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 Topic: Non-Muslim in need of guidance

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  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     OP - January 14, 2014, 12:03 AM
    Greetings,

    Prior to last year, I had very little understanding of Islam and the Quran, and about 6 months ago I was (un)fortunate enough to stumble upon Naik, Yahya and co.'s claims to "scientific miracles in the Quran". After reading into the topic and weighing the arguments both for and against these extraordinary claims, I realised that they are, of course, bullshit. Furthermore, the refusal of the same people advocating the authenticity of these 'miracles' to acknowledge the case for human evolution struck me as somewhat ironic.

    That conclusion should have cemented my skepticism regarding the nature of the Quran's authorship, but sadly I've now encountered other claims to Quranic miracles, namely 'historical' (knowledge of past events that couldn't have been known to Muhammad), 'prophetical' (similar premise, but concerning future events), and of course the 'divine eloquence' argument. I highly suspect that the former two are the product of post-hoc rationalisation and heavily contingent on a false premise ('couldn't have been known at the time'), however the 'divine eloquence' argument does have me a little stumped. While I don't speak Arabic, I've perused a fair few forums, blogs and other sites frequented by Arabic speakers who seem to swear by the Quran's alleged linguistic miracle and inimitability. Their faith in this claim is compounded by Muhammad's illiteracy.

    I know deep down I should chalk those claims up as mere bullshit too (for example, if the Quran's eloquence is undoubtedly divine, why are there still native Arabic apostates and non-Muslims?), but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to be absolutely sure. We've all heard what the Quran claims will happen to non-believers in the afterlife. Even contemplating that as a possibility is agonising within itself.

    I understand that this forum has a fair few native and non-native Arabic speakers who, clearly, didn't find the 'divine eloquence' argument convincing. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on the matter, and maybe helping me with any doubts or worries I may have along the way, if that's ok  Smiley
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #1 - January 14, 2014, 12:20 AM
    Hey there kepticsay, welcome to the forum. Smiley

    Can you tell us a bit more about your background and how you got interested in the Qur'an? For someone who knew (and presumably cared) very little about Islam until a few months ago, your sudden fear of Islamic hell seems rather strange.

    Thanks. Afro
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #2 - January 14, 2014, 12:33 AM
    Quote from: kepticsay on January 14, 2014, 12:03 AM
    Arabic speakers who seem to swear by the Quran's alleged linguistic miracle and inimitability. Their faith in this claim is compounded by Muhammad's illiteracy.

    Shakespeare was a humble smalltown boy with miraculous linguistic ability.

    But Shakespeare didn't write Shakespeare, did he? Mohammed on the other hand...
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #3 - January 14, 2014, 12:48 AM
    Quote from: Luthiel on January 14, 2014, 12:20 AM
    Hey there kepticsay, welcome to the forum. Smiley

    Can you tell us a bit more about your background and how you got interested in the Qur'an? For someone who knew (and presumably cared) very little about Islam until a few months ago, your sudden fear of Islamic hell seems rather strange.

    Thanks. Afro


    Hi Luthiel!

    I'm a 21 year old student from the UK. I consider myself a Christian, albeit a very liberal one (I'm cool with the idea of God and Jesus being real, though I can't really say the same for the Bible and a lot of the topics it covers).

    I used to post on a very high traffic fitness forum. It's a good place to seek relevant advice and can be fun in small doses, but the quality of non-fitness related discussion is poor and it attracts a lot of very strange characters. I remember opening a thread where one Muslim poster had linked one of the 'scientific miracles in the Quran' websites. I was quite naive at the time and my critical thinking skills were pretty lacking, so I was a little shocked and surprised. I'd always assumed the Quran was nothing more than the ravings of some 7th century desert warlord. I did the usual digging around, and lo and behold stumbled upon the other alleged 'miracles'.

    With regards to Christianity, I fall into the 'annihilationist' camp (consider hell to be nonexistence/separation from God rather than a place of literal torment) and see God as a loving creator rather than a vindictive, deceiving psychopath, ergo diametrically opposed to the Quran's portrayal of such a figure. I have my own reasons for being a Christian (I won't delve into them too much here as I will probably be castigated for being a woo proponent and waste everyone's time) which I have no real reason to doubt, but I'm a little taken back by the amount of gusto with which I've seen Muslims on the internet throw their threats of hell and authenticity of Quranic miracles around with. Having seen the tactics, the way they handle cognitive dissonance, and the unparalleled mental gymnastics they use to construct their arguments and immunise themselves against logic, criticism and scientific evidence which flies in the face of their claims, I do of course realise that the majority of them are savagely delusional. That being said, the fact there seems to be so many of them, and that they speak with such conviction, has made me want to investigate their claims, even if they contradict my own beliefs.

