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 Topic: Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?

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  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     OP - February 11, 2014, 07:29 PM

    Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?

    Some theists say that atheism is a faith. This seems to be a way for them to claim that atheists are doing the same thing that theists do when concluding that there does or does not exist one or more gods. But this is a mistake.

    The key issue here is how a person comes to conclusions. Does he come to conclusions by faith or by reason? Concluding by faith means believing an idea to be true without considering criticism of the idea. It means seeking confirmation of the idea. In contrast, concluding by reason means believing an idea only because it has survived all known criticism.

    So, when theists claim that atheism is a faith, they are effectively cheating. They are being dishonest about the method by which the conclusions were made. They are claiming that the methods are equivalent, when they aren’t. One of these methods values criticism, while the other doesn’t.


    Fallibility

    To illustrate the differences between these methods, and which method is best, let’s consider some things we know. We know that people are fallible. And that that means that any of our ideas could be wrong. This is why it's important for everybody to keep all their ideas on the table, open to criticism, open to revision. Now if a person keeps some of his ideas shielded from criticism, then for those ideas that are in fact wrong, it’s impossible for him to find that out. So believing an idea by faith means having no means of finding out if the idea is wrong.

    In contrast, believing an idea by reason does not have this problem. A person’s beliefs should be the ideas that have survived all known criticism. And those beliefs should be open to revision when new criticism is found.

    So belief by reason accounts for fallibility while belief by faith does not.


    How to choose between rival ideas

    Another difference between these methods is related to how one chooses between rival ideas. If you have two rival ideas, that means that both of them are intended to solve the same problem. Now, deciding between the rivals by reason means looking for a criticism that could rule out one of the ideas but not the other. So, if a criticism is found that explains why one of the rival ideas fails to solve the intended problem, then the criticism can be used to rule out one of the rival ideas, necessarily leaving the other intact.

    Now let’s consider what it means to decide between rival ideas by faith. Since believing by faith means seeking confirmation instead of criticism, the only means one could have of choosing between rivals is arbitrarily. To illustrate this, consider what it means for one of the ideas to be ‘confirmed.’ The confirmation of the first rival idea does not explain anything about the second rival. In other words, a confirmation of the first rival idea does not constitute a criticism of the second. So a confirmation doesn’t break the symmetry between the rival ideas. So how is it that a person still uses confirmation as a means to decide between rival ideas? He’s doing it by feeling. He’s choosing the idea that feels best to him, and he’s seeking confirmation of that idea as a means to justify his choice. Often, the person chooses by feeling, and then seeks confirmation afterwards. Or, for some people, the feeling itself is treated as the confirmation.

    The point here is that confirmation doesn’t work as a means of finding out the better idea between rival ideas. Confirming one of the ideas does nothing to criticize the other idea, so confirmation can’t break the symmetry between them. Only a criticism can break the symmetry. What kind of criticism? One that criticizes one of the rival ideas but not the other.


    Feelings as justification

    Consider what it means to believe an idea by faith in the context of getting angry. Let’s say that you jumped to conclusions in response to somebody saying something to you. Whatever the intent of the person, you could be wrong about your interpretation of his intent. Your sensation of anger should not be used as a means to have faith in (aka trust) your interpretation. Maybe the person had no malicious intent. Maybe he wanted to help you as opposed to wanting to hurt you.

    This is about first impressions. If your first impression comes with a strong emotional/intuitional sensation, that doesn’t mean that it’s correct. It could be wrong. And if you act on it before checking it for error, then you are ignoring that it might be wrong. So it’s important to check for flaws with the idea, as a means of accounting for the possibility of it being wrong.

    First impressions, like all other ideas, are fallible, so people shouldn’t act on them without first checking for criticism. One type of criticism of a first impression is another explanation that fits the evidence, an explanation that rivals the first impression. It’s a criticism because if both the first impression and the second explanation are compatible with all the existing evidence, then that means both explanations are wrong since neither of them is better than its rival, in the sense that both of them equally fit the evidence. In order to rule one of them out, you’d have to find another piece of evidence that contradicts one of them but not the other.


