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Reply #420 - February 28, 2014, 02:25 AM

Siunaa, thank you for saying so before, but it was still not what you were looking for. Wish I could help more!

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 27, 2014, 06:37 PM
I know, I wasn't interested in the sense of miracle but just out of curiosity. I know that the beauty of the Quran used as a miracle is very invalid.
Other "objective" challenge muslims like to talk about is the amount of rhetorical devices. Not really sure why they claim it to be miracle but I would like still see text of similar size that makes some kind of sense and has more rhetorical devices. Again, not miracle, just interested.

I'm pretty sure it is attempted every so often, but most of the ones I've seen were attempted by ex-Muslims trying to prove a point and pretty much ignored regardless of their success...I can't find anything about the particular ones you mentioned, though. I'm sorry.

Also I think the reason why they consider it a miracle is that the Quran basically says, "You think that this isn't the word of God? Let's see you do better, jerk." -2:23 and things like 4:82 to a lesser extent. So as long as no one has officially won the approving nod of all Muslims worldwide for winning the challenge, the failure of someone to one-up the Quran is considered a miracle.
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Reply #421 - February 28, 2014, 02:30 AM

Quote from: bogart on February 27, 2014, 07:30 PM
Read some of Shakespeare's sonnets

Careful bogart, Hamza is talking about how Shakespeare isn't all that great lately, and no where near as great as the quran. I'm not sure if he really believes his reasons or is just lying.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #422 - February 28, 2014, 02:39 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on February 28, 2014, 02:30 AM
Careful bogart, Hamza is talking about how Shakespeare isn't all that great lately, and no where near as great as the quran. I'm not sure if he really believes his reasons or is just lying.

In Hamza's defense (may I never say that again), Leo Tolstoy, my favorite author of all time, also came down pretty hard on Shakespeare, and even wrote an essay about how Shakespeare really isn't anything worth reading.

I guess he doesn't sit well with some people (especially because everyone seems to forget that most of his works were designed to be entertaining plays)! Oh well. I like him.
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Reply #423 - February 28, 2014, 03:13 AM

Quote from: lua on February 28, 2014, 02:39 AM
In Hamza's defense (may I never say that again), Leo Tolstoy, my favorite author of all time, also came down pretty hard on Shakespeare, and even wrote an essay about how Shakespeare really isn't anything worth reading.

I find art theories telling me a piece is factually unlikable to be as odious as Muslims telling me the Quran is factually the best written thing ever. Both are talking through me and back at themselves. It's like they believe their peculiar and arbitrary preference to be the laws of nature.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #424 - February 28, 2014, 04:14 AM

Shakespeare is an easy example for someone wanting to learn the basics of literary analysis. He was used repeatedly in my entry level literature courses. Just going with someone I am familiar with.
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Reply #425 - February 28, 2014, 05:12 AM

Quote from: Ishina on February 28, 2014, 03:13 AM
I find art theories telling me a piece is factually unlikable to be as odious as Muslims telling me the Quran is factually the best written thing ever. Both are talking through me and back at themselves. It's like they believe their peculiar and arbitrary preference to be the laws of nature.

Exactly!

Saying a particular piece of literature isn't worth reading is like saying that chocolate icecream isn't worth eating because you happen to like vanilla.

The author who said that Shakespeare isn't worth reading was most likely arrogant and full of himself by assuming everyone's tastes in literature should be the same as his.

In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
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Reply #426 - February 28, 2014, 05:29 PM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on February 28, 2014, 02:24 AM
There is lots of Arabic poetry I love listening to. Such as this 52 seconds onwards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvyvMBN5l9U

Or this by Ibn Al-Qayyim:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmuu5Hc67FI

Thank you for the links, my friend.

Is the later one based on the Quran? For example the part: "O People of the paradise! Your Lord, Blessed and Exalted, requests you to visit him so rush to visit him. So they will say: "We hear and obey" Until when they hasten to their appointed places to finally reach the wide valley where they will all meet, and none of them will turn down the request of their caller." looks exactly like passages from the Quran. Or is this from the Quran: "Has He not already made our faces bright, scales heavy, entered us in the paradise" ?
Was anything from the Quran in that later poem? For some of it surely looked exactly like the Quran.

