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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why Allah is unlike any other deity

 (Read 49450 times)
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  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #30 - September 07, 2014, 01:05 PM

    All right, I've got a bit of a burr up my saddle, being a Christian, and the abuse and ridicule and questions, talk about mock, watch some MSM...
    I'll stand and deliver and expect any and all others to do likewise.
    So when it is said "don't question" the Koran/Islam, I see that as a cop-out.
    That is the take your ball and go home thing, I think that discussion of "matters of great importance" is called for.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #31 - September 07, 2014, 01:09 PM

    I'm afraid you've somewhat lost me, but that's okay.

    Do try not to get offended too much during your stay. Many of us might be as skeptical and as critical of Christianity as we are of Islam, so be ready for that if you want to proceed. I'm not sure if something's bothered you already or not, but I just wanted to make sure you're aware of that and that it's nothing personal.  Afro
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #32 - September 07, 2014, 01:10 PM

    All right, I've got a bit of a burr up my saddle, being a Christian, and the abuse and ridicule and questions, talk about mock, watch some MSM...
    I'll stand and deliver and expect any and all others to do likewise.
    So when it is said "don't question" the Koran/Islam, I see that as a cop-out.
    That is the take your ball and go home thing, I think that discussion of "matters of great importance" is called for.

    Hello   carpentaro.,  I still don't get it  Huh? Is it a cryptic message to some one?

    Who is abusing who? who is ridiculing who?   Nooo.,  the folks in CEMB are NOT saying   "don't question" the Koran/Islam dear carpentaro., in fact it is other way around..

    People here say   "Question everything Be your own Prophet"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #33 - September 07, 2014, 01:11 PM

    Agreed. The rating of how....malevolent the god of each book is from least to most is NT-Qur'an-OT.

    That's a scale I don't think many people here would disagree on. I think the thing with Allah is that Islam was never reformed; Islam was incredibly shitty and 'evil' to begin with. The Qur'an distinguishes itself by its unchanging nature, that is the only ground Muslims have when arguing with Christians; the Qur'an is 'unchanged', it is the one true word of god and changing a single tashkeel would render it broken, no better than any of the other religions.


    In response to this. "The Qur'an distinguishes itself by its unchanging nature" This in particular.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #34 - September 07, 2014, 01:18 PM

    Truly, this is a breath of fresh air when delving into differences of  things religious.
    And not on here, not to question, in the mainstream general debate.
    I come my hackles already up from previous sites and previous discussions.
    So, the upsetedness is not with y'all here, it with the general debate of the [supposed but not true] infallibility of koran/Islam.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #35 - September 07, 2014, 01:18 PM

    In response to this. "The Qur'an distinguishes itself by its unchanging nature" This in particular.


    I'm confused as to what your point is.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #36 - September 07, 2014, 01:21 PM

    So, the upsetedness is not with y'all here, it with the general debate of the [supposed but not true] infallibility of koran/Islam.


    Gotchya. Between the burr in the saddle comment and the ya'll, I hope you are from the American south. If you're from Kentucky, you and I might be kinfolk. Grin
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #37 - September 07, 2014, 01:22 PM

    In response to this. "The Qur'an distinguishes itself by its unchanging nature" This in particular.

     Oh...  Huh?  O.k..

    So  carpentaro  you said here
    Quote
    If you've ever been to SA [I have], it is a barren place. So, if you were wandering around looking at real estate, which would you have picked?

    So you lived in SA??  Does that SA stand for South Africa?? Saudi Arabia?? or  Sand A......??  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #38 - September 07, 2014, 01:49 PM

    Truly, this is a breath of fresh air when delving into differences of  things religious.
    And not on here, not to question, in the mainstream general debate.
    I come my hackles already up from previous sites and previous discussions.
    So, the upsetedness is not with y'all here, it with the general debate of the [supposed but not true] infallibility of koran/Islam.


    Its not infallible, was only compiled many years after Muhammad's death, and split into a variety of dialects, before settling on the "standard" within this century. We all know this.

