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 Topic: Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus

 (Read 19116 times)
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  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     OP - July 15, 2014, 07:43 AM

    Hey guys! I recently finished the book Lost Christianities by Bart Ehrman, which was an excellent read. The book traced the origin of the Christian belief we have today from many diverse, conflicting sects in the early history of the religion.

    I am sure a lot of you guys are aware of this, but learning about these so called "heretical" Christian groups lends considerable insight into the portrait of Jesus put forth in the Quran. For example, there was a group of Christians who denied that Jesus was really crucified but only appeared to have been. This belief was known as docetism and adherents believed that Jesus did not exist as a flesh and blood human being, but was rather a divine entity disguised as a human being.

    Another group, the Ebonites, believed that Jesus was merely a human being, but affirmed the crucifixion as a perfect and final sacrifice to God. They believed that animal sacrifices ended with Jesus and consequently were vegetarians because meat was almost always eaten in a sacrificial context.

    Ehrman also goes into many of the forged apocryphal gospels which contain striking similarities to passages in the Quran.

    Muhammad had contact with many of these non-orthodox Christians in Arabia and incorporated bits and pieces of their beliefs into the Quran to fit with his theology. The result is a very strange combination of these vastly different belief systems with the Quran emphasizing a very human Jesus on one hand, but accepting a distinguishing claim of a group that emphasized a purely divine Jesus. Mix in a few legendary accounts from forged, legendary accounts written under the names of apostles of Jesus and you have one very peculiar and ahistorical Jesus of Nazareth.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #1 - July 15, 2014, 08:44 AM

    I find Ehrman's  research to be very interesting, I was however disappointed that Muslims try to justify their own theology surrounding Jesus saying that "this was the early belief by the first Christians". We had a teacher who had a degree from a British university in the subject. The conclusion from Ehrman's work doesn't fit what he is actually saying.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #2 - July 15, 2014, 09:23 AM

    Well, people believing the Infancy Gospel of Thomas is clearly the story that Muhammad picked up about Jesus speaking in the crib.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #3 - July 15, 2014, 04:08 PM

    I remember reading about the Ebionites and I noted how similar their beliefs were to Islam.  One of the things that caught my attention the most was the fact that they emphasized the oneness of God and believed that Jesus wasn't divine.

    I view Islam as a product of its time.  Islam did bring some social reform, most notably the ending of the practice of female infanticide.  But Islam, like any other ideology, is based on fixed beliefs and doctrines.  What you have then as a result is that Islamic scriptures become increasingly outdated as time progresses and social and scientific conditions change.  One way to alleviate this, of course, would be to rely increasingly on variant interpretations and mental gymnastics in order to update the Quran to modern times, but even then as time progresses it becomes harder and harder to do this.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #4 - July 15, 2014, 04:20 PM

    @female infanticide

    Did it, did it REALLY? The only sources saying the practice was widespread are Islamic. Fron analyzing those, however, it seems as if the practice was rare and only practiced by some. But you know, even if we take the Muslim narrative as historically correct, it did not eradicate misogyny and subjugation of women, which infanticide is part of, and we se how Islamic values cement honour culture

    Sorry for going ot

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #5 - July 15, 2014, 04:24 PM

    .....................

    I view Islam as a product of its time.  Islam did bring some social reform, most notably the ending of the practice of female infanticide. ...................

    really where and when Radon123 ?

    Last time I read Prophet's wife BEFORE ISLAM was Khadija ., That women already was 40 year old when she married 25 year old Muhammad. She was previously married twice., and had children,  had her own business ., employed men to work for her tells me different story, tell me  the power of women folks  in that society before Islam  in Arabian peninsula ..

    Well it is possible some rogues living in  desert  isolated from towns may have been practicing  female infanticide., But to say that it was common in Arabia of that time is misleading.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #6 - July 15, 2014, 04:36 PM

    I guess I never really thought about it before, female infanticide in Pre-Islamic Arabia.  Both of your answers, Cornflower and yeezevee, make sense though.  I mean, if it was common, then how come there was not a huge imbalance of females compared to males at that time?   
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #7 - July 15, 2014, 04:43 PM

    I guess I never really thought about it before, female infanticide in Pre-Islamic Arabia.  Both of your answers, Cornflower and yeezevee, make sense though.  I mean, if it was common, then how come there was not a huge imbalance of females compared to males at that time?  