I didn't really like the first one that much, it sounded like the reciter lacked emotion.

Quote
Although I do love the sound of this. The Qurans Literary and Linguistic Miracle isnt based on Aestetic reception.

Ibn Ishaq recorded the reaction of one of the most fervent opponents of the Prophet(P), al-Walid bin Mugira:

They said, "He is a kahin." He said, "By God, he is not that, for we have seen the kahins, and his (speech) is not unintelligible murmuring (zamzama) and rhymed prose (sajc) of a kahin." "Then he is possessed (majnun)," they said. "No, he is not that," he said. "We have seen and known the possessed state, and here is no choking, spasmodic movements, and whispering." "Then he is a poet," they said. "He is not that," he replied. "We have known poetry in all its forms and meters, and this is not poetry." "Then he is a sorcerer," they said. "No, he is not that," he said, "for we have seen sorcerers and their sorcery, and here is no spitting and no knots."

[Ibn Ishaq, as-seyr wa al-Maghazi, Edited by Suhail Zakkar, p.151; Ibn Hisham, Sira, vol 1-2, pp.270-71]

It seems to be that most muslims cannot really agree what exactly is the supposed miracle. Some say it's unmatched in beauty, some say it's unmatched in amount of rhetorical devices and some say it's unique in literary style. This makes me doubt the validity of the supposed miracle even more since many muslims seem not to get what exactly is the miracle.

Thanks for the links, again, they are both better than majority of modern music

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Reply #427 - February 28, 2014, 05:37 PM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on February 28, 2014, 02:10 AM
Hello,

Majority of Tafsirs still remain only in the Arabic language.

1. Tanweer al-Miqbaas min Tafseer Ibn ‘Abbaas. However this is not authentic and cannot be attributed to the Sahabi Ibn Abbas (RA) (http://quran-errors.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/is-tafseer-ibn-abbaas-tanweer-al.html )

2. Tafsir Ibn Kathir - A summarised version has been translated into English.

3. Tafsir Al-Jalalayn.

Only 3 are translated. The rest I can send you the Arabic links but guess little point hehe.

Why they are not translated?
I've been reading Jalalayn and Kathir. There are very great online sites for those Tafsirs because in them you can search for exact verse. Are you Arabic speaker?

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Reply #428 - February 28, 2014, 07:57 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 28, 2014, 05:29 PM
Thank you for the links, my friend.

Is the later one based on the Quran? For example the part: "O People of the paradise! Your Lord, Blessed and Exalted, requests you to visit him so rush to visit him. So they will say: "We hear and obey" Until when they hasten to their appointed places to finally reach the wide valley where they will all meet, and none of them will turn down the request of their caller." looks exactly like passages from the Quran. Or is this from the Quran: "Has He not already made our faces bright, scales heavy, entered us in the paradise" ?
Was anything from the Quran in that later poem? For some of it surely looked exactly like the Quran.

No problem. The second one is a poem by Ibn Al-Qayyim describing Jannah. And about the day of judgement etc It doesnt contain any Quran but based on what we know from the Quran and Sunnah.

For example if I sat and wrote a poem about Jannah now. Thats pretty much what he did.

Quote
I didn't really like the first one that much, it sounded like the reciter lacked emotion.

Haha true.

Quote
It seems to be that most muslims cannot really agree what exactly is the supposed miracle. Some say it's unmatched in beauty, some say it's unmatched in amount of rhetorical devices and some say it's unique in literary style. This makes me doubt the validity of the supposed miracle even more since many muslims seem not to get what exactly is the miracle.

People will make various claims. When I was an atheist I read lots of nonsense. But you have sieve through it to the truth.

It isn't based on Aesthetic reception e.g. "This sounds so awesome to me".

