Help Me!
Reply #546 - March 23, 2014, 12:52 PM
I wrote this to clear my thoughts on geocentricism and left some irrelevant praises and sentences away from the quotes:
Islam Geocentric:
1. CLAIMS
FOR:
"It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out its (their) stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning." 10:5
"He has subjected the sun and the moon (to continue going round)! Each running (its course) for a term appointed." 13:2
"See you not that Allah merges the night into the day, and merges the day into the night, and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running its course for a term appointed." 31:29
"Have you not seen how your Lord spread the shadow. If He willed, He could have made it still then We have made the sun its guide." 25:45
"And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed).
And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk.
It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit." 36:38-
"And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating." 21:33
"The sun and the moon run on their fixed courses calculated with measured out stages for each." 55:5
"And by the sun and its brightness, And by the moon as it follows it, And by the day as it shows up brightness, And by the night as it conceals it" 91:1-
••These passages seem to fit idea of sun circling the earth. The passages continuously refer to sun and the moon like you would assume from geocentricist. One can only wonder why these passages look geocentric if they in fact tried to meet facts instead of ancient beliefs. Indeed, third passage seems to put sun, night, moon and day in the very same context. This passage mentions sun's course along with moon's course, night and day. If it speaks about the actual course of the sun which has absolutely no connection to night and day, it's utterly terrible place to mention it.
Fourth passage mentions spreading of the shadow, making it still and the sun. Do this prove geocentric view in Quran? Nope.
Does it look like geocentric? Yes.
Fifth passage once again speaks about the course of sun which indeed exists. But saying it speaks about the actual course instead of ancient belief of sun circling the earth is stretch. One can only scratch her head if this is supposed to fit science. Why mention the course next to course of moon [which is absolutely different kind of course] AND further mention that it's not for sun to overtake the moon. No divine inspiration needed in order to see that if the author of Quran truly knew the facts about sun & moon and wished to make eternal & universal message, that passage would not exist in this book.
Surah 91 also claims that moon follows the sun. It's true of course, but the way it is represented fits better with geocentric view. Why would it otherwise once again mention day and night within the same context and even more, why does it only say how moon is following the sun? Why not mention earth following the sun also? Or mention moon following the earth?
Further point is that Quran mentions sun's setting and rising multiple times. Why I don't quote them? Well, I don't quote them because they are in context where even scientist might use such words for poetic purposes. That being said, we have these things with us:
a) Quran mentioning sun within the context of day, night and moon
b) Quran mentioning sun's orbit without clarifying that it doesn't orbit the earth
c) Quran mentioning sunset and sunrise [but they could be poetic references so I let them pass]
Based on these, we have at best very badly written and unclear reference to scientific fact and at worst we have geocentric view.
2.1 CLAIMS
AGAINST:
"He wraps ((yukawwiru)) the night over the day and wraps ((yukawwiru)) the day over the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running for an appointed term." 39:5
"It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float ((yasbahoona)), each in an orbit." 39:40
"And by the sun and its brightness, And by the moon as it follows it, And by the day as it shows up brightness, And by the night as it conceals it" 91:1-
According to some muslims, these passages together are (clear?) reference against geocentricism. The claim is that 'yukawwiru' comes from root word meaning: 'To cover up a spherical object', thus meaning that earth is spherical and also being best word to describe earths movement around the sun. Yasbahoona on the other hand, according to them, means: 'To move with ones own action without intervention from anyone else', thus implying that the sun moves around the galaxy independently without need of other celestial bodies. Lastly, Surah 91 means that the movement of the earth is responsible for the brightness of the sun and the movement of sun isn't responsible for night and day.
Based on these, Quran is actually against false view of those times.
2.1 MY
COMMENT:
I have hard time grasping the conclusions made by some muslims in regards of these passages. I don't see anything that describes heliocentricism nor anything refuting geocentricism. I give reasons why.
First it mentions word yukawwiru. I wouldn't be (based on experience) surprised if the definition given wouldn't even be true but either be stretch or pure lie. Just for the sake of argument, I take it as it is given. So now we have "proof" that the earth is spherical. It still doesn't refute geocentricism even if fully agreeing with their definition, which is big 'if'.
Yasbahoona is same in the sense that I wouldn't be too surprised by totally untrue definition. I still take it just for the sake of argument. They claim yasbahoona fits facts because it implies sun's independent movement around the galaxy instead of the earth. So, what about the moon? Moon "yasbahoona" too, so how do you then just pick the sun? Does moon independently move around the galaxy also? What about night and day "yashaboona"ing the galaxy independently?
The third passage is really hard to use as proof against geocentric model. How exactly does it contradict sun going around the earth? How does it claim that the morning brightness of sun is shown by the movement of the earth? I don't know but that's the claim.
Unsuprisingly, desperate defense looks desperate. Remember that those three passages were used by MUSLIMS TO DEFEND ISLAM and they include the same geocentric problems (referring to moon & sun moving without distinction, referring to moon following the sun and how sun won't overtake the moon). So not "islamophobia" or lies against Islam but actual passages used by muslims themselves.
2.2 CLAIMS
AGAINST:
Some muslims have went as far as saying that "sun floating in a orbit is remarkable for book in 7th century and makes one wonder what could have been the inspiration of such knowledge", implying that it was so far ahead of its time that divine author is necessary. Furthermore Quran stated that these are floating instead of riding in camel's back like 7th century arab would have claimed, implying divine author.