    We also know the history of how the Old/New Testament were compiled and changed over the centuries, so there's no reason to view these as infallible either.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #39 - September 07, 2014, 01:59 PM

    This has nothing to do with you, here.
    My outburst was with the uneven playing field between Christian apologia and Muslim apologia in general.
    And the point that I was trying to make was the fact that generally Christians take more abuse and criticism [and bare it with out cutting off heads] while Muslins get to say " we don't take criticism from anyone" "our book is perfect"...
    That is the source.

    I'm sure that I'm not the first one to get upset at the irrationality of the lack of accountability of Islam.

    SA is South Africa in the antipodes, but I was referring to Saudi. Sand for as far as the camel can walk.
    I went to Jeddah on the Red Sea, BIG signs to steer you away from Mecca. Yet Vatican City is not out of bounds. I get a bit tired of the hypocrisy. That is the source of my ire.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #40 - September 07, 2014, 02:05 PM

    Its not infallible, was only compiled many years after Muhammad's death, and split into a variety of dialects, before settling on the "standard" within this century. We all know this.

    We also know the history of how the Old/New Testament were compiled and changed over the centuries, so there's no reason to view these as infallible either.

    There have been a number of studies done on the accuracy of the current Bible and older manuscripts. And there is remarkable accuracy that has made it through the years. Much of the difference is that one book WAS written down, at the time, and one was not. There are no "old manuscripts" for the Koran.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #41 - September 07, 2014, 02:07 PM

    The purity of the text is one thing, the divinity is some thing else.
    One relies on man, one does not.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #42 - September 07, 2014, 02:49 PM

    The purity of the text is one thing, the divinity is some thing else.
    One relies on man, one does not.

    This is exactly what my lovely Christian parents say. Unlike you, they don't think the Bible to be literal, but the idea of divinity is still just a puff of smoke. A puff of smoke on which the whole mighty edifice of religion rests.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #43 - September 07, 2014, 03:13 PM

    Welcome Carpentaro   : )   Really there is no difference between the Christian God and Allah, Christianity has just been watered down and reformed over the ages and Islam has become even more radicalised beyond the point of ridiculous.   God/Allah love is not real love it's conditional, this diety only loves you if you do what it wants, if not your soul either suffers or ceases to exist..  : /  that is the monotheistic God of love.. 
  • Re: Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #44 - September 07, 2014, 03:25 PM

    There have been a number of studies done on the accuracy of the current Bible and older manuscripts. And there is remarkable accuracy that has made it through the years. Much of the difference is that one book WAS written down, at the time, and one was not. There are no "old manuscripts" for the Koran.


    I'm confused as to what you mean by 'accuracy'; do you mean the difference between the two manuscripts or do you mean how 'correct' they are? Because In both cases I'm inclined to disagree with you.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #45 - September 07, 2014, 10:56 PM

    This is exactly what my lovely Christian parents say. Unlike you, they don't think the Bible to be literal, but the idea of divinity is still just a puff of smoke. A puff of smoke on which the whole mighty edifice of religion rests.

    A puff of smoke
    I would argue that throughout human history, man has sought out "something bigger than himself". The fact that most civilizations had generated some sort of belief system points to man's spiritual nature.
    It would be like the case of having lost your keys. Are they really lost? Or do you just not know where to look? They do exist, they are somewhere, you just need to look to where they are.
    The historic spiritual texts are a way of revealing what is the thing that is bigger than them.
    There is a stress level that generally creates a more sympathetic environment towards recognition of something bigger, and the ancient world was more full of those stresses.
    A Chaplain’s famous quote: "no atheists in a foxhole" seems to point to the search under stress.  Is it because they are smart enough not to fight or that under stress, everyone looks/hopes that there is something bigger? 
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #46 - September 07, 2014, 11:15 PM

    The words of the goddess herself.
    Rather than take each of the good gentleman's arguments point by point, I'd like to concentrate on just a few areas of contention for my first rebuttal, mainly the idea of intuitive belief, the propensity of belief in God, and the concept of intelligence as it pertains to the prime mover. While this may not address all of my opponent's argumentation directly, I think there will be enough overlap to cover most of it, indirectly at least. If the gentleman feels I have missed anything important, I would be happy to revisit any point at a later time.

