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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'an's Pointless Stories

 (Read 10170 times)
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  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     OP - August 24, 2014, 11:22 PM

    I'd like to start compiling all of the stories in the Qur'an that have no apparent moral or lesson to be learned from them. Many of the stories in the Muslim holy book, despite having hundreds of years of commentary and exegesis surrounding them, seem to have very little point at all.

    This is especially troublesome given that this is meant to be God's last attempt at talking to people before he goes around destroying everything in a hissy fit of rage.

    Solomon and the Horses

    Take this bizarre story for starters from Surah Sad (38:30-34). Solomon is reportedly shown a bunch of race horses, which causes him to forget to remember Allah until "she disappeared to the veil." (Scholars have said that this means the sun disappeared into the veil of darkness, but anyhow.)

    Solomon then calls for "her" to be brought back to him. (In Arabic, this "her" could be referring to a female, or to the horses themselves.) He then begins "striking their legs and necks." Again, there are many different possible interpretations here, but the most prevalent I've come across is that Solomon was so distraught by having forgotten to remember Allah that he goes berserk and starts slicing up the horses! (Yes. WTF indeed.)

    Allah then throws a (dead?) body on Solomon's thrown so that he can repent.

    I ask, what moral is there to be learned from this story? What does it even mean?? Is it that we should slice up any interesting hobbies that keep us from remembering Allah? Should we kill pets if they make us forget prayer?

     I will add more. Please contribute.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #1 - August 24, 2014, 11:41 PM

    Taken from Al Baqarah:

    2:50-2:56

    tl;dr version

    ☻After Allah extended his killstreak against the Egyptian army, he decided to focus his attention toward those who worshipped a calf.

    ☻ Moses told the calf worshippers to kill themselves, as it would be in their best interests.

    ☻ Allah struck Moses with lightning and then revived him so that Moses could thank him for it.



    *Hides from the context police*



    I say that this "story" portrays Allah as having terribly human-like characteristics as opposed to the sort of divine properties that you would ascribe to an omnipotent, omniscient being who is coincidentally nicknamed "the most merciful of those that can show mercy". He also likes to beat Moses up in order to prove a point.
    I claim that this story is morally vacuous in the sense that it isn't something which I would expect from a maximally great being. God by definition should be a morally perfect creator and any deviation from this would therefore be a liability- not a power. To say that "Allah has reason for doing X and Y but we don't know what the reasons are..." is just a cop out in my book. If we read further into this chapter we also find out that rocks are scared of Allah.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #2 - August 24, 2014, 11:42 PM

    Glass Floors and Sexy Shins

    Surah naml 27:17-44

    This is another story that has no point to it. Most people have likely heard this story, so I'll set aside for a moment all of the fun we could have laughing about the talking ants and birds. I'll even skip over the monster jinn who conspires to steal the Queen of Sheba's throne. What I want to focus on is the last bit where the queen lifts up her skirt or whatever she was wearing in order to cross what she thought was a pool of water, only to be told it was a floor made of glass. While glass floors might make a cool MTV Cribs episode, and while they may very well impress a few ladies and gents every now and again, I don't understand how riches and bling of such a nature are somehow proof of the truth of Solomon's religion.

    Is the moral that we should automatically convert to the religion of whoever has the coolest architecture or technology?
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #3 - August 24, 2014, 11:45 PM

    Great thread! I would like to add the story of the sleepers in the cave with their little dog (18:9-26). I'm on my phone right now, going to sleep, so I'll keep it short. But the story goes something like this: an unknown number of believers leave their town where they're ridiculed. They fall in sleep in a cave, apparently the sight of them should make you shit scared. This is a "mercy" from their lord. A clear sign from our lord is that they move in their "sleep" and that the sun raises and sets right to left of the cave (?!). A dog, also asleep, "guards" outside. They wake up, go to town and find out the town is now a town of believers. Subhanak ya Rabb.