      good question.,  well Radon123., now you  are stumping me.. you are beating me...

    http://islamicvoice.com/september.97/wome.htm Zakir Naik
    https://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/shdaut.htm  Sherif Abdel Azim, Ph.D.- Queens University, Kingston, Ontario, Canada
    http://islamthepeacefulreligion.blogspot.com/2013/05/save-girls-stop-female-foeticide-and.html

    ohuff plenty on web

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #8 - July 15, 2014, 04:51 PM

    I view Islam as a product of its time.  Islam did bring some social reform

    All monotheistic religions were living, breathing responses to events and cultures prevalent at the time. This simple fact, actually, makes all religions 'political' in that sense, so when people talk of 'political Islam' it sounds nonsensical to me, since all Abrahamic monotheistic religions are inherently political.

  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #9 - July 15, 2014, 05:05 PM

    Yeah, or the fact that some rich men had over 40 wives. If we take into account that there seemed not to be any notable social problems due to surplus of young men, with the fact that polygamy seemed fairly common amongs certain social groups, it makes no sense whatsoever that infanticide was such a big problem the Islamic scriptures try to make it seem. Look at certain parts of India and China, we can see real social problem as well as rise of homosexuality among young frustrated men who only have each other as an outlet for their sexuality. Some Indian villages don't even have females in fertile age anymore. THAT is how a society looks like that practices female infanticide on the same scale Quran and hadeeth tries to portray. But that's not Makkah, nor Madinah, is it? Smiley

    so yeah, I don't doubt some people did it, but it was most probably something most people wouldn't. We know of two people who did. Umar (he did it multiple times), and he was a fucking woman hating psycho. And Yasir's mother Sumaya's fatherwho according to texts had ONE sister that met such a horrible fate.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #10 - July 15, 2014, 05:10 PM

    What a great subject this is ... one of the most intensive and productive areas of recent Islamic scholarship has been to analyze the Qur'an in terms of the Christian texts it assumes that its audience knows and is familiar with.

    The Christianity that prevailed in Syria/Iraq/Jordan and Arabian regions was very different than what we now think of as Christianity, and the orthodox doctrines of Christology penetrated very slowly and partially into the area.  What's more, even the gospels did not get translated into Syriac until extremely late, and they did not get translated into Arabic until later still.  Before that point, Syriac Christianity used a sort of mix of informal different texts, and the "Gospels" used in that region were primarily something called the Dietessaron, a sort of synthesized Gospel that was written early.  Modern scholars believe that the Qur'an's discussion of Christianity is dependent on the Diatessaron, and that when the Qur'an speaks of the "Injil," it is probably talking about the Diatessaron.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatessaron

    The other gospel source that the Qur'an draws on is the apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, not only for the infancy story, but for other stories like the "clay birds" story.  Orthodox Christianity later became embarrassed by these stories, but the Qur'an reflects a time period when they were taken very seriously (likewise the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus).

    It is an amazing fact that the Bible was not translated into Arabic until something like the year 1000 AD!  So when Arabs were Christianized (and the Qur'an assumes its audience is familiar with Christianity and Christian texts), they would have had to access/read/recite the scripture through Syriac or Palestinian Aramaic.  This is why the Qur'an's discussion of Christianity, and its religious terminology generally, seems to reflect archaic Syriac/Palestinian Christianity -- which in turn was much more Judaic in character before the Nicene and Chalcedonian reforms slowly brought it to heel over centuries.

    There is a lot to be said for Islam having begun as a sort of older pre-Nicene Christianity that existed on the Syriac/Arabic fringe, and which reflects the older Judaic style of Christianity that was dominant in the East until it was replaced by Hellenistic Christian trinitarian theology.  Basically it is Arabic preaching of ancient Eastern Christianity, in which Jesus is divine because of his obedience to God (which is how we are all saved), not because of his inherent nature and his crucifixion.  The Qur'an does not seem to have envisioned itself as a replacement for older scriptures so much as a *commentary* on older scriptures, which corrects the scriptural misunderstandings of the Jews and the trinitarian Christians.  Only later was the Qur'an divorced from its Christian context and set by Muslim tradition into the "pagan Hijaz," which IMO is an almost entirely mythical story.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #11 - July 15, 2014, 05:21 PM

    What a great subject this is ... ................

