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 Topic: How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?

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  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #90 - March 31, 2014, 11:39 AM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on March 31, 2014, 11:28 AM
    But that doesn't clear anything yet. Do you think our culture is narrow minded and judgmental in dress code?

    To an extent, yes. For instance, some people talk about women "looking like cheap hookers" if they aren't dressed like nuns.


    Quote
    So are you saying that in some funerals it's bad?

    Sure. At funerals, people are already having a hard time. Fucking them around is not a good thing, unless you happen to have an exceptionally good reason for it. So, if they're the sort of people who would be upset if you wore a Spiderman costume, not wearing one would simply be the humane option.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #91 - March 31, 2014, 11:41 AM
    Quote from: lua on March 31, 2014, 11:28 AM
    But I don't know, man. I'm trying to think of a situation where safety is maintained but the covered woman can still have at least some options besides stay home or take it off.  wacko

    ATM.  Afro No need to go into a bank.

    But, I'd support the right of any business to ban people from entering if their faces were covered.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #92 - March 31, 2014, 11:43 AM
    ^ Right, those exist. Never mind about the banks then.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #93 - March 31, 2014, 11:46 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2014, 11:39 AM
    To an extent, yes. For instance, some people talk about women "looking like cheap hookers" if they aren't dressed like nuns.

    Sure. At funerals, people are already having a hard time. Fucking them around is not a good thing, unless you happen to have an exceptionally good reason for it. So, if they're the sort of people who would be upset if you wore a Spiderman costume, not wearing one would simply be the humane option.


    If you refer to me, I already admitted mistake with my viewpoint and I'm trying to grow up. But do you think that schools/culture banning nudity is judgmental and narrow minded? Do you think everyone who looks at people walking nude in shopping mall as weird is judgmental and narrow minded?

    Funerals. I'm more thinking that are those people in funerals narrow minded for having dress code? Why open minded people would have dress code? Aren't we supposed to care about only the person and we cannot judge by their looks?
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #94 - March 31, 2014, 11:56 AM
    I frankly couldn't give a shit if someone wants to walk around a shopping mall in the nick. I'd just find it amusing. OTOH, I don't think wearing clothing, per se, is that big an imposition. So as long as there's a fair amount of freedom in choice of clothing, I couldn't give a bugger.

    You're being stupid about the funerals. If you think a funeral is an occasion where you shouldn't have to consider other people's feelings, regardless of whether they are strictly logical or not, then you shouldn't be out on the streets without supervision.

    Relevant point here: sometimes you have to put up with other people's standards, which is ok as long as they're not too onerous.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #95 - March 31, 2014, 12:00 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on March 31, 2014, 11:28 AM
    So are you saying that in some funerals it's bad?

    A funeral is a private social function. The wishes of the diseased or the wishes of the organisers get to determine the terms of attendance and dress code. Whether that's muted tones or superhero-themed is neither here nor there. Both have the capacity to be respectful depending on what has been requested. It would be just as disrespectful (or against the spirit of the event) to show up at a superhero themed funeral in traditional mourning attire as it would be if it was the other way around.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #96 - March 31, 2014, 12:02 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on March 31, 2014, 12:00 PM
    A funeral is a private social function. The wishes of the diseased...

    Lemme guess: phone autospell? grin12
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #97 - March 31, 2014, 12:08 PM
    Quote
    You're being stupid about the funerals. If you think a funeral is an occasion where you shouldn't have to consider other people's feelings, regardless of whether they are strictly logical or not, then you shouldn't be out on the streets without supervision.

    I think your point about funerals is good in the sense that one shouldn't be annoying douche there. But it's not what I meant. I meant that do you think those people are close minded and judgmental for that dress code? I would never go to such a situation against the dress code not to hurt anyone's feelings. That's for sure and you wouldn't either. But would you still think they're being narrow minded for imposing outward appearance even though the situation is for the memory of the dead and not a fashion show for the organizers?

    Quote
    Relevant point here: sometimes you have to put up with other people's standards, which is ok as long as they're not too onerous.