Unlike geocentric model would permit, Quran claims that sun and moon float in their OWN courses instead of running in one course. When Quran says that they are "floating in exactly computed courses" it means that both individual courses don't overlap each other and therefore sun won't catch up with the moon.
2.2 MY
COMMENTS:
It's quite remarkable that muslim would claim that sun's movement is remarkable knowledge for 7th century arab. There's absolutely nothing remarkable about it. It would have been more "remarkable" if the Quran clearly stated that moon orbits earth which orbits the sun which floats in larger orbit. But is it remarkable that the Quran claims that sun has orbit? Nope.
What amazes me even more is that someone seriously can claim that not mentioning camel, back and riding is implying divine knowledge. I don't know if arabs believed that sun was camelback riding and I don't really care. Stating that sun floats in course is not divine knowledge and Mohammed probably wasn't so stupid that he couldn't have realized how stupid the idea of some kind of super camel carrying the sun was without God revealing it to him.
3. CLAIMS
FROM TAFSIR:
13:2
Al-Jalayn: made subservient, the sun and the moon, each one, of them, moving, along its course, until [the conclusion of] an appointed time, that is, [until] the Day of Resurrection.
Kathir: It was said that the sun and the moon continue their course until they cease doing so upon the commencement of the Final Hour / It was also said that the meaning is: until they settle under the Throne of Allah after passing the other side of the earth. So when they, and the rest of the planetary bodies reach there, they are at the furthest distance from the Throne.
31:29
Al-Jalalayn: He has disposed the sun and the moon, each, of the two, running, in its course, to an appointed term, namely, [to] the Day of Resurrection
Kathir: It was said that this means, each runs within its set limits, or it means until the Day of Resurrection; both meanings are correct. / It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it seeks permission from its Lord, and soon it will be said: "Go back from whence you came. / The sun is like flowing water, running in its course in the sky during the day. When it sets, it travels in its course beneath the earth until it rises in the east. (last is attributed to Ibn Abbas, second to Mohammed himself)
25:45
Al-Jalalayn: He extends the [twilight] shadow?, from the point of daybreak to the point of sunrise. For had He, your Lord, willed, He would have made it still, ever-present so that it does not disappear with the rising of the sun. Then We made the sun an indicator of it, [of] the shadow; were it not for the sun the shadow would not have been known.
Kathir: means, were it not for the sun rising, it would not be there, for a thing can only be known in contrast to its opposite. Qatadah and As-Suddi said, "The sun is a guide which follows the shade until the shade disappears.’'
36:38-40
Al-Jalalayn: nor is it right for — the sun to catch up with the moon, and so appear together with it at night, nor may the night outrun the day, and thus it [the night] never arrives before the latter ends
Kathir: When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. / (The second view) is that this refers to when the sun's appointed time comes to an end, which will be on the Day of Resurrection, when its fixed course will be abolished, it will come to a halt and it will be rolled up. / Mujahid said, "Each of them has a limit which it does not transgress or fall short of. When the time of one comes, the other goes away, and when the time for one to prevail comes, the time of the other ceases.'' `Ikrimah said concerning the Ayah / means, night and day, the sun and the moon, all of them are floating, i.e., revolving, in their orbits in the heaven. This was the view of Ibn `Abbas, `Ikrimah, Ad-Dahhak, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and `Ata' Al-Khurasani. Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, and others among the Salaf said, "In an orbit like the arc of a spinning wheel.’'
91:1-
Al-Jalalayn: By the sun and her morning light, and [by] the moon when it follows her, rising after she has set, and [by] the day when it reveals her, as it rises [high], and [by] the night when it enshrouds her, covering her up with its darkness (idhā, ‘when’, in all three instances is an absolute adverbial, operated by the verbal action of the oath).
Kathir: (By the sun and Duhaha.) "This means, by its light.'' Qatadah said, (wa Duhaha.) "The whole day.'' Ibn Jarir said, "The correct view is what has been said, `Allah swears by the sun and its daytime, because the clear light of the sun is daytime.’' (By the moon as it Talaha.) Mujahid said, "It follows it (the sun).'' Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, (By the moon as it Talaha.) "It follows the day.'' Qatadah said, "`as it Talaha (follows it)' is referring to the night of the Hilal (the new crescent moon). When the sun goes down, the Hilal is visible.'' Concerning Allah's statement, (By the day as it Jallaha.) Mujahid said, "When it illuminates.'' Thus, Mujahid said, (By the day as it Jallaha.) "This is similar to Allah's statement, (By the day as it Tajalla.) (92:2)'' And they have said concerning Allah's statement, (By the night as it Yaghshaha.) meaning, when it covers the sun, which takes place when sun disappears and the horizons become dark.
4. FURTHER
POINTS:
One could argue that since Tafsirs seem to be clear that when Quran says that the sun and the moon run their courses for appointed term, it refers to until day of resurrection and not day & night, it’s not proof of geocentricism. They don’t seem to clearly mention that the sun and the moon run both around the earth but leave also possibility for sun orbiting different than around the earth. But to me the evidence of geocentric Islam far outweighs heliocentric Islam.
I ask many stupid questions frequently.
I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
So forgive me and answer me
Topic: Help Me!