    As is the case with most religious apologia, there are two arguments being made in tandem; an appeal to the plausible, and an appeal to accept God. These two threads criss-cross and interweave each other into a single narrative so that as we follow it, it comes across as a compelling argument for God. There is a kind of bait-and-switch going on. The apologist will feed you some good stuff about cosmology perhaps, the mystery of the early universe, some neat-sounding logic about causation, or an appeal to complexity, or gentle nudges towards the limits of our understanding, where only speculation exists. Stuff to get you nodding along. Then when you decide to buy into the package, it's switched with God and all the other unjustified baggage that comes with it. And when the savvy buyer clocks onto it and points out the baggage, the apologists flip-flops back to the agreeable stuff. If you're not careful, you find yourself arguing against something unassailable in place of the easily assailable God.

    The gentleman appeals to our intuitions once more. He rightly suggests human beings are intuitive creatures. We apprehend and navigate the world around us to a large extent with our intuitions. We have a certain degree of 'working wisdom' that amounts to a certain provisional, reactive, immediate-access interface with the world. Our spacial awareness, our sense of motion, speed, balance, gravity, our sense of distance, heights and depths, weight, space, place, and time, are all generated real-time with very little conscious effort. Mostly an unconscious, reflex grasp. And we have those visceral feelings of foresight, fear, or confidence and faith in our ability or security, that are not always rationally or intellectually derived, and yet employed because they work, more or less. They are sufficient to get around.

    Somewhere in this mix of incidental, causal and interpretational relationships lies the truth about our universe and our existence. We yearn to understand. We have to make sense of it all. Intuition is a great starting point for acquiring knowledge. It gives us that immediate handle on the universe. But intuition is not a bedrock. It turns out that very little actually works the way we intuitively feel it does. The Earth is flat, intuitively. The Sun is smaller than the Earth, intuitively. Intuition tells us that, apparently, the Sun rotates around the Earth and, apparently, is similar in size to the Moon. And both are bigger than the stars.

    We form all kinds of superficial and premature beliefs about the universe. Flat Earth theory and Geocentricism are just two examples of where we end up when we rely too much on our limited intuitions. It seems to me that, historically, intuition has failed spectacularly to paint an accurate picture of what is factual or real beyond what is directly in front of our noses. And much of modern science is an endeavour to de-program our intuitive biases and to remove them from the equation of knowledge. The universe we know now is very different to how the ancients perceived it. Is it any wonder, then, that the cosmology reflected in ancient scriptures seems to reflect this intuitive human understanding of the world rather than the more accurate findings of the scientific method?

    The gentleman's second appeal is to the widespread disposition to believe in God. This is a huge error. Religious people simply do not believe in the same thing. They have vastly different ideas what God actually is. They are not all praying to the same God, do not all envision the same kind of God or the same idea of the cosmos, have a whole spectrum of hypothesis about where we came from and where we are going. You have thousands of ideas competing in a marketplace of ideas. Hundreds and thousands of different God concepts, different cosmic hypothesis, different universe models, many completely incompatible with each other. Some religious demographics reject entirely the notion of a personal deity. And monotheism itself is a newcomer to the world stage, at barely two thousand years old. Modern theology can be vastly different from classical theology, too. They can bear almost no resemblance at all, even within a narrow religious tradition. They can be as different as night and day, as different as fire and brimstone versus gentle spiritual guru. Not to mention be at complete odds on many fundamental moral and legal issues. Even Islam itself is divided into denominations, incompatible with each other and contradicting each other, often violently. The religions of the world do a great job of discrediting each other. They tell a thousand lies before they happen to stumble upon a single truth. It's absolutely impossible for them all to be right. But it's entirely possible that they are all wrong.