    Man you are a lawyer .. you always make people think.. So Zaotar I am curious here.,

    do you believe that "there was man called Muhammad" who claimed himself as messenger  of Allah/god  and he was the one who uttered the words you in Quran?    If not every word of Quran but some verses were uttered by him..  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #12 - July 15, 2014, 05:57 PM

    Interesting I have never heard of the dietessaron. I just think it is very strange that Muhammad's denial of the crucifixion seems to have been lifted directly from Gnostic and Marcionite beliefs, which emphasized Jesus full divinity and denied his humanity as this was quite contrary to his general theology about Jesus. In addition, docetists usually believed Jesus had come to save people from the harsh/evil god of the old testament which also seems contrary to Islamic theology.

    The only reason I can see for the adoption of this belief into Islam is to make the Jews looks bad. To say "The Jews are so blind that they think they crucified Jesus but they didn't." Docetists were known for their negative opinions of Jews and the Jewish scripture.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #13 - July 15, 2014, 06:02 PM

    I believe there was an Arabian religious leader who styled himself a "messenger" and whose preaching is reflected in the Qur'an, but I definitely don't think the Qur'an consists of his actual words.

    I think it is extremely improbably that he was called Muhammad, which I think is an epithet that was later taken to be his name when he became a political 'weapon' during the Second Fitna, and he was used as the basis for a new religion starting with Abd al Malik.  Prior to that point, nobody had any sense of the Arabs having a new and separate religion.

    As for his name, I would note that only twice in the Qur'an is "Muhammad" clearly used as a name (two other times it is used as an adjectival description meaning the 'praised one'), and that is in two verses that are quite clearly (I believe) late and spurious addition:  33:40 and 48:29.  Particularly 33:40, "Muhammad is not the father of any of your men but the messenger of Allah and the seal of the prophets" is clearly a late addition for reasons which are set forth in great detail by this awesome book.

    http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Not-Father-Any-Your/dp/B00FGVD2C6/ref=sr_1_sc_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1405447037&sr=8-4-spell&keywords=mohammed+not+father+of+your+men

    Some of the very last monkeying with the basic rasm of the Qur'an was done to resolve critical disputes over WHO the prophet was and what his family relations were, issues that became critical only decades after his death when he was seized upon as a politcal-religious weapon in the sectarian climate.  Because these changes were so late, they were very poorly done, and generated a great deal of controversy that we still have records of.  Surah 33:4-6 and Surah 33:36-40 are very blatant later interpolations designed to establish that the "messenger" was in fact the very last prophet, he had no sons to carry on the prophetic line, and his name was Muhammad.  I would also note that Surah 33:40 is not only the only clear Qur'anic use of "Muhammad" as a true name, it ALSO contains the only clear reference to any other contemporary person by name in the entire Qur'an -- specifically, Zayd (the other name that was taken as a historical person by later Muslims, Abu Lahab, being a metaphor).  This is because 33:40 was written and inserted at a much later time when the formerly anonymous prophet had already been given a false name and some back story, in contrast to the almost complete anonymity used everywhere else in the Qur'an.  

    As for what in the Qur'an is his words and what isn't, I think that is no more meaningful than asking what in the Gospels are Jesus's words and what isn't.  You can tell that parts are later interpolations or are improbable, but NONE of it is a direct quotation of actual words uttered by the speaker.  I honestly find it to be borderline insane that so many scholars have taken seriously the proposition that the Qur'an reflects extemporaneous speeches given by Mohammed.  Everything about the Qur'an suggests exactly the opposite, that it is a painfully compiled and redacted composite text that was put together over a fairly long period of time -- not as long as Wansbrough claimed, but certainly several decades.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #14 - July 15, 2014, 06:13 PM

    Interesting I have never heard of the dietessaron. I just think it is very strange that Muhammad's denial of the crucifixion seems to have been lifted directly from Gnostic and Marcionite beliefs, which emphasized Jesus full divinity and denied his humanity as this was quite contrary to his general theology about Jesus. In addition, docetists usually believed Jesus had come to save people from the harsh/evil god of the old testament which also seems contrary to Islamic theology.

    The only reason I can see for the adoption of this belief into Islam is to make the Jews looks bad. To say "The Jews are so blind that they think they crucified Jesus but they didn't." Docetists were known for their negative opinions of Jews and the Jewish scripture.