    But how do we really define onerous? If the social norm for female is natural hair and clothing that veils breasts, stomach, buttocks, lover back and crotch, does female have to put up with that standard? It doesn't seem that onerous to me.

    edit to avoid offending: I'm not saying if you don't follow that norm you're a cheap hooker. Just asking.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • Re: How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #98 - March 31, 2014, 01:30 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on March 31, 2014, 12:02 PM
    Lemme guess: phone autospell? grin12

    Grr, stupid machines.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #99 - April 05, 2014, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on March 31, 2014, 12:08 PM
    I think your point about funerals is good in the sense that one shouldn't be annoying douche there. But it's not what I meant. I meant that do you think those people are close minded and judgmental for that dress code? I would never go to such a situation against the dress code not to hurt anyone's feelings. That's for sure and you wouldn't either. But would you still think they're being narrow minded for imposing outward appearance even though the situation is for the memory of the dead and not a fashion show for the organizers?
    But how do we really define onerous? If the social norm for female is natural hair and clothing that veils breasts, stomach, buttocks, lover back and crotch, does female have to put up with that standard? It doesn't seem that onerous to me.

    edit to avoid offending: I'm not saying if you don't follow that norm you're a cheap hooker. Just asking.


    I quote my own post because I would like to know what you think osmanthus to the questions in my answer. I didn't really get clear if you think:
    1) Are people imposing dress code, close-minded?
    2) Is our culture close-minded for looking weirdly at person walking naked in shopping mall or possibly criticizing this person?
    3) Where does the line of onerous go? Doesn't have to be exactly but about. If social norm is veiling breasts, abs/low back, crotch area and natural hair, is that onerous or not?
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #100 - April 05, 2014, 09:42 PM
    Give me a reason why I should care.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #101 - April 06, 2014, 10:31 AM
    Nobody can require you to care about anything, so you shouldn't care. But it would be pleasant to get answer just like to any other philosophical question. Many people criticized me for having problems in this thread, and rightfully so, but I would like to know if you people have problems too. I just like to get insight from the more open minded people if we can criticize other clothing styles and if all dressing codes are ancient, judgmental, manipulating, narrow minded BS or if we can rationally criticize clothing; because I try not to be close minded but I want to know if I can criticize someone's style and if someday I have child, can I say that they don't have right to dress in any way possible in the schools spring festival or if I should tell them to criticize the school and culture for being close minded.
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #102 - April 06, 2014, 11:10 AM
    oops posted twice
  • Re: How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #103 - April 06, 2014, 11:48 AM
    Everyone has their own preferences siunna which is as varied as there are people, depends where and what country you live in really, here in the uk we have all kinds of styles and codes of dress, my personal preference is modest, feminine, classy but thats just mine, another may like revealing or tight clothes, another may like full modest attire or hijab..  i have myself in the past scoffed at women dressing trashy in daylight hours or inappropriate places lol but i hold a different opinion now or i've given up caring lol..  Guys have their varied preferences too, some guys enjoy beauty and enjoy looking at beautiful women, it actually brightens their day, some guys may feel very uncomfortable surrounded by scantily dressed beautiful women, some may even feel offended, there is no single type.   Going back to the original question, how do we decide what is appropriate for women to wear, collectively we don't, women do.

    X
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #104 - April 06, 2014, 12:29 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on April 06, 2014, 10:31 AM
    Nobody can require you to care about anything, so you shouldn't care. But it would be pleasant to get answer just like to any other philosophical question. Many people criticized me for having problems in this thread, and rightfully so, but I would like to know if you people have problems too. I just like to get insight from the more open minded people if we can criticize other clothing styles and if all dressing codes are ancient, judgmental, manipulating, narrow minded BS or if we can rationally criticize clothing; because I try not to be close minded but I want to know if I can criticize someone's style and if someday I have child, can I say that they don't have right to dress in any way possible in the schools spring festival or if I should tell them to criticize the school and culture for being close minded.

    Nobody can stop you criticising clothes. But if you're judgemental about how much is on show, it's not clothes you have a problem with, it's the human body.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #105 - April 06, 2014, 12:36 PM
    After coming back and re-reading the initial question (thread title) I am kinda chocked why women's clothes in particular should be an issue to start with. It is this reason, the obsession with modesty, chastity and "purity", that clothing like the niqab or veil is still used in today's day and age. It was because of these types of questions that women can't walk around however they want without risking their safety and lives.

    Whether or not I wear high heels and a short dress showing off cleavage and my good looking legs says nothing about my confidence or self-worth. I could dress like that, or dress in a pencil skirt or pants with a blouse and no make-up and still feel as good or shitty about myself.

