina on December 12, 2013, 10:35 PM
On reading the Quran.

Allah doesn't feature on the list of things I believe can possibly exist, so whatever its views might be are not going to figure into my assessment of
Islam. Whether that's conflation or not, I'm not so sure.

Fair enough.

Quote
... by trusting in what the Quran says, because to not do so means being punished? That's not the kind of thing I have in mind when I think about a safe space where reflection is encouraged. I think, rather, it is overt and astonishingly simple-minded emotional blackmail.
I didn't say Islam is consistent. The idea of dawah and the idea that only Allah can change a mind are both doctrines of Islam.

Good point.
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Reply #61 - March 04, 2014, 11:29 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on December 13, 2013, 12:55 AM
ThatMuslimGuy, I think that you will have no faith left if you TRULY question all the reasons you became Muslim. We are several ex-tullaab here on the forum who spend many years studying the den, and left Islam BECAUSE we realized it was all lies

I question and analyse that every day. All the time infact. I re analyse what I am following and why im following it.
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Reply #62 - March 04, 2014, 11:31 PM

Quote from: Ricky on December 13, 2013, 01:24 AM
You refer to hadith a lot. I'm just curious, you ever wonder that the hadith could be fabricated? They were written 200 years after the Prophet died. For example, Sahih Muslim has 4000 sayings but yet the man collecting them discarded so many before he said 4000 were authentic. Now for a second how are you so sure those 4000 are even correct and not fabricated? Because after reading the hadith (for me at least) it seemed like if someone was to believe any of it, it'd be quite uncivilized to act according to the hadith. The saying where "there will be more women in hellfire then men" and the reason for that according to the explanation in riyadh us saliheen (book 1) was "because women disobey their husbands". If no hadith is used, the Quran is a book that could never be completely understood because it is very erratic, shifting from one topic to another from verse to verse confusing the reader. Above all, if the religion was handed down by God, then truly he would have figured to compile the prophet's sayings in a book before he died so people don't twist the "true deen". Cuz God does refer to the sunnah a lot but why not write it down as well in those 20 years? I don't expect you to answer this, something to ponder about!

Pretty simple.

Analysing Usool Al-Hadeeth. its methodology and see if its reliable and authentic. My research drew me to the conclusion it is. Otherwise I wouldn't listen jack to it.
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Reply #63 - March 04, 2014, 11:31 PM

Quote from: Cocoon on December 13, 2013, 02:02 AM
Perhaps the biggest reason for Islam to be hogwash is the Night Journey and Allah originally instructing us to pray 50 times a day.

So being ordered to prayer alot = Islam is false.

Nice logic there.

I joke.
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Reply #64 - March 04, 2014, 11:32 PM

Quote from: three on December 13, 2013, 02:40 AM
HM? Hello? Where are you, my friend?

Sorry went away. Then forgot about this thread until a fellow Ex-Muslim reminded me of it.
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Reply #65 - March 04, 2014, 11:35 PM

Quote from: Cornflower on December 13, 2013, 09:16 AM
And, welcome ThatMuslimGuy

Awh thanks.
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Reply #66 - March 04, 2014, 11:38 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 13, 2013, 01:48 PM
I've actually seen this done three times. The first was in the book The Islamist Delusion - From Islamist to Cultural Muslim Humanist by Saif Rahman who met this challenge. He said in the book he'd told it to a muslim who loved it and asked where abouts in the quran it was so they could show people. I can confirm that when I read what he came up with I could easily see it being mistaken for quranic scripture. Another was Sura Dawahman by happymurtad here on CEMB that Cornflower said her child thought was an actual sura from the quran. happymurtad also produced another chapter like it in Arabic. It's posted somewhere in audio via soundcloud (with him reciting it) and in typed words.

Ive listened to it. And if we are taking the opinion of a child then great.
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Reply #67 - March 05, 2014, 12:00 AM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on December 12, 2013, 10:21 PM
Allah calls for reflection upon his book in many various verses. Another infamous one being:

Sahih International
Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

A person who 'reflects' would notice that this verse is itself a non sequitur. A person who reflects would wonder why an all knowing god doesn't even have a grasp on the basic logical fallacies. Of course it is not the case that we would find much contradiction. There are plenty of books written by humans which contain no contradictions. Allah has confused a necessary condition of a divine book, with a sufficient condition.