  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #4 - January 14, 2014, 01:02 AM
    Thanks Smiley

    So, when you discovered the scientific miracles of the Qur'an, you were quite naive and your critical thinking skills were lacking at the time (six months ago); not so much that you couldn't realise the extraordinary claims were bullshit, but enough that the beliefs of Arabic speakers on a fair few forums, blogs and other sites have you stumped on the divine eloquence claim.

    And now you're asking other Arabic speakers on yet another forum to ease your doubts and worries and dispel your new-found fear of hell as described in the Qur'an.

    It sounds like your only option, aside from flipping a coin to decide which Arabic speakers on which internet forum to believe, is to learn Arabic, read the Qur'an and decide for yourself.
    The only thing we have to fear is fear itself
    - 32nd United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #5 - January 14, 2014, 01:15 AM
    Quote from: Luthiel on January 14, 2014, 01:02 AM
    Thanks Smiley

    So, when you discovered the scientific miracles of the Qur'an, you were quite naive and your critical thinking skills were lacking at the time (six months ago); not so much that you couldn't realise the extraordinary claims were bullshit, but enough that the beliefs of Arabic speakers on a fair few forums, blogs and other sites have you stumped on the divine eloquence claim.

    And now you're asking other Arabic speakers on yet another forum to ease your doubts and worries and dispel your new-found fear of hell as described in the Qur'an.

    It sounds like your only option, aside from flipping a coin to decide which Arabic speakers on which internet forum to believe, is to learn Arabic, read the Qur'an and decide for yourself.


    That's what I'm planning on doing at this rate, no joke. There's a fair few private colleges in my area offering Arabic language classes.

    Though to be honest, I doubt whether a lot of the "divine eloquence" proponents I encountered even spoke Arabic, or were just regurgitating things they'd heard without assessing it for themselves.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #6 - January 14, 2014, 01:31 AM
    Going with the assumption that you’ve never conversed with him before, once you’ve learned Arabic, what criteria will you be using to determine if the author of the Qur’an is indeed God?
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #7 - January 14, 2014, 01:37 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on January 14, 2014, 01:31 AM
    Going with the assumption that you’ve never conversed with him before,

    He's a Christian with a hotline to God. Same phone number, different extension. Simples.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #8 - January 14, 2014, 01:49 AM
    We've a few threads on the "miracle" claims, and members who can read and write Arabic. Though if it is a miracle from god it shouldn't be needed. Trust me, it's bullshit.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #9 - January 14, 2014, 01:59 AM
     parrot
    Welcome.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #10 - January 14, 2014, 02:09 AM
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5272.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4537.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25497.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16363.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16572.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25194.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25273.0

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25007.0

    I'm hoping some of those will help you out. Smiley
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #11 - January 14, 2014, 02:42 AM
    Just found this as well.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=19545.0
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #12 - January 14, 2014, 03:05 AM
    I've never heard the claims of historical knowledge known by Mohammad which was impossible for him to have known. Any examples?
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #13 - January 14, 2014, 03:12 AM
    Embryology miracle. And a pharaoh.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #14 - January 14, 2014, 03:17 AM
    I was under the impression that historical knowledge was aka history. Like Mohammad knew the details of the fall of the Han dynasty for example. Pharaoh is pretty vague. Any details beside a title/name which was know for centuries before Mohammad was born? The embryology I know about. Im not impressed by it to say the least.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #15 - January 14, 2014, 03:49 AM
    Both pharoah as well as the embryology miracle is deeply flawed than the rest of the miracles . I'm sure your worried that islam MIGHT be true (which it is not ) and if it is true then we are screwed . We hear everday from so called miracles .  Truth be told , the middle eastern news itself is highly unreliable and many moments of stupidity and ignorance .
    In the last two weeks my friend  told me one recent miracle reported by the saudi news . Miracle was : nasa confirmed sun will start rising from the west and muhammed phrophesized such occurance .
    Their news also show fake conversion of celebrities to islam such as in the case of cristiano ronaldo and messi .
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #16 - January 14, 2014, 04:33 AM
    To address the OP. A lot of religions have these type of miracle claims. You can look up biblical miracles just as easily as Islam. If you accept Islamic claims as easily you should accept the biblical ones as well. Once you look at some of these claims you will find either one of two things are in common. 1. The interpretation of the verse has been modified to fit into science. 2. The claim of science has been modified.

    As for the literary value of the Quran. Pick up one of the major works of Shakespeare. You will find the same kinds of literary value in words, phases, sentences as the Quran. Take a few literature classes which will teach you to identify symbolism, metaphor, ambiguity, and other literary devices in any piece of work. Once you have the knowledge to identify these devices you will find that use of such devices is common not only in everyday language but is the foundation of many forms of literature. I have been able to read various pieces of work which have many different messages with in 14 lines of text. None of these writer required God to do this for them.