It is based on a challenge to produce something like it - that matches it's linguistic style, usage of rhetorical devices etc

Something that the poets of the time of the Prophet SAW failed. And there skill of language boggles the mind.
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Reply #429 - February 28, 2014, 07:59 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 28, 2014, 05:37 PM
Why they are not translated?
I've been reading Jalalayn and Kathir. There are very great online sites for those Tafsirs because in them you can search for exact verse. Are you Arabic speaker?

May be numerous reasons why. Simply the size of them etc

Ibn Kathirs cool. Only downside is that it is a summarized version. The arabic is much larger.

Al-Jalalayn I find ok but would always cross reference with others. Plus he doesnt really provide much info.

Im learning.
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Reply #430 - February 28, 2014, 08:28 PM

I’m afraid I have no choice but to call BS here. We have no evidence whatsoever that any of the Arab poets failed at bringing revelation similar to the Qur’an. In fact, during Muhammad’s own time, there were several other prophets who taught what they claimed to be revelation and had their own followers. The reason not much of what they taught survived is because they were either killed or subdued.

Indeed, looking through the Qur’an itself, it is clear that Muhammad’s contemporaries did not think it was anything special. They called it “poetry,” “legends of the ancients” and “human speech.” According to the Qur’an itself, the majority of those overly moved by the Qur’an were the illiterate “ummiyyeen,” who made up most of Muhammad’s followers.

There are many, many people who have compiled works that are extremely similar to the Qur’an. It is not at all impossible. Anyone with a command of the Arabic language can do it if they are so inclined. I did it here: Surah Thuhr

Of course, any time anyone produces something similar to the Qur’an, Muslims will harp on about how it is not exactly like the Qur’an. This is foolish, as no work can ever be exactly like another work without actually being that work.

Essentially, the argument becomes “Nothing else is the Qur’an, therefore the Qur’an is from God.” There are no objective, verifiable means of knowing once the supposed challenge has been met.

Further, as less than 4% of the world’s population speak any version of Arabic, and no one speaks Qur’anic Arabic as a first language, only those who have devoted time to studying Qur’anic Arabic can take up the challenge. They are also the only ones who can judge it. They also happen to be overwhelmingly Muslims.

Do you not see the problem with this?
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Reply #431 - February 28, 2014, 08:32 PM

This video elucidates the point.

Is the quran a miracle?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHm2xigkBc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Reply #432 - February 28, 2014, 09:06 PM

Quote from: Ishina on February 28, 2014, 03:13 AM
I find art theories telling me a piece is factually unlikable to be as odious as Muslims telling me the Quran is factually the best written thing ever. Both are talking through me and back at themselves. It's like they believe their peculiar and arbitrary preference to be the laws of nature.

Yes. I skimmed that essay a long time ago. From what I recall, he found Shakespeare's characters to be painfully underdeveloped and flat and the plot unrealistic...although he also criticized his own work in the same way at the end of his life. I guess he was just a tough guy to please. But as for myself, I like both of them, even if it makes him spin in his grave.

Quote from: happymurtad on February 28, 2014, 08:28 PM

Further, as less than 4% of the world’s population speak any version of Arabic, and no one speaks Qur’anic Arabic as a first language, only those who have devoted time to studying Qur’anic Arabic can take up the challenge. They are also the only ones who can judge it. They also happen to be overwhelmingly Muslims.

+1 to everything you said, especially the Quranic Arabic part. In this way and countless others, Muslims hide behind old Arabic. It leaves a lot of the Muslims who do not know it or know it well (myself included at the time) with having to pretty much take their word for how magnificent the Quran's language was. And then it becomes easy to say, "And there was nothing like it." Chances are the average Muslim will either not know of any other works to compare it to, or not know precisely what makes it so spectacular, but, either way, they hold fast to the argument and the myth propagates itself.
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Reply #433 - February 28, 2014, 09:33 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on February 28, 2014, 08:28 PM
I’m afraid I have no choice but to call Bullshit here.....