The kind of 'reflecting' that the quran asks us to do, is merely to ponder on a crude version of the teleological argument.
You see how the sun orbits the earth every 24 hours? Well, Goddidit.
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Reply #68 - March 05, 2014, 12:01 AM

Just before i get spammed.

I retract all previous statements regarding reflection etc

Untill i research the issue further. Any comments or information on the issue is welcome.
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Reply #69 - March 05, 2014, 12:02 AM

Quote from: dr_sloth on March 05, 2014, 12:00 AM
A person who 'reflects' would notice that this verse is itself a non sequitur. A person who reflects would wonder why an all knowing god doesn't even have a grasp on the basic logical fallacies. Of course it is not the case that we would find much contradiction. There are plenty of books written by humans which contain no contradictions. Allah has confused a necessary condition of a divine book, with a sufficient condition.

The kind of 'reflecting' that the quran asks us to do, is merely to ponder on a crude version of the teleological argument.
You see how the sun orbits the earth every 24 hours? Well, Goddidit.

Many of the arguments are pretty much the teleological and cosmological argument yes.
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Reply #70 - March 05, 2014, 12:12 AM

Isn't it obviously incorrect to say that we would necessarily find contradictions in books not written by Allah?
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Reply #71 - March 05, 2014, 12:18 AM

i'll give you a clue: the answer is yes
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Reply #72 - March 05, 2014, 12:27 AM

Quote from: dr_sloth on March 05, 2014, 12:12 AM
Isn't it obviously incorrect to say that we would necessarily find contradictions in books not written by Allah?

Again the verse doesn't say that. Been reading to much captaindisguise I see.

The verse no where mentions a book or finding contradictions in a book etc.

Read it. It says:

Do they not ponder about the Quran? Had it been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much inconsistency.

Had what been other than Allah. The Quran. Not a book.

Ill make it easier for you:

Had [an orally revealed text learned over several years, without the ability to edit any grammatical or factual errors, that takes nearly 2 days to be recited from beginning to end non-stop, which encompasses the foundational truths of humanity and the unseen world, a moral ethic for all humanity to live by, etc.] been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much inconsistency.”

Read away:

http://asadullahali.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/illogical-critques-of-the-quran/
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Reply #73 - March 05, 2014, 12:51 AM

TheMuslimGuy, respectfully, اختلاف and its root has a whole bunch of meanings that range, yes, from differences and discrepancies to outright contradictions, so I am not so sure how safe it is to assume that Dr. Sloth's original point is invalid re a book containing no contradiction. To address your easier version of it, the same basic flaws apply, only you broke it up into parts:

The "[an orally revealed text learned over several years, without the ability to edit any grammatical or factual errors that takes nearly 2 days to be recited from beginning to end non-stop..." part would basically at once assert (loaded statement, by the way) that no other oral story of that length could be memorized or recited or be grammatically or factually perfect (is the Quran devoid of factual errors, anyway?).

The "...which encompasses the foundational truths of humanity and the unseen world, a moral ethic for all humanity to live by, etc.] been from any other than Allah, they would surely have found in it much inconsistency," part would have to mean that no other such text-free story could contain foundational truths of humanity/moral ethics and whatever "et cetera" is. Besides the statement being grossly pretentious in assuming that the Quran accurately addresses the "unseen world," which is something you'd have no way of verifying the existence of in the sense you're alluding to, much less the Quran's accurate depiction of it, it has the same flaw as Dr. Sloth's interpretation.

If you want to take it from the "not a book" perspective, sure, this becomes a tall order, but it is not impossible. Humans have done more impressive things than this, and memorized more complex things than this. In fact, pre-Islamic Arabia had a fantastic and beautiful history of preserving poems and stories through simple recitation. However, I remain unconvinced that your easier version is accurate, either way. If you have more evidence to show that this is correct, I'd be interested, though.
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Reply #74 - March 05, 2014, 01:35 AM

Quote
Not a book.