    Lastly, I'd like to address intelligence. The gentleman makes firm allusions to his God's intelligence, agency,  wakefulness, authority – as though he is speaking about a person. I'm glad he does because this allows me to articulate some of my foremost misgivings about theism.

    Agency, intelligence, design, comes with a heavy price. Consider how we determine intelligence. Intelligence is a function or capacity of an agent, arising when it is tested or tasked, where a problem must be overcome, where a goal must be met, or where options are presented and decisions need to be made, where something is approached logically or laterally. The consequence of this is that an intelligent agent must have obstacles, difficulties, limits, options, unmet goals, and so on, in order to be functionally intelligent. It must be imperfect, existing in an imperfect state, with an external, pre-existing reality to navigate with mechanics at least partially unfamiliar to it or uncongenial to it. So it seems to me that intelligence and perfection cannot both be features of the same entity. If this follows, then what are the implications of God's non-perfection for theism? It would seem to me that the entire idea is a write-off. You have deism, at best. A universe architect of unknown character and attributes and of unknown origin. It cannot be a perfect being. Unless it is perfect for a task it has been put to by external influences. It also cannot be said to be the source of all things, only some things within the set of all things.

    Moreover, how could one conclude the architect was intelligent if one cannot properly ascertain the agenda of the architect and how completely and efficiently that agenda has been met? Let's suppose there is agency for a moment. Let's suppose that it did indeed cause the universe to arise. What does this assumption alone tell us about the attributes of said cause? It doesn't tell us if there was intent or not. It doesn't tell us if it was ingenious or a clumsy accident. Or a completely unconscious action. This doesn't rule out the potential of the universe being just a wasteful by-product of some other kind of production. Or pure luck. It could be the case that the universe is nothing like the end goal, not at all resembling the task it was set, inefficient, ineffective. The agency might be a blundering incompetent fool getting something wrong all the time. The universe may be its waste bin. All of these scenarios are more plausible than a perfect creation by a perfect being. And all of them are still low down on the list of most plausible explanations on offer, which we might perhaps explore later.

    I content that God cannot be a perfect being, and that imperfections open up a big problem for the theist: how did God come to be this way? Did he decide to? From what options? Or must he be this way and no other? If so, who or what determines God's nature?

  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #47 - September 07, 2014, 11:15 PM

    I'm confused as to what you mean by 'accuracy'; do you mean the difference between the two manuscripts or do you mean how 'correct' they are? Because In both cases I'm inclined to disagree with you.

    There have been exhaustive studies of Biblical accuracy; historically, prophetically, and scientifically. I find that the weight of evidence for its' accuracy tends to agree with its' authenticity.
    Perhaps Christians are wanting to reassure themselves that they've not been duped.  
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #48 - September 07, 2014, 11:28 PM

    Well, you seem to have researched this quite a bit, so hopefully I wouldn't trouble you terribly to ask where you are getting your information from, carpentaro?

    You say that there is scientific evidence, and, by the sound of it, a substantial amount of it, to verify the accuracy of the Bible. I'm beginning to think that you mean evidence of the great flood and the like. Would very much like to see your sources, if you can point me in the direction of what you find reputable.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #49 - September 07, 2014, 11:29 PM

    There have been exhaustive studies of Biblical accuracy; historically, prophetically, and scientifically. I find that the weight of evidence for its' accuracy tends to agree with its' authenticity.
    Perhaps Christians are wanting to reassure themselves that they've not been duped.  

    hello carpentaro  that sounds fantastic., I know all about prophetic studies but I need to learn a lot about these Biblical accuracy; historical ,and scientific exhaustive studies .,  Is that about OT or NT?

    A list of links on that subject will be very useful to educate many of these CEMB readers..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #50 - September 07, 2014, 11:57 PM

    Reply #46

    The process is not as complex as you have made it out to be.
    Some basic steps will get you past what would seem to be a daunting task.
    1]An acceptance that the existence we experience is far too complex for a few random acts to generate.
    2]Curiosity in what might have transpired to make it so.
    3]A desire to be an active part of that system.