    So if you are ridiculed you should hide in a cave and sleep for hundreds of years until your problems go away Huh? And why would it even matter that someone got scared because they looked like they were dead or something? The whole story is really silly. But my favourite part is "kalbuhum baasitun" Grin I remember my tafseer teacher elaborating on this one. I remember clearly two of the numerous lessons we could derive from this. One, even if you are a dog (meaning, a worthless being apparently), if you keep in good company you will be part of them and mentioned with them. So keep good company... or something. Secondly, never ever let a dog inside your home, because the dog was outside the cave Grin

    The story is quite fragmented at times, has no real deeper meaning, and appeares to be intended to impress no one except illiterate 7th century bedouins.

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #4 - August 24, 2014, 11:55 PM

    Hit Dead People With Beef

    2:67-72

    This might be my all time favorite pointless story because it makes zero sense. So, Allah tells the pesky Jews to kill a cow. Knowing how picky he can be sometimes, the Jews decide they'd better seek some clarification before they go offing their livestock. Sure enough, Allah comes back with all of these different requirements for this cow that is about to get slaughtered.

    At the end of the escapades, we find that the reason that Allah, Knowledgeable and Smart is he, wanted the yahoods to kill a cow was so they could hit a dead guy with a piece of it in order to bring him back to life. Once the zombie was up and walking, the Jews' hearts became hard as rocks.

    I actually need some help with the morals of this story. I have no idea what they could possibly be.  Huh? Huh?
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #5 - August 24, 2014, 11:57 PM

    Great thread! I would like to add the story of the sleepers in the cave with their little dog (18:9-26). I'm on my phone right now, going to sleep, so I'll keep it short. But the story goes something like this: an unknown number of believers leave their town where they're ridiculed. They fall in sleep in a cave, apparently the sight of them should make you shit scared. This is a "mercy" from their lord. A clear sign from our lord is that they move in their "sleep" and that the sun raises and sets right to left of the cave (?!). A dog, also asleep, "guards" outside. They wake up, go to town and find out the town is now a town of believers. Subhanak ya Rabb.

    So if you are ridiculed you should hide in a cave and sleep for hundreds of years until your problems go away Huh? And why would it even matter that someone got scared because they looked like they were dead or something? The whole story is really silly. But my favourite part is "kalbuhum baasitun" Grin I remember my tafseer teacher elaborating on this one. I remember clearly two of the numerous lessons we could derive from this. One, even if you are a dog (meaning, a worthless being apparently), if you keep in good company you will be part of them and mentioned with them. So keep good company... or something. Secondly, never ever let a dog inside your home, because the dog was outside the cave Grin

    The story is quite fragmented at times, has no real deeper meaning, and appeares to be intended to impress no one except illiterate 7th century bedouins.


    The thing about this story that always got me was that they were told to go into a cave so that Allah could "shower them with his mercy." Allah then puts them all in a coma!
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #6 - August 25, 2014, 12:49 AM

    Hit Dead People With Beef

    2:67-72

    This might be my all time favorite pointless story because it makes zero sense. So, Allah tells the pesky Jews to kill a cow. Knowing how picky he can be sometimes, the Jews decide they'd better seek some clarification before they go offing their livestock. Sure enough, Allah comes back with all of these different requirements for this cow that is about to get slaughtered.

    At the end of the escapades, we find that the reason that Allah, Knowledgeable and Smart is he, wanted the yahoods to kill a cow was so they could hit a dead guy with a piece of it in order to bring him back to life. Once the zombie was up and walking, the Jews' hearts became hard as rocks.

    I actually need some help with the morals of this story. I have no idea what they could possibly be.  Huh? Huh?



    Pretty sure it does nothing but show Mo's prejudice and hate towards the Jews; which is obviously interpreted by Muslims as god showing us yet again how shitty Jews are (obviously this applies to their descendants 1400 years later). So many things in the Qur'an and hadiths are simply bashing the Jews, it's pretty....interesting?