1. The quran is a book. Allah says so himself in surah 2. "This is the Book whereof there is no doubt"

2. Allah is not asking whether believing Muslims reflect on the quran. The verse is not referring to the people who already believe that it is "the foundational truths of humanity and the unseen world." It makes no difference what believing Muslims consider the quran to be. This verse is questioning the reflecting of those who are not certain that it is from Allah; those who do simply consider the quran to be merely a book (or even recitation). These people would not "surely find much inconsistency" in all other man made examples of 'whatever they consider the quran to be'.

If the reason that they don't find "much inconsistency" is because they are wrong about what the quran is, it still means they wouldn't "surely have found in it much inconsistency", and the quran is still wrong for the same reason.

3. But even if we grant everything you said, it would still only mean that the quran could have been better written.
In your scenario, the quran would be a million times clearer if it had said "if they had an accurate understanding of what the quran is, had it not been from allah, they would surely have found in it much inconsistency."

A poorly written quran, is just as problematic as a logically fallacious quran. It also directly contradicts it's claim to be clear, and therefore also contradicts it's other boast - to be free from inconsistency.
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Reply #75 - March 05, 2014, 02:38 AM

Quote
Been reading to much captaindisguise I see.

Quote
Read away: http://asadullahali.wordpress.com/2013/09/08/illogical-critques-of-the-quran/

Thanks for bringing that to my attention; Can only wonder why Ali didn't let me know about it seeing as though he wrote it up after our arguments in the comments section here - http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/2013/02/qurans-error-sura-482-if-quran-had-been.html

It is also disappointing to see that he merely repeated the Special Pleading fallacy; and it seems you are doing the same (on top of a few disputable historical assumption about the Qur'an).

I've been meaning to write a reply to the special pleading objection. Hopefully soon!

Quote
Quote from: dr_sloth on Today at 06:12 PM
Isn't it obviously incorrect to say that we would necessarily find contradictions in books not written by Allah?

Again the verse doesn't say that

It is implied by logical extension.

The statement, "If Muhammad is a human, then Muhammad is a mammal" is true BY VIRTUE of the truth of the statement "All humans are mammals".

Likewise, the statement "If Qur'an has no humanly discoverable errors, then Qur'an is from God" can only be true BY VIRTUE of the veracity of the statement "All works that have no humanly discoverable errors are from God".

Since it seems you admit the latter statement is not true, then the former statement or Sura 4:82, without any relevant reason for its exception, is also false statement. Appealing otherwise, without any relevant reason for its exception, is a textbook example of the special pleading fallacy

http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
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Reply #76 - March 05, 2014, 02:54 AM

For those interested;

On the topic of the false conditional statement in Sura 4:82, in the comments of the following links, I have addressed a few people who who tried everything under the sky to wriggle out of this problem in the Qur'an. (Special pleading seems to be the most prominent excuse).

http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/2013/02/qurans-error-sura-482-if-quran-had-been.html
http://rationalislam.blogspot.com/2013/02/qurans-error-sura-482-if-quran-had-been.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1mq8jz/qurans_error_sura_482_if_quran_had_been_from/

http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
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Reply #77 - March 05, 2014, 03:06 AM

This is worse than special pleading. It isn't just that the special pleading is unjustified. It is also that plea can be granted, without rescuing the quran, and may even make things worse. It is useless...at best.
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Reply #78 - March 05, 2014, 03:18 AM

Quote
It is also that plea can be granted, without rescuing the quran, and may even make things worse.

Exaclty. In fact it can be argued that Qur'an is the kind of book (they complain about calling it a "book"); Fine!

It can be argued that the Qu'ran is the kind of "work" that could have been easily produced without any humanly discoverable errors (the term "لَوَجَدُوا" is key here); due to the very special pleas these apologists are appealing to. (I have sorta argued it in a comment in one of the links above)

http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
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Reply #79 - March 05, 2014, 03:30 AM

And also btw the special pleading excuse to this verse even has a history

see page 177-179 http://books.google.com/books?id=6Z8a_7B9uLcC

http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
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Reply #80 - March 05, 2014, 05:48 AM

Dudes a troll folks lets stop wasting time

Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Reply #81 - March 05, 2014, 06:04 AM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on March 04, 2014, 11:38 PM
Ive listened to it. And if we are taking the opinion of a child then great.