    The first part is intellectual, the last part is spiritual.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #51 - September 08, 2014, 12:04 AM

    I will have a lot more respect for you going forward if you could admit right now that you actually have no idea what you are talking about. I mean that.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #52 - September 08, 2014, 12:08 AM

    #s 48, 49
    That'll take some time, but most of my research has been spurred by my natural curiosity and provided by the internet.
    I'll look up some links and post, but most of what is out there can be gleaned from a quick Google search.
    I would encourage anyone that is curious to do the same.
    Granted that there is partisan material, but I do believe that there is  [scientifically and historically] honest  content available.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #53 - September 08, 2014, 12:11 AM

    Reply #46

    The process is not as complex as you have made it out to be.
    Some basic steps will get you past what would seem to be a daunting task.
    1]An acceptance that the existence we experience is far too complex for a few random acts to generate.
    2]Curiosity in what might have transpired to make it so.
    3]A desire to be an active part of that system.

    The first part is intellectual, the last part is spiritual.

    hi carpentaro .,   all that stuff for me? or is that response to someone else??  you do have a point  here

    "existence is far too complex for a few random acts to generate. "

    but is that for  biological  existence or existence of this universe??   anyways  let me  watch this before I come back to your post..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #54 - September 08, 2014, 12:17 AM

    I will have a lot more respect for you going forward if you could admit right now that you actually have no idea what you are talking about. I mean that.

    Man's quest in the search for relevance is not new, reliance on self explanation is.  
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #55 - September 08, 2014, 12:19 AM

    Do whatever floats your boat, but remember that millions of other boats have been floated in millions of other ways.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #56 - September 08, 2014, 12:20 AM

    #s 48, 49
    That'll take some time, but most of my research has been spurred by my natural curiosity and provided by the internet.
    I'll look up some links and post, but most of what is out there can be gleaned from a quick Google search.
    I would encourage anyone that is curious to do the same.
    Granted that there is partisan material, but I do believe that there is  [scientifically and historically] honest  content available.


    Well, that is why I ask. As a regular consumer, whether I want to be or not, of real scientific articles, I've never seen anything reputable that confirms anything that would be notable to confirm in the Bible. In fact, there is a great deal of scientific evidence against a literal interpretation of many Biblical events.

    I have searched in response to claims from others like you before, and found every source they provided to be one so easy to debunk it could be done while sleeping. I would imagine that constitutes the majority of the ones that would be found with the simple google search.

    I would like to see, however, some of your best resources, as none that I have discovered that lend credibility to noteworthy Biblical stories have ever been credible or sourced, and are typically rehashes of decades-old internet hoaxes. Compelling at first glance, but crumble with the slightest bit of investigation.

    Thanks for saying that you'll look, I do appreciate that. Take your time. I just want to, at the very least, have you provide us with examples of this "scientific" evidence that you have in mind, if you intend to keep bringing it up to lend strength to your claims.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #57 - September 08, 2014, 12:23 AM

    but is that for  biological  existence or existence of this universe??   anyways  let me  watch this before I come back to your post..
    I'd say both.
    There is a guy named Louie Giglio [http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLouie_Giglio&ei=dvYMVP_QIY6eugTJm4G4BQ&usg=AFQjCNHRLv_wToX305VuN-qRmzBLxKzVAg&bvm=bv.74649129,d.c2E] that seems to do a good job of putting this in perspective.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #58 - September 08, 2014, 12:26 AM

    lua, I'll look for compelling information that will satisfy your scrutiny.
  • Why Allah is unlike any other deity
     Reply #59 - September 08, 2014, 12:31 AM

    Thanks, carpentaro. But remember that it will only be compelling if from a reputable source in whatever scientific field your claim falls into. If you wind up not finding that precise level of authority, which I suspect will be the case, I'll even take the best ones that you could find from less-reputable sources, and we'll see what it's made of.
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