    This affects all areas of a person’s life

    This way of thinking, of choosing by faith, affects all areas of a person's life. Lots of people make huge life decisions based on the sensations they get surrounding those decisions. They get married to people because of their feelings while ignoring the glaring problems surrounding the relationships — and they use their feelings as confirmation that their decisions are right. They choose not to abort pregnancies for feelings of love of unborn children while ignoring things like whether or not the family situation is opportune for the unborn children and for the parents. They switch jobs based on feelings of excitement of a new job, often trading to a worse situation than compared to the previous job, usually in a type of scenario where the person could have found out the danger before quitting the previous job. These are all very dangerous situations that could have been avoided. Thinking in this way, of making decisions without trying to lookout for danger, can only be expected to lead to a long string of major disasters. What's needed is a way to think about things where dangerous results can be avoided instead of ignored. What’s needed is a way of thinking that doesn’t seek confirmation, and instead, seeks criticism.


    Uncertainty

    Deciding things by faith is a way to deal with uncertainty. Since people are fallible, that means that we can’t be absolutely certain about any of our ideas. And choosing by faith is a way to deal with the uncertainty, in the sense that it’s a way to stop thinking about it, to stop thinking about being uncertain. But this is a mistake. Not thinking about it doesn’t actually help. All that does is temporarily suspend one’s feelings about the uncertainty. If the decision was wrong, then whatever harm it was causing is going to come up again in the future. And burying your thoughts about it isn’t going to help you when the problem comes up again.


    Conventional advise about uncertainty

    There is a lot of conventional advise that is consistent with the idea of believing by faith. The advise says that second-guessing a decision is something that should be avoided. It says that one shouldn't think critically about a decision after having made the decision, as a means of feeling better about the possibility of the decision being wrong. But this is a misguided way of dealing with uncertainty. It's like saying: Since I can't be certain about my idea, I need a way to act that accounts for the bad feeling I get when I'm uncertain about a decision I made. This is a bad approach because it's not giving any method for dealing with the uncertainty, and instead it's only giving advice on how to feel in spite of the uncertainty. The problem I see with this is that following this advice means ignoring criticism of one's ideas. It means blocking out of your mind that your decision could be wrong. It means blocking out of your mind that the case might be that you should change your mind.

    To clarify the issue, let's consider what it means to stop second-guessing in the context of a murder case. The first guess is the detective's first suspect. Second-guessing means looking for other possible suspects that could have committed the murder instead. It means looking for other types of theories like maybe it was a suicide, or maybe it was an accident caused by one or more mistakes made by the accused person and/or other people. If the detective doesn't second-guess his first guesses, then he can't possibly find the truth, unless he happened to get lucky on his first guess. So avoiding second-guessing means having faith in a past decision. Do you want to be a suspect in a case where the detective follows this conventional advice that second-guessing is something to be avoided? If you were wrongly convicted of a murder, would you want our judicial system to avoid second-guessing (aka appealing) the case?

    Consider the equivalent situation in the context of the medical profession. Recently a women died the night of being released from the hospital. The physician had decided that it was ok for her to be released from the hospital, and immediately after making the decision he second-guessed himself. But instead of acting on this, he looked to the nurse for confirmation of his decision, to which she confirmed that it was the right decision. But it was the wrong decision. Not only was it the wrong decision, the physician was also wrong to seek confirmation as a means of burying his thoughts of uncertainty. Instead, he should have sought criticism. He should have thought it good to second-guess himself, instead of thinking that it was bad to do so.


    How to deal with uncertainty

    My description might not be giving the conventional advice a fair analysis. I think the conventional advise says that you should second-guess a little bit, and then at some point to stop second-guessing and decide on your best knowledge. But the problem with this conventional approach is that it's not clear about how to arrive at an idea that can be considered 'the best knowledge.' It doesn't explain that the best idea as a proposal solution for a particular problem is one that refutes all of it's existing rivals. It doesn't explain how to go about criticizing one's ideas. And it doesn't explain how to update one's ideas in the future as new ideas and criticisms are created.