    PS. By the way, even if it has nothing to do with the initial discussion, but the reason why so many Muslim women in the west talks how the hijab "liberates" them is because women are still seen as sexual objects and not subjects. Has it occurred that maybe a woman likes to dress "slutty" (as some would wrongly describe it) because they actually like dressing like that, and not because other (men) like it, and want to attract sexual attention because they want it as much as any other mae? Why would that be wrong?
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #106 - April 06, 2014, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: suki on April 06, 2014, 11:48 AM
    we don't, women do.


    I think that is pretty much the summation of all the answers you need on the matter, Siunaa.

    In my opinion, it is different when you're talking about a young daughter of yours, which I think was one of your questions. I would think it irresponsible to send a kid out in the world dressed provocatively for pretty obvious reasons (we had a controversy here a couple years ago where Abercrombie kids was selling padded push-up bikini tops for kids ~age 7 and 8, and my neck couldn't handle the judgmental head-shaking I'd have if I saw them on the shelf), but, once she becomes an adult with the ability to make her own decisions, who are we to try to make these decisions for her? Especially ones so trivial as her wardrobe?
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #107 - April 06, 2014, 12:43 PM
    I personally could not care less how someone choses to dress. If seeing someone walk down the street wearing something you personally don't like bothers you this much, it's your problem, not theirs.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #108 - April 06, 2014, 12:45 PM
     Let me generalize this

     Whether or not one wears high heels and a short dress showing off cleavage and her good looking legs says nothing about her confidence or self-worth...........Cornflower

    She could dress like that, or dress in a pencil skirt or pants with a blouse and no make-up and still feel as good or shitty about herself. ...........Cornflower

    wonderfully worded Cornflower
     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #109 - April 06, 2014, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 06, 2014, 12:38 PM
    . I would think it irresponsible to send a kid out in the world dressed provocatively for pretty obvious reasons (we had a controversy here a couple years ago where Abercrombie kids was selling padded push-up bikini tops for kids ~age 7 and 8, and my neck couldn't handle the judgmental head-shaking I'd have if I saw them on the shelf), but, once she becomes an adult with the ability to make her own decisions, who are we to try to make these decisions for her? Especially ones so trivial as her wardrobe?


    Agree, and the difference there lies primarily in that the young girls are turned into sexual objects and this before they have reached an age where they biologically and emotionally can even begin to be seen as sexual subjects. To sell push-up bras for 7 year old little girls is in no way better than the 70-year old geezer who had the hots for the 12 year old little girl. It's disgusting.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #110 - April 06, 2014, 01:37 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 06, 2014, 12:38 PM
    In my opinion, it is different when you're talking about a young daughter of yours, which I think was one of your questions. I would think it irresponsible to send a kid out in the world dressed provocatively for pretty obvious reasons (we had a controversy here a couple years ago where Abercrombie kids was selling padded push-up bikini tops for kids ~age 7 and 8, and my neck couldn't handle the judgmental head-shaking I'd have if I saw them on the shelf), but, once she becomes an adult with the ability to make her own decisions, who are we to try to make these decisions for her? Especially ones so trivial as her wardrobe?


    That's interesting, because now we come to a point that if we admit push up bikini and similar things being very sexual, then isn't it kinda correct to say that woman dressing very sexually is dressing kinda slutty? It's correct that I'm not an authority to tell what to wear and now that I think more, I don't even want to be responsible for people wearing whatever I want them to wear. But if woman uses this "very sexual" clothes that are immoral when used by children because they are not yet sexual beings, then isn't it kinda self evident that this dressing is "slutty"? Not that there's anything wrong with it but is there then anything wrong in saying that that kind of fashion is slutty, either?

    Even though I stated it few times, I put it with all caps on a different not to avoid misunderstanding:
    I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD CHOOSE WHAT WOMEN WEAR!
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #111 - April 06, 2014, 01:40 PM
    Siunaa, I think you partly have (one) answer to that from my previous post:

    Quote
    Agree, and the difference there lies primarily in that the young girls are turned into sexual objects and this before they have reached an age where they biologically and emotionally can even begin to be seen as sexual subjects. To sell push-up bras for 7 year old little girls is in no way better than the 70-year old geezer who had the hots for the 12 year old little girl. It's disgusting.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #112 - April 06, 2014, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on April 06, 2014, 01:37 PM
    That's interesting, because now we come to a point that if we admit push up bikini and similar things being very sexual, then isn't it kinda correct to say that woman dressing very sexually is dressing kinda slutty?