What's wrong with the opinion of a child? And just out of curiosity, could you give your thoughts on this? http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24983.msg709786#msg709786

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #82 - March 05, 2014, 07:41 AM

Allah himself also makes a clear challenge to anyone either Muslim or non-Muslim to find a mistake, discrepancy and contradictions in the Quran.

If any person, Muslim and non Muslim can never ever find any discrepancy and contradiction in Quran. It’s clearly that Quran is not a human written or human made text or copied from the other Holy Books Bible, Torah and Psalm

In Quran says. “Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.”

This is a clear challenges to our intelligence.

HOLY BOOKS (Kitab)..One of the Pillars of Faith in the religion of Islam is to believe in the scriptures revealed by Allah. (Iman, one of the foundations of Muslim beliefs and practices in Islam ) Muslims therefore believe in the Injeel, Torah, Psalms and the Scrolls of Abraham. At present, Muslims still believe that, the scriptures other than the Qur'an has been altered and corrupted to suit the specific needs of the parties especially People of the Book/Scriptures( Ahl al-Kitab), so that it is no longer an authentic texts.The Quran contains 114 chapters of varying length, with interspersed themes describing God's nature, guidance for daily living, stories from history and their moral messages, inspiration for believers, and warnings for disbelievers.

Quran 4:58
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them (Injeel, Torah, Psalms and the Scrolls of Abraham) by that which Allah hath revealed

Quran 17:55
And thy Lord is Best Aware of all who are in the heavens and the earth. And we preferred some of the prophets above others, and unto David We gave the Psalms.
The Quran mentions that revelation was given to David (Dawood). Some scholars believe that Dead Sea Scrolls from one of the Psalm origin.

Quran 3:3
He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
The Torah was given to Moses (Musa) and the revelation given to Jesus (Isa) from Allah is known among Muslims as the Injeel

Quran 87:18-19
And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation), The Books of Abraham and Moses.
The Quran mentions a revelation called the Suhuf Ibrahim, or the Scrolls of Abraham.

Why not, all scholars in religious studies especially Christians, Jews and Islamic agree and follow God Of Abraham (YHWH, God and Allah) orders..." So, judge between them (Injeel, Torah, Psalms and the Scrolls of Abraham by that which Allah hath revealed.."

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Reply #83 - March 05, 2014, 07:57 AM

The challenge itself is just silly in my opinion. It's like saying show me a child more beautiful than mine. And I already gave examples of the challenge having been met. If the examples I gave are not accepted, then what is? And who decides? Do I decide or do you decide?

And why is it only the quran? I can issue the same challenge with the Poetic Eddas. Bring me a chapter like it. We'll work out who decides if the challenge has been met later.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #84 - March 05, 2014, 08:12 AM

Allah said.."So judge between them (Injeel, Torah, Psalms and the Scrolls of Abraham) by that which Allah hath revealed".

I ain't got no problem. It's up to you If you want to judge all Holy Books with Poetic Eddas etc..

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Reply #85 - March 05, 2014, 08:14 AM

The Eddas aren't part of the "Scrolls of Abraham".

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #86 - March 05, 2014, 08:17 AM

Sorry, I never heard of Poetic Eddas part of the "Scrolls of Abraham".

Can you give explanation about it?

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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Reply #87 - March 05, 2014, 08:22 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 05, 2014, 08:14 AM
The Eddas aren't part of the "Scrolls of Abraham".

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #88 - March 05, 2014, 08:23 AM

I'm enjoying this.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Reply #89 - March 05, 2014, 08:53 AM

It's very intersting to me..

Let's take a look at some sacred texts.