    I actually disagree with the orthodox Muslim view that the Qur'an denies that Jesus was killed by crucifixion.  For the same reason, I disagree that the Qur'an copies the Gnostic belief in an 'apparent' crucifixion.  There is a long article by the scholar Mourad in this brand-new book where he makes these points, arguing that the Qur'an is not saying that Jesus was not killed -- it agrees that he was killed -- but rather that he instantly ascended to heaven as a martyr, where he is alive right now, and in that sense has not been killed.  I agree totally with Mourad's analysis.

    http://www.amazon.com/New-Perspectives-Quran-Historical-Routledge/dp/1138789216/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405447670&sr=8-1&keywords=quran+historical+context+2

    So why did later Muslims interpret the Qur'an as saying that it just 'appeared' like they killed him, but somehow he was substituted out, akin to the Gnostic view?  Because later Muslim theologians, looking at this verse, did not believe the crucifixion gave salvation, and so it was not a positive thing that Jesus was crucified, which would imply that God was unable to protect his prophet against the Jews.  So instead they argued that it was some sort of trick crucifixion.  In other words, they used much the same logic as the Gnostics when dealing with the same problem of Christology, but did not copy the Gnostics.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #15 - July 15, 2014, 06:21 PM

    Well I haven't read the book, but if it was a direct bodily ascension, why does the Quran depict the Jews as believing they had successfully crucified him?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #16 - July 15, 2014, 06:35 PM

    The Qur'anic account is actually incredibly vague and doesn't go into the details of what exactly happened.  It just makes larger theological points -- and insists they are correct -- rather than getting into the facts.  Reading the Qur'an's account as a whole, including its following aya:

    4:157   And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

    4:158   Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

    Three points here are studiously ignored by the traditional account.  First, they ignore 4:158 -- INSTEAD of killing him, "Allah raised him to Himself."  In other words, Jesus was "raised" to Allah via resurrection, so he is not truly dead and was not 'killed' in the normal sense.  Second, the Qur'an claims that nobody REALLY knows wtf actually happened -- "Those who differ over it are in doubt about it."  In other words, we don't really know, we are just "following assumptions."  All we know for CERTAIN is that he was not killed, and instead was raised up to Allah, and is alive.  Third, the immediately preceding verses (4:155-6) are ripping on the Jews for slandering Mary and for 'killing prophets,' so it's pretty clear that these verse are also meant to rip on the Jews and are consistent with the Jews being bad because they kill their prophets.

    This reflects what surely was a climate of great debate and uncertainty over the crucifixion, what it meant, and what it accomplished.  The Qur'an basically refrains from weighing in except to be absolutely clear that the Jews did not "kill Jesus" but rather Allah raised him up and he is alive still -- that is the theological point it is interested in.  The rest is a vague mess that the Qur'an basically says not to worry about.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #17 - July 15, 2014, 06:41 PM

    Btw, not to derail the thread but I think the ending of Surah 4 is a perfect example of what I was talking about above -- the implicitly Christian nature of the Qur'an, minus the trinitarian Hellenistic theology of salvation by crucifixion (in other words, an earlier form of Eastern Christianity, seeing Jesus as a messianic prophet rather than a divine sacrifice).  Notice the verses that follow 4:158:

    4:159.   And there is none from the People of the Scripture but that he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection he will be against them a witness.

    Uber-Christian.  This whole surah ending is basically just straight-out Christian polemic against Jews.  But it's a pre-Nicene Christianity, which was much more similar to Judaism than the Hellenistic theology that came to replace it.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #18 - July 15, 2014, 07:09 PM

    Yeah well I've heard that a case can be made that Islam was originally a Christian movement as there appear to have been crosses on early Islamic coins and buildings. But whatever Christian beliefs borrowed from, the whole Quran seems quite unfamiliar with Orthodox mainstream Christianity. It seems to vaguely acknowledge some sort of understanding that a concept of the trinity existed, but implies that it consists of Jesus, Mary, and Allah as three seperate entities.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #19 - July 15, 2014, 07:28 PM

    Part of the problem is that people don't appreciate how much of the Qur'an is *polemic*.  So when it talks about other religious groups, it's not usually trying to be accurate, it's trying to aggressively make theological points and tear into the beliefs of other groups.

    Modern scholars think the Qur'an's endless polemic against "associators" is primarily directed at Trinitarian Christians.  There is zero doubt that the Qur'an is familiar with the trinity because it rages against it.   So why does the Qur'an say that Mary is part of the trinity?  Well, look at the context -- what else does it say?  That the Jews worship Ezra as a god, "associating" him with God. 