  • Re: Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #17 - January 14, 2014, 04:57 AM
    Quote from: kepticsay on January 14, 2014, 12:03 AM
    Their faith in this claim is compounded by Muhammad's illiteracy.

    Asserted illiteracy. We are to just assume that the authors of the Quran were merely documenting the spoken words of an illiterate man, verbatim. We are to just assume, on no evidence at all, that the authors got it correct and that it was in no way altered to meet their own political ends, or indeed that they didn't simply contrive it themselves drawing from many available sources.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #18 - January 14, 2014, 04:59 AM
    Oral tradition show that being literate has no true bearing on ones ability to communicate with others.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #19 - January 14, 2014, 05:03 AM
    And are moreover notoriously subject to imprecision and embellishment.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #20 - January 14, 2014, 05:13 AM
    Hey wait a minute... Wasn't the Quran an oral tradition before it was codified. Opps  whistling2
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #21 - January 14, 2014, 05:34 AM
    Hi from a former Christian! I was in a very similar situation to you as well.

    I eventually realized that both Christianity and Islam had zero real positive evidence for either of them and plenty of negative evidence to go against their claims. I can assure you there are no scientific miracles in the Quran and many clear verses which contradict modern science. As for miraculous historical knowledge I don't know much about that but remember this is coming from a book that thought Alexander the Great was a Muslim!  Cheesy

    As for the fear of hell, I used to be scared of both Christian and Islamic hell, but after researching both its pretty clear the Bible and Quran are filled with enough errors that I was able to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that these are not divinely inspired.  And if any God was careless enough to write books with such clear errors and then send you to hell for not believing in them, I could never bring myself around to honestly worship this God. Plus if God was that deceptive and nasty, he might just have a change of mind and send all believers to hell just for the hell of it.   Wink
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #22 - January 14, 2014, 06:24 AM
    One religion cancelling out the other and vice versa . Its like combining both acid and base and the result is a neutral simple water .
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #23 - January 14, 2014, 07:35 AM
    My feeling is that you are enjoying a mild opiate of the people and have come across some very heavy stuff.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #24 - January 14, 2014, 09:22 AM
    you were probably presented with Hamza Tzortzis's linguistic miracle.
    This has not thoroughly been addressed yet, because the argument is so convoluted, so long, so stupid, so fallacious, and so intentionally obfuscational, that few people have thought it worthwhile to even begin cleaning up this mess.

    It is hard to identify 'the problem' with this argument, because there are in fact, at least a few hundred problems with it.
    Some of the premises rely on plagiarism and misinterpretation. Others rely on bare assertion. Most are irrelevant red herrings, and the rest is pseudo intellectual rambling and name dropping.

  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #25 - January 14, 2014, 11:54 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on January 14, 2014, 01:31 AM
    Going with the assumption that you’ve never conversed with him before, once you’ve learned Arabic, what criteria will you be using to determine if the author of the Qur’an is indeed God?


    Good question, and the truth is I don't know. I'd probably see first if it lives up to its reputation and completely demolishes anything written by Homer, Shakespeare, et al. and work from there I suppose.

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on January 14, 2014, 02:09 AM
    I'm hoping some of those will help you out. Smiley


    Will check them all out, thank you! Shout out to kutta for the links he provided by PM too

    Quote from: dr_sloth on January 14, 2014, 09:22 AM
    you were probably presented with Hamza Tzortzis's linguistic miracle.


    I'm aware of Tzortzi's shenanigans. His advocacy of Quranic science fell flat on its face which doesn't really do wonders for his credibility, but I didn't want to dismiss his 'linguistic miracle' claims on those grounds alone. A broken clock is still right twice a day (not that I'm saying the man has to be right about something).

    Is a thorough rebuttal to his claims in the works or is it really not worth the trouble as far as anyone is concerned?

    Quote from: bogart on January 14, 2014, 05:13 AM
    Hey wait a minute... Wasn't the Quran an oral tradition before it was codified. Opps  whistling2


    The rebuttal I've heard to this is that supposedly a lot of people had committed the verses to memory before it was written down, and that the amount of consensus between those people removed all reasonable doubt. Again, no idea how true this is, which is lazy on my part.

    Quote from: codehawk on January 14, 2014, 03:49 AM
    Both pharoah as well as the embryology miracle is deeply flawed than the rest of the miracles.
    ...
    Their news also show fake conversion of celebrities to islam such as in the case of cristiano ronaldo and messi .