Sacred texts of various religions:
Ásatrú
The Poetic Edda, including especially the Hávamál
The Younger Edda

Bahá'í Faith
The Kitáb-i-Aqdas
Kitáb-i-Íqán
and many other writings including ones from other faiths

Buddhism
The Tipitaka or Pali canon
and other Buddhist texts

Christianity
The Bible (also referred to as the Holy Writ), and
in Mormonism:
The Book of Mormon
The Pearl of Great Price
The Doctrine and Covenants
in Spiritism:
The Spirits Book
The Book of Mediums
The Gospel According to Spiritism
Heaven and Hell
The Genesis According to Spiritism

Discordianism
The Principia Discordia, although this may not be true for every sect.
The Apocrypha Discordia, although this may not be true for every sect.
There are many other holy texts within Eristic cabals, as pretty much anyone can canonize things.

Etruscan religion
Pyrgi Tablets
Tabula Cortonensis
Liber Linteus
Cippus Perusinus

Falun Gong
The Zhuan Falun

Hinduism
The Bhagvad Gita is Lord Krishna's counsel to Arjuna on the battlefield of the Kurukshetra.Śruti
Vedas
Rig Veda
Sama Veda
Yajur Veda
Atharva Veda
Brahmanas
Aranyakas
Upanishads
Smriti
Itihāsas
Mahābhārata
Bhagavad Gītā
Ramayana
Puranas (List)
Tantras
Sutras (List)
Stotras
Ashtavakra Gita
Gherand Samhita
Gita Govinda
Hatha Yoga Pradipika

Islam
The Qur'an (the holy book of Islam)
Ahadith (sayings and doings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad)
These Holy Sciptures are considered other books sent by God to mankind, but were either lost or corrupted.
Suhuf-i-Ibrahim (The Scrolls of Abraham)
The Tawrat (The Torah of Moses)
The Zabur (The Psalms of David)
The Injil (The Gospel of Jesus)

Jainism
Tattvartha Sutra

Judaism
The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh)
Torah
Nevi'im
Ketuvim

Mandaeanism
The Ginza Rba

Manichaeism
The Arzhang

New Age religions
Various New Age religions may regard any of the following texts as inspired:

Course in Miracles
Conversations with God
Oahspe
The Urantia Book

Rastafari movement
The Bible
the Holy Piby
the Kebra Negast
The speeches of Haile Selassie I
Royal Parchment Scroll of Black Supremacy

Samaritanism
The Samaritan Pentateuch

Satanism
The Satanic Bible
The Satanic Rituals
The Satanic Witch
The Devil's Notebook

Sikhism
The Guru Granth Sahib
The Dasam Granth Sahib

SubGenius
The Book of the SubGenius

Swedenborgianism
The Bible
The writings of Emanuel Swedenborg
Some also consider a number of posthumously published manuscripts of Swedenborg to also be sacred.

Taoism
The Tao-te-ching
The I Ching
The Chuang Tzu

Thelema
The Holy Books of Thelema especially Liber Al vel Legis

Unification Church
Divine Principle
Wolli Hesul (Explanation of the Divine Principle)
Wolli Kangron (Exposition of the Divine Principle)

Zoroastrianism
The Katha (The Gathas of Zarathushtra)
Primary:
The Avesta collection of texts:
The Yasna, the primary liturgical collection, includes the Gathas.
The Visparad, a collection of supplements to the Yasna.
The Yashts, hymns in honor of the divinities.
The Vendidad, describes the various forms of evil spirits and ways to confound them.
shorter texts and prayers, the five Nyaishes ("worship, praise"), the Sirozeh and the Afringans (blessings).
Secondary:
The Dēnkard (middle Persian, 'Acts of Religion'),
The Bundahishn, (middle Persian, 'Original Creation')
The Mainog-i-Khirad (middle Persian, 'Spirit of Wisdom')
The Arda Viraf Namak (middle Persian, 'The Book of Arda Viraf')
The Zartushtnamah (modern Persian, 'Book of Zoroaster')
The Sad-dar (modern Persian, 'Hundred Doors', or 'Hundred Chapters')
The Rivayats (modern Persian, traditional treatises).
For general use by the laity:
The Zend (lit. commentaries), various commentaries on and translations of the Avesta.
The Khordeh Avesta, a collection of everyday prayers from the Avesta.

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (al-Baqarah 2:18)
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