    9:30    The Jews call `Uzair (Ezra) a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth.

    Setting aside the Christian point, no Jews ever called Ezra the "son of Allah," and it is literally impossible that the Qur'an's author could have believed that they did *while being in close contact with the Jews every day*.  The Qur'an presupposes that is audience is deeply familiar with many different obscure Christian and Jewish texts, and that there were many Jews around in Medina. 

    Now despite that fact, did the writer(s) of the Qur'an actually believe its claims about what the Jews and Christians "actually worship" to be a correct statement of doctrine as Jews and trinitarian Christians would actually give it?  Do those claims reflect a lack of knowledge?  Previous scholars believed it did reflect Mohammed's confusion.  Modern scholars generally believe the opposite, it is polemic.  The Qur'anic believers knew perfectly well that Christians would deny that they worshipped Mary ... although they quite clearly DID.  Just as contemporary Muslims will deny that kissing the black stone is blatant pagan idol worship .... although it quite clearly IS.  When the Qur'an says that christians worship Mary, that is like contemporary Christians saying that Muslims worship a black stone idol.  The Qur'an is attacking, with heated polemic, the allegedly pagan/polytheistic aspects of these other sects, including "those who say Jesus is third of three," and those who "associate," meaning those who try to claim that Jesus was God himself, i.e. the encroaching Hellenistic orthodoxy.

    Even the Arabic-ish term that the Qur'an always uses for orthodox Christians, "nazarenes," was a slightly derogatory term at that time.  Christians in the region did not and would not generally call themselves "nazarenes."  This is not because the writers of the Qur'an were confused about that, precisely the opposite:  They knew it so well that they deliberately chose a slighting term.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #20 - July 15, 2014, 08:11 PM

    That is an interesting way to look at it. While I agree the Quran is highly polemic and is often not overly concerned with accuracy when it comes to criticizing contrary beliefs, it seems to me, based on the somewhat haphazard collection of stories the Quran borrows from and its tendency to confuse and mix them up, that the author(or authors) of the Quran did not have full access and understanding of the beliefs and scriptures of the Jews and Christians around him. Therefore, it seems entirely plausible to believe that the author(s) had a weak understanding of Orthodox Christian beliefs and incorrectly assumed that the third person of the trinity was Jesus's mother, Mary, as well as making other mistakes such as the Jews regarding Ezra as the Son of God.

    Anyway, I still really do think 4:157 reflects a docetic view of Jesus. The way it is phrased matches nearly perfectly with some of the writings of Gnostics who denied the crucifixion of Christ. I will try to find the sources and post them if you want.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #21 - July 15, 2014, 08:52 PM

    Some of Mourad's article is available on Google books.  Take a look and let me know if you can access it.  He explains the argument very well.  Important to understand is that the Arabic terminology regarding the crucifixion cannot be read through the lens of later exegesis (which makes it sound more docetic), but rather for what the language states on its face, read along with the preceding and following text.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6dqoAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA349&lpg=PA349&dq=mourad+quran+assert+deny&source=bl&ots=Wl1JH5OQVx&sig=XO-jLH3juoSQtqj2UEh8NNb4uP8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=S5DFU8WyK8Pt8AW3iIDYDg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=mourad%20quran%20assert%20deny&f=false
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #22 - July 15, 2014, 10:37 PM

    Sweet thanks man I can read it fine. I hope it isn't hard for someone who has no training in quranic arabic to understand.

    Are you more knowledgeable on the Islamic or Christian side of things? I am at a Christian college and recently have deconverted but I still have a strong interest in religion and find that the more I educate myself on various religions I can see through the bs in them.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #23 - July 15, 2014, 10:42 PM

    Therefore, it seems entirely plausible to believe that the author(s) had a weak understanding of Orthodox Christian beliefs and incorrectly assumed that the third person of the trinity was Jesus's mother, Mary...

    There were actually early Christian sects that believed this. It is possible, although offhand I have no evidence of it, that such a sect was present in 7th century Arabia.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #24 - July 15, 2014, 11:00 PM

    It is likely there was a group at some point who may have considered Mary to be divine, but the author must have mistakenly thought this was a wide spread belief as whenever he tries to rail on Christians for associating other things with Allah, both Mary and Jesus show up and never the holy spirit as mainstream Christianity believes is the third person/essence/entity of the trinity.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #25 - July 15, 2014, 11:10 PM

    Sweet thanks man I can read it fine. I hope it isn't hard for someone who has no training in quranic arabic to understand.