    I've heard of Tzortzi's antics with his embryology paper which got demolished by the skeptics. And the follow-up article where he basically denounces the 'scientific miracles', but somehow clings to the idea of 'reconciling the Quran with nature', ergo not full of contemporary pseudoscience and outright bullshit (not sure if he was being sincere or a textbook case of damage control).

    I haven't really looked into the pharoah miracle. I read that it has its roots in Bucaille's book, which is pretty telling. There's an article debunking it on answering-islam.org, but I'm a little dubious about their methods since they lie on the same end of the fundie spectrum.

    I'm aware of the fake celebrity conversions - sometimes on youtube I see such videos popping up in the sidebar with some sensationalist, caps-locked title such as "RONALDO CONVERTS TO ISLAM".

    Quote from: codehawk on January 14, 2014, 06:24 AM
    One religion cancelling out the other and vice versa . Its like combining both acid and base and the result is a neutral simple water .


    Something about it reminds me of Schrodinger's cat. Both could be wrong, but at the very most, only one of them can be right.

    What does everybody make of the Sana'a manuscripts? On the one hand, I've heard it completely demolishes the claim that the Quran has remained unchanged since its conception, and on the other it only shows some insignificant variations in spelling.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #26 - January 14, 2014, 12:18 PM
    Quote
    Is a thorough rebuttal to his claims in the works or is it really not worth the trouble as far as anyone is concerned?


    yes, but the following is a summary of his argument. You can probably debunk it yourself. His argument simply does not come close to working. As well as every single premise being a failure, they don't even theoretically begin to point in the direction of the desired conclusion.
    Also keep in mind, that it doesn't need debunking. It needs proving. The ball is in his court, and all his work is ahead of him. He has to prove his claims, and most of them are simply ludicrous. What method for example, is he using to dertermine what "the productive capacity of the arabic language" is? Nobody presenting this argument would have any clue how to answer that.

    Quote from: dr_sloth on October 19, 2011, 04:46 PM
    the quran is not really poetry, and not really prose
    Like every other piece of writing ever, it chooses words and orders them in a specific way to have a meaning.
    It also uses some linguistic and rhetorical devices.
    no human can do this [apart from the human(s) that did]
    therefore the quran is a miracle


    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=18331.30
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #27 - January 14, 2014, 03:13 PM
    Have you ever considered the fact that it is not practical to learn a language just to discover if the claims of a religious preacher are true.

    What if every religion said that it's scripture was a miracle, you would end up spending your whole life learning Hebrew, Arabic, Sanskrit etc. etc., heck what if every religion said there is evidence sitting on the ocean floor that only they have seen and you need to go look for it or you will go to hell for not following their religion, would you do it? just in case it is true?

    There are so many ridiculous claims by all religions of evidence that nobody has to the time to look and study all of them.  An all-knowing intelligent creator of everything would know it is an unreasonable request for mankind to learn to be proficient in a completely foreign language in order to know if there is anything special so don't worry about it.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #28 - January 14, 2014, 05:08 PM
    well I imagine the productive capacity is anything written in Arabic that makes grammatical sense? I'm not sure.
  • Non-Muslim in need of guidance
     Reply #29 - January 14, 2014, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on January 14, 2014, 12:18 PM
    yes, but the following is a summary of his argument. You can probably debunk it yourself. His argument simply does not come close to working. As well as every single premise being a failure, they don't even theoretically begin to point in the direction of the desired conclusion.
    Also keep in mind, that it doesn't need debunking. It needs proving. The ball is in his court, and all his work is ahead of him. He has to prove his claims, and most of them are simply ludicrous. What method for example, is he using to dertermine what "the productive capacity of the arabic language" is? Nobody presenting this argument would have any clue how to answer that.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=18331.30


    I read somewhere that he doesn't even speak Arabic. Why is he making all these absurd claims? Does he get other people to do his dirty work for him, or is he just stark raving mad?

    Quote from: monstart on January 14, 2014, 03:13 PM
    Have you ever considered the fact that it is not practical to learn a language just to discover if the claims of a religious preacher are true.

    What if every religion said that it's scripture was a miracle, you would end up spending your whole life learning Hebrew, Arabic, Sanskrit etc. etc., heck what if every religion said there is evidence sitting on the ocean floor that only they have seen and you need to go look for it or you will go to hell for not following their religion, would you do it? just in case it is true?

    There are so many ridiculous claims by all religions of evidence that nobody has to the time to look and study all of them.  An all-knowing intelligent creator of everything would know it is an unreasonable request for mankind to learn to be proficient in a completely foreign language in order to know if there is anything special so don't worry about it.


    True. Why is it that the Quran's 'divine eloquence' is confined to the Arabic language? Do most great Arabic works get that easily lost in translation?
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