Noo that is not bullshit ., Folks all over underdeveloped countries bullshit for Biogas..

That shit from that GREEK GEEK is filthy. It is no use for anyone except those foolish Muslims who run around this geek and who can not smell the shit.. So don't call it as bullshit., it is SHIT from a from Greek geek who converted to "Islam..

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Reply #434 - February 28, 2014, 09:38 PM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on February 28, 2014, 07:57 PM
No problem. The second one is a poem by Ibn Al-Qayyim describing Jannah. And about the day of judgement etc It doesnt contain any Quran but based on what we know from the Quran and Sunnah.

For example if I sat and wrote a poem about Jannah now. Thats pretty much what he did.

Haha true.
-
People will make various claims. When I was an atheist I read lots of nonsense. But you have sieve through it to the truth.

It isn't based on Aesthetic reception e.g. "This sounds so awesome to me".

It is based on a challenge to produce something like it - that matches it's linguistic style, usage of rhetorical devices etc

Something that the poets of the time of the Prophet SAW failed. And there skill of language boggles the mind.

Ok, so it wasn't from the Quran directly in any part? I thought it was
-
I don't really buy this claim without some proof. Sounds like Dawahganda. Who great poets have tried it [the challenge], where I can read their tries and how exactly they failed the challenge? Even if nobody met the challenge, would it prove the author to be divine?

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Reply #435 - February 28, 2014, 09:47 PM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on February 28, 2014, 07:59 PM
May be numerous reasons why. Simply the size of them etc

Ibn Kathirs cool. Only downside is that it is a summarized version. The arabic is much larger.

Al-Jalalayn I find ok but would always cross reference with others. Plus he doesnt really provide much info.

Im learning.

Ok, thanks. I was kinda surprised that I couldn't find them from anywhere but now I see why.
Maybe I then have to check these passages of Tafsirs in Arabic and ask some Arabs translate them for me. Just to understand the understanding of some of the earlier Muslims and see how authentic these scientific miracle claims really are, that Hamza, Zakir and many others push (most likely very unauthentic). It's not against any odds that these men create unauthentic understanding of Quranic verses based on their scientific knowledge and read these scientific miracles into the text because of their bias.

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Reply #436 - February 28, 2014, 09:54 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 28, 2014, 09:47 PM
Just to understand the understanding of some of the earlier Muslims and see how authentic these scientific miracle claims really are, that Hamza, Zakir and many others push (most likely very unauthentic).

You are wasting your time with Idiots in Islam Siunaa Maailmaa., there are much better folks that will explain you Islam without going in to its so-called religious literature

http://www.javedahmadghamidi.com/

Javed Ghamidi is a great guy to ask questions about Islam., Off course that doesn't mean Islam is right and he is unquestionable.

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Reply #437 - March 01, 2014, 12:00 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 28, 2014, 09:38 PM
Ok, so it wasn't from the Quran directly in any part? I thought it was  
-
I don't really buy this claim without some proof. Sounds like Dawahganda. Who great poets have tried it [the challenge], where I can read their tries and how exactly they failed the challenge? Even if nobody met the challenge, would it prove the author to be divine?

Lol. Nope its his own poetry. :-)

Heres some of the poets and attempts. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/

There lots of stuff in Arabic.
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Reply #438 - March 01, 2014, 12:03 AM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on February 28, 2014, 09:47 PM
Ok, thanks. I was kinda surprised that I couldn't find them from anywhere but now I see why.
Maybe I then have to check these passages of Tafsirs in Arabic and ask some Arabs translate them for me. Just to understand the understanding of some of the earlier Muslims and see how authentic these scientific miracle claims really are, that Hamza, Zakir and many others push (most likely very unauthentic). It's not against any odds that these men create unauthentic understanding of Quranic verses based on their scientific knowledge and read these scientific miracles into the text because of their bias.

Ok cools. But just because something is in x Tafsir doesn't mean its true.

One needs to analyse the authenticity of the sources used.