    This looks like it could be a very entertaining thread, I'll see if I can remember something to post tomorrow.

    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #7 - August 25, 2014, 01:05 AM

    Yes pls post a lot, i like to read these things! : D

    Dogs never bite me - just humans. ~ M. Monroe

    Religions seem to cause more grief than good.

    Exmuslim Chat
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #8 - August 25, 2014, 01:46 AM

    Stories of Quran

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #9 - August 25, 2014, 09:17 AM

    I think these stories are all traceable to something local -and urban - the story of the sleepers is a classic.

    Quote
    The Seven Sleepers (also in Arabic:اصحاب الکھف As-hab al Kahf means companions of the cave) of Ephesus was a group of Christian youths who hid inside a cave outside the city of Ephesus around 250 AD, to escape a persecution of Christians being conducted during the reign of the Roman emperor Decius. Another version is that Decius ordered them imprisoned in a closed cave to die there as punishment for being Christians. Having fallen asleep inside the cave, they purportedly awoke approximately 309 years later during the reign of Theodosius II, following which they were reportedly seen by the people of the now-Christian city before dying.

    The earliest version of this story comes from the Syrian bishop Jacob of Sarug (c. 450–521), which is itself derived from an earlier Greek source, now lost.[1] An outline of this tale appears in Gregory of Tours (b. 538, d. 594), and in Paul the Deacon's (b. 720, d. 799) History of the Lombards. The best-known Western version of the story appears in Jacobus de Voragine's Golden Legend.

    The Roman Martyrology mentions the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus under the date of 27 July, as follows: "Commemoration of the seven Holy Sleepers of Ephesus, who, it is recounted, after undergoing martyrdom, rest in peace, awaiting the day of resurrection."[2] The Byzantine Calendar commemorates them with feasts on 4 August and 22 October.

    The story has its highest prominence, however, in the Muslim world; it is told in the Qur'an (Surah 18, verse 9–26). The Quranic rendering of this story doesn't state exactly the number of sleepers Surah 18, verse 22. It also gives the number of years that they slept as 300 solar years (equivalent to 309 lunar years). Unlike the Christian story,the Quran mentions a dog who accompanied the youths into the cave, and was also asleep,if people try to look inside the cave it make them so horrified that they could run away with fear. (see Islamic interpretation). In Islam, these youths are referred to as "The People of the Cave".


    Wiki very naughtily assumes some truth to the original Christian story!

    On Glass, compare Byzantine tessalation.  I can't remembe, but that technology was probably around in the 600's.

    The Quran was not written in  a desert with examples like this in it!


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #10 - August 25, 2014, 09:21 AM

    Quote
    Narrated As-Sadiy on the authority of Abu Malik and Abu Salih after Ibn 'Abbas (May Allah be pleased with him) and on the authority of Ibn Mas`ud and other Companions that Adam (Peace be upon him)


    Would someone kindly edit Islamic documents?  What is all this throat clearing stuff about?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #11 - August 25, 2014, 09:25 AM

    I'd like to start compiling all of the stories in the Qur'an that have no apparent moral or lesson to be learned from them. Many of the stories in the Muslim holy book, despite having hundreds of years of commentary and exegesis surrounding them, seem to have very little point at all.

    This is especially troublesome given that this is meant to be God's last attempt at talking to people before he goes around destroying everything in a hissy fit of rage.

    Solomon and the Horses

    Take this bizarre story for starters from Surah Sad (38:30-34). Solomon is reportedly shown a bunch of race horses, which causes him to forget to remember Allah until "she disappeared to the veil." (Scholars have said that this means the sun disappeared into the veil of darkness, but anyhow.)

    Solomon then calls for "her" to be brought back to him. (In Arabic, this "her" could be referring to a female, or to the horses themselves.) He then begins "striking their legs and necks." Again, there are many different possible interpretations here, but the most prevalent I've come across is that Solomon was so distraught by having forgotten to remember Allah that he goes berserk and starts slicing up the horses! (