    Are you more knowledgeable on the Islamic or Christian side of things? I am at a Christian college and recently have deconverted but I still have a strong interest in religion and find that the more I educate myself on various religions I can see through the bs in them.


    Though I was raised Christian, I'm a lot more knowledgeable about scholarship on Early Islam.  Just like any religion, being raised a believer doesn't mean you actually know much about your religion's history or its texts.

    I find research on Early Islam to be incredibly fascinating, a lot moreso than Christian scholarship.  I do have a copy of Lost Christianities too though, excellent book.  There's one theory about Early Christianity that does really fascinate me, which is this:  Were portions of the Gospels originally written in Palestinian Aramaic?  The question is similar to the Syro/Aramaic theory about portions of the Qur'an, although that theory is far stronger and has a lot better evidence behind it.

    Here's what wikipedia says.  I think the theory is dodgy but it's intriguing for sure:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_New_Testament
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #26 - July 15, 2014, 11:15 PM

    It is likely there was a group at some point who may have considered Mary to be divine, but the author must have mistakenly thought this was a wide spread belief as whenever he tries to rail on Christians for associating other things with Allah, both Mary and Jesus show up and never the holy spirit as mainstream Christianity believes is the third person/essence/entity of the trinity.

    Which would be (more) good evidence of the Quran being parochial rather than omniscient. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #27 - July 16, 2014, 12:05 AM

    By the way, as to Mary, I'd say two things.  First many other Christians still claim that Catholics worship Mary, and that Catholic claims that they just 'venerate and pray to her' are just semantics.  Here's a straighforward example:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/worship-saints-Mary.html

    I really believe the Qur'anic discussion represents a similar type of rhetoric against worshipping intermediaries = polytheism = associating, which was just as common back then amongst monotheists as it is nowadays.

    The second thing is that the Qur'an's reference to Mary being worshipped again isn't stated as some formal doctrine of the trinity, it's just that Jesus is saying he never told anybody to treat him and his mother as divine like Allah.  Here's the only such reference in the Qur'an:

    http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=5&verse=116#%285:116:1%29

    The Qur'an is less saying "Christians believe in a trinity composed of x, y, z" and more just having Jesus saying "wtf, I never told them I was divine or they should worship my mom."  As Mourad's article says, it is less concerned with factual/doctrinal detail and more concerned with theological polemic.  The Qur'an has little concern for fairness or accuracy; it is all about making theological points, and its author(s) pull out every trick in the book to do that.

    A similar issue comes up with the Qur'an's discussion of "fir'awn" (pharaoh), which has nothing to do with the historical or biblical pharaoh figures, and which inexplicably refers to the Persian Biblical figure "Haman" as pharaoh's advisor.  People have argued that these enormous "mistakes" are in the Qur'an because Mohammed heard these stories thirdhand through the grapevine and they got all jumbled.  But again, the Qur'anic discussion of fir'awn is so peculiar not because Mohammed was confused about the facts of those narratives so much as the Qur'anic author did not actually care about those facts, he was telling a new and different story for different purposes, adapting a common Middle Eastern narrative ("the sage Ahiqar") and putting Biblical figures into it.  Another article, same google book:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=6dqoAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA475&lpg=PA475&dq=gabriel+said+reynolds+quran+ahiqar&source=bl&ots=Wl1JH6QTRD&sig=o10N5APLmhdRQ_s4NfjTDaO_HI8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NsDFU7L9Hdjo8AWu6oKYCw&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=gabriel%20said%20reynolds%20quran%20ahiqar&f=false
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #28 - August 07, 2014, 06:52 PM

    Has anyone noticed how much of a massive failure the Islamic version of Jesus would have been? To have come preaching pure monotheism and being the precursor to Muhammad only to be crucified(or appear to be) and have the majority of Christians by the 2nd century revering you as a divine being and your death as an atoning sacrifice? And to top it all off, these debates rage on and on and a shit ton of people are killed over petty theological differences, and finally 600 years later you reveal the truth to some peasant hearing voices in a cave. Wow.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #29 - August 07, 2014, 07:17 PM

    That allah. What a joker.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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