But good luck!
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Reply #439 - March 01, 2014, 12:25 AM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on March 01, 2014, 12:03 AM
Ok cools. But just because something is in x Tafsir doesn't mean its true.

One needs to analyse the authenticity of the sources used.

But good luck!

good point and good to see you here ThatMuslimGuy.,

So what makes a 1400 year old words/statements may or may not have thrown in to some conversation as authentic or indisputable statement ThatMuslimGuy??

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Reply #440 - March 01, 2014, 01:41 AM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on February 28, 2014, 07:57 PM
It is based on a challenge to produce something like it

Remember my last post to you?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #441 - March 01, 2014, 09:41 AM

Quote from: ThatMuslimGuy on March 01, 2014, 12:00 AM

Heres some of the poets and attempts. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/

There lots of stuff in Arabic.

Thanks for the link!
I didn't really see much of the attempts, mainly just telling that they failed without actually providing any examples.
There was Musaylimah (who seemed to be utterly terrible at poetry) and Al-Marri, who didn't even really try to meet the challenge according to this article. I agree that Musaylimah's poems were bad, but I didn't really see how Al-Marri's verse was not comparable to the Quran. The text says that the author gives 12 proofs... So why not actually give any of the proofs but to say that some other guy proved?

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Reply #442 - March 01, 2014, 09:50 AM

I saw this as interesting in the link:

Quote
Jewish scholars in Arab lands for the first time in history acquired the tools for proper contexual study of the scriptures. Islam had spread the tenets of rationalism, mediating in part the philosophical teachings of classical Greece.[24]

In addition, Arab grammarians had developed a systematic method for analyzing the style and the structure of classical Arabic, the language of the Koran. This enabled them not only to interpret the Koran but also to compose new works in the strict standards of the classical idiom.[25]

Jews in Arab lands had the potential to become comparative semitic linguists.[26]

Jews who studied Arabic language and literature, as well as other academic disciplines, learned the new linguistic science and desired to exploit it in their exegesis of the Bible and the analysis of Hebrew grammar. Only those who knew Arabic grammar developed the proper understanding of the Hebrew verb as the stem built upon three consonants. Hebrew verb stems in which the letters alef, vav and yod appear for example, do not display these weak consonants in all forms. These weak consonants do appear in the various forms of Arabic verb, However. Jewish scholars with linguistic sophistication realized that the weak consonants were part of the Hebrew verb even where they are not evident. Jewish exegetes, such as those in France, who did not read Arabic, failed to comprehend the triconsonantal basis of the Hebrew verb-stem and as a result, confused certain stems and misinterpreted them. C'est la vie. Characteristic of the Spanish Jewish scholars was their superior interest and training in linguistic analysis, a benefit of having grown up in an Arabic milieu.[27]

His (Rabbi Saadiah) Arabic translation of the Bible, however continues in use as the official version of Jews from Arab lands. It is also a mine of original insight into the meaning of difficult Hebrew words and phrases in the Bible, of which the modern scholars have barely taken advantage.[28]

(Ibn Janah's) two-volume analysis of biblical vocabulary, grammar, and style remains the most brilliant and valuable contribution of all time to the study of biblical language. The two volumes The Book of Roots and The Book of Embroidery (his figure for grammar) exist only in the original Arabic and a medieval Hebrew translation.[29]

Any more information about this? Anyone?

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Reply #443 - March 01, 2014, 10:45 AM

Siunaa

I don't know where you sourced the quote from, but it's somewhat hilariously overblown and bears little relationship to history. The idea that only Jews who knew Arabic grammar could properly understand Hebrew is an utterly false and ignorant assertion. It also fails to acknowledge that Jewish and Christian scholars were key figures in the elaboration of Arabic linguistics in the first place.

It's certainly true that there was a fruitful intellectual interplay in the field of linguistic scholarship in the medieval era, as judged by the standards of its day, and there is an undoubtedly original contribution made by muslim scholars.