    Consider the context of a murder case again. The court system is designed so that the person who is accused get’s a defense. This is a way to ensure that there is somebody trying to look for criticisms of the idea that the accused person committed a murder. The court system is also setup so that any conviction can be appealed. This is because we know that we could have been wrong about the conviction. Our best knowledge to date, at the time of the conviction, was good enough to convict, but we know that it's possible that a new piece of evidence, or a new analysis, could change the dynamics of the case such that the previous theory is now refuted, in favor for a new theory. This shows that our judicial system is designed to account for uncertainty. And this is a way of thinking, an attitude, that individuals can have to.

    So the conventional advice is telling us how to feel better about possibly being wrong (aka uncertain), but it doesn't address the underlying issue, that it's ok to be wrong since that's part of the human condition. Being wrong is normal. It's common. The important thing isn't that you're wrong, or that you could be wrong, but rather it's how you deal with the fact that you could be wrong, and how you deal with situations where you have criticism of your ideas. Do you seek confirmation for your ideas or do you seek criticism? Do you block out things from your mind or do you change your mind about your ideas when you do find out that you're wrong?

    More importantly, finding out that you're wrong shouldn't be seen as a bad thing because it’s actually good -- you went from being wrong, to being right, about that one thing. If you get a bad feeling when second-guessing your ideas, that's an indication that you have the wrong attitude, the wrong philosophy towards mistakes. What's needed is an attitude that matches the human condition, an attitude of enjoying criticism, an attitude of enjoying finding out that you're wrong. Why? Because finding out that you're wrong is the first step towards correcting your mistake. It's an opportunity to improve. It's an opportunity to evolve.


    So belief by faith is the wrong way to treat ideas because it doesn’t account for the fact that we are fallible. It ignores the problem of uncertainty. It ignores danger. And belief by reason does not have this problem. It does account for fallibility — it does account for the problem of uncertainty — it does lookout for danger.
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #1 - February 14, 2014, 02:49 AM

    [Edit: Something that is implied by the ideas in this essay is that it would be a mistake to take any of what I say for granted. I mean, don't take any of what I say on faith. You should come to your own conclusions. Make your own judgments.]
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #2 - February 14, 2014, 03:08 AM

    Isn't calling atheism a faith oxymoronic?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #3 - February 14, 2014, 01:59 PM

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris
    Isn't calling atheism a faith oxymoronic?

    No. Atheism just means not believing that there exists one or more gods. This doesn't specify HOW one came to the conclusion that there's no god(s). It's possible for a person to believe it on faith -- in the sense that he didn't come to his own conclusions by considering the arguments against god, and the counter-arguments to those, and where instead, he just adopted (without question) the popular view within his community.
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #4 - February 14, 2014, 02:14 PM

    "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color." - Don Hirschberg
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #5 - February 14, 2014, 02:28 PM

    Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?

    ..........

    well that is all right ., If  faith head  says that  to me and if I were you,   I will take that as compliment..

    when all the existing religions are faiths of "IDIOTS" ., It is fine if these IDIOTS say to  those folks who don't follow any religions   "Atheism"  as faith of  INTELLECTUALS

    that is fine with me RamiRustom...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #6 - February 14, 2014, 04:33 PM

    Quote from: yeezevee
    Quote from: Rami
    Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?

    well that is all right ., If  faith head  says that  to me and if I were you,   I will take that as compliment..

    when all the existing religions are faiths of "IDIOTS" ., It is fine if these IDIOTS say to  those folks who don't follow any religions   "Atheism"  as faith of  INTELLECTUALS

    that is fine with me RamiRustom...

    But it's misleading. And that means more people will get the wrong idea. I think it's better to use language in such a way to lead to more people understanding (i.e. not getting the wrong idea).
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #7 - February 14, 2014, 05:35 PM

    Isn't calling atheism a faith oxymoronic?

    Yes it is.
    Definiton of faith: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith

    I do not see what set of values, body of dogma etc a group of atheists hold because of their atheism. It's ridiculous. 