    Depends what you mean by slutty. Slut is a word usually interchangeable with whore, tramp, sexually immoral, dirty, etc, used almost always as a pejorative. Is that the message you're trying to get across?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #113 - April 06, 2014, 02:24 PM
    Doesn't slutty mean something blatantly sexual without much of class? Then a good question arises: "What is classy".
    I think it's also interesting to try to define classy. I have opinion that this is sexual and classy:

    And this is slutty to me:

    But I think I shouldn't say anything about the comparison of those because I don't really know how to exactly define what is sexual and still classy and what is just slutty. Here's another clothing that I would see as overly sexual if someone was walking like this in a mall:

    But then again, who am I to say anything?
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #114 - April 06, 2014, 02:27 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 06, 2014, 01:40 PM
    Siunaa, I think you partly have (one) answer to that from my previous post:



    I know I'm stupid but I don't really see the answer.  Cheesy
    I ask many stupid questions frequently.
    I am curious, that's why I ask many questions.
    I am overly curious, that's why I ask stupid questions.
    I lack patience, that's why I ask frequently.
    So forgive me and answer me Smiley
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #115 - April 06, 2014, 02:36 PM
    Probably abrahamic religions with their extreme teachings on chastity and modesty that made the female body an object of sin,  and then todays modern media using sex to make profit that are to blame for the warped sexualisation of the female form and it seems mens too..  ive seen african women from other cultures wear push up bras lol as a top and no one cares, and we have all those tribes around the globe who are semi naked.   I was watching this really good docu recently about rape in papau new guinea it is very rife there, the programme makers visited a prison where the locals had commited rape and asked them,  if they are so used to seeing their women semi naked in the tribes then why has rape suddenly increased so much, the inmates explained that they had seen images of western women on the net and it altered their view of women and sexuality..thats what they said anyway.   In an ideal world it would be great to be able to look at someones dress or lack of it lol without having an emotional reaction to it, i'm almost there lol
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #116 - April 06, 2014, 02:41 PM
    lol you could wear those dresses in some tribes .. Personally i think the last two dresses are fine in a night club or bedroom lol, extremely revealing  but the only place appropriate, cant go shoppin or the office in them lol
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #117 - April 06, 2014, 03:04 PM
    Quote from: Siunaa Maailmaa on April 06, 2014, 02:24 PM
    Doesn't slutty mean something blatantly sexual without much of class?

    But even by that naive, prudish and socially tone deaf definition, you're still using it as a derogatory term. 

    If that's what you mean, fine. But don't expect to go through life unscathed saying shit like that.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #118 - April 06, 2014, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on April 06, 2014, 12:50 PM
    Agree, and the difference there lies primarily in that the young girls are turned into sexual objects and this before they have reached an age where they biologically and emotionally can even begin to be seen as sexual subjects. To sell push-up bras for 7 year old little girls is in no way better than the 70-year old geezer who had the hots for the 12 year old little girl. It's disgusting.


    If it is not necessarily sexualizing for an adult to wear a certain style of clothing, how does it sexualize/objectify a child for them to wear that same clothing?
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • How do we choose what is appropriate for women to wear?
     Reply #119 - April 06, 2014, 03:55 PM
    I never said that a piece of clothing automatically sexualizes or doesn't sexualize a person, it all depends on the norms and customs of society. I just don't think that we should look at those norms and customs as set in stone, or even "best" or "right". What I meant was that just because a woman dresses sexually provocatively, doesn't make her a "slut". I do have an issue with making the female body into a sexual object, for others to enjoy only. Being a sexual subject, if she enjoys showing off parts of her body, then that fact does not mean she has low self-esteem of self-confidence or self-respect. When you sexualize a young girl and her body, you automatically turn her into a sexual object for others to enjoy because biologically and emotionally she cannot be a sexual subject.  That is why I said that selling puch-up bras for children who have barely started growing breasts is as despicable as the borderline pedophiles who marry 9-12 year old girls. Sexualizing young girls sends the wrong signals to these young minds and this is also one of the reasons why a lot of young women have problems with enjoying sex or being able to say YES or NO to sexual invitations. They see themselves as objects for others to enjoy instead of seeing themselves on equal terms as their male counterparts.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
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