Ibn Janah is a marginal figure in the history of Jewish biblical analysis and interpretation - the citation about him is absurd and overblown.

But the other question that you should ask is what are muslim scholars doing in the contemporary world with regards to the linguistic analysis of the text of the Quran - to what extent has there been any integration of philology, comparative linguistics, literary analysis, textual analysis into modern scholarship. This leads on to the secondary question: why are all these apologetic tracts so heavily focussed on the thinkers and scholarship of the classical and medieval era - had all the necessary knowledge been adduced by them, and that there's no need for any further original thinking or new scholarship?
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Reply #444 - March 01, 2014, 12:05 PM

Quote
Siunaa

I don't know where you sourced the quote from, but it's somewhat hilariously overblown and bears little relationship to history.

Hi Josephus!

The quote is from link given by TheMuslimGuy in reference to inimitability of Quran. Yesterday 6:00 PM in the internet site Islamic Awareness.

Quote
The idea that only Jews who knew Arabic grammar could properly understand Hebrew is an utterly false and ignorant assertion.

Yeah, sounds weird. Is there any truth that the Jews without Arabic training didn't understand the verbs correctly?

Quote
It also fails to acknowledge that Jewish and Christian scholars were key figures in the elaboration of Arabic linguistics in the first place.

Really? More information about this?

Quote
Ibn Janah is a marginal figure in the history of Jewish biblical analysis and interpretation - the citation about him is absurd and overblown

I found this from the Wikipedia about Jonah Ibn Janah:

He was trained as a physician and is mentioned elsewhere as the author of a medical text, but seems to have found his true calling in the investigation of the Hebrew language and in rabbinical literature scriptural exegesis. Although he wrote no actual commentary on the Hebrew Bible, his philological works exercised the greatest influence on Judaic exegesis and form the basis of many modern interpretations. His work is considered to have laid the foundations for scholarly Biblical exegesis Harv Glatzer 1964.
Jona's first work, al Mustalha Complement, is a critique and expansion of the work of Judah ben David Hayyuj, the founder of systematic Hebrew grammar studies. He is best known for the Kitab al-Anqih ("Book of Exact Investigation"), which is divided into two parts the Kitab al-luma ("Book of the Many Coloured Flower Beds") and the Kitab al usul Book of the Roots. The first focuses on the grammar of Hebrew, the second its lexicon. Rabbi Jonah's last work, his Kitab al Tashwir Book of Refutation, is largely lost.

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Reply #445 - March 01, 2014, 01:24 PM

I would like to ask about the Alif-Laam-Meem stuff. How do you [all] understand them?

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Reply #446 - March 01, 2014, 01:50 PM

Scholars have been debating the true meaning of Alif Lam Meem for centuries. No one, however, has realized that it is actually not three letters, but a single word. A sound, actually. "Alm..." It's the sound Muhammad made as he paused to think for a moment about what nonsense he would dictate to his gullible followers. It's the equivalent to our "umm..."
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Reply #447 - March 01, 2014, 02:07 PM

You cannot be serious?

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Reply #448 - March 01, 2014, 02:17 PM

Quote from: happymurtad on March 01, 2014, 01:50 PM
....... actually. "Alm..." It's the sound Muhammad made as he paused to think for a moment about what nonsense he would dictate to his gullible followers. It's the equivalent to our "umm..."

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on March 01, 2014, 02:07 PM
You cannot be serious?

Siunaa Maailmaa, Allah says in Quran "One should NOT ask what it means"., if you don't understand some verses of Quran . just say "Allah knows the best"

You can not expect to have meanings or extract meaning for some guy's coughing, sneezing and yodelling sounds..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B00nfVc4FPI

that girl's yodelling sounds is as beautiful as Quran..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- ibn Bilal
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Reply #449 - March 01, 2014, 02:35 PM

Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on March 01, 2014, 02:07 PM
You cannot be serious?

Why do you think so many surahs start with Ha Meem? It's really "hmm.." And Qaf was just Muhammad clearing his throat.
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