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #8 - February 14, 2014, 05:46 PM

    Calling atheism a faith is like calling "off" a TV channel.
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #9 - February 14, 2014, 06:13 PM

    Calling atheism a religion is like calling masturbating in the snow a winter olympic sport.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #10 - February 14, 2014, 06:17 PM

    Calling atheism a religion is like calling a tissue paper that you just used to wipe your arse after you've had a large shit and then unfolded so that the brown stain patterns appear to have taken on the form of a butterfly a 'work of art'.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #11 - February 14, 2014, 06:28 PM

    'atheism is a religion' is a comfort tool for those who don't like the implications of a critique of religion that is robust and unapologetic.

     Basically, its a load of bollocks.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #12 - February 14, 2014, 06:54 PM

    Calling atheism a religion is like using a used condom and calling it recycling.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #13 - February 14, 2014, 06:58 PM

     Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #14 - February 14, 2014, 07:16 PM



    Quote
    Quote
    1)  Christians (total 2-6)   1,955,229,000       33.7        1
    2)  Roman Catholics            981,465,000       16.9
    3)  Protestants                404,020,000        7.0
    4)  Orthodox                   218,350,000        3.8
    5)  Anglicans                   69,136,000        1.2
    6)  Other Christians           282,258,000        4.9

    7)  Muslims                  1,126,325,000       19.4        2
    Cool  Non-religious              886,929,000       15.3        3
    9)  Hindus                     793,076,000       13.7        4
    10) Buddhists                  325,275,000        5.6        5
    11) Atheists                   222,195,000        5.6        6
    12) Chinese folk religionists  220,971,000        3.8        7
    13) New Religionists           106,016,000        1.8        8
    14) Ethnic Religionists        102,945,000        1.8        9
    15) Sikhs                       19,508,000        0.3       10
    16) Jews                        13,866,000        0.2
    17) Spiritists                  10,293,000        0.2
    18) Baha'is                      6,404,000        0.1
    19) Confucians                   5,086,000        0.1
    20) Jains                        4,920,000        0.1
    21) Shintoists                   2,898,000         --
    22) Other Religionists           1,952,000         --
    23) Parsees                        191,000         --
    24) Mandeans                        45,000  

           --
    http://web.ovc.edu/peppercenter/survey/world_demo.htm

    So that is from this link


    You guys don't have numbers .. YOU LOOSE THEY WIN.. na..nana..na....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #15 - February 14, 2014, 09:10 PM

    Calling Atheism a faith is like saying Mohamad is the messenger of God.

    Ops, that one is self-defeating isn't it?
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #16 - February 14, 2014, 09:12 PM

    Atheism is a faith like virginity is a sex position.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #17 - February 14, 2014, 09:15 PM

    Calling atheism a religion is like saying dogs are a planet


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #18 - February 14, 2014, 09:17 PM

    ...or fish bicycles.
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #19 - February 14, 2014, 09:49 PM

    Calling atheism a religion is like calling suicide bombing a form of passive resistance.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #20 - February 14, 2014, 09:51 PM

    Calling atheism a religion is like calling Mister Spock a Jedi Master.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #21 - February 14, 2014, 09:55 PM

    Atheism is a religion like Middle Earth is an actual tourist destination.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #22 - February 14, 2014, 09:57 PM

    Atheism is a religion like totalitarianism is a form of popular government.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #23 - February 14, 2014, 09:57 PM

     Cheesy

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #24 - February 14, 2014, 09:58 PM

    Atheism is a religion like water is dry.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #25 - February 14, 2014, 10:06 PM

    Atheism is a religion like a famine is a detox programme.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #26 - February 14, 2014, 10:06 PM

    Atheism is a religion like water is dry.


     Afro

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #27 - February 14, 2014, 10:10 PM

    Atheism is a religion like a graveyeard is a retirement home.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #28 - February 14, 2014, 10:10 PM

    Atheism is a religion like an anorexic is fat.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Atheism: The faith of intellectuals?
     Reply #29 - February 14, 2014, 10:12 PM

    Calling atheism a religion is like calling the common housefly an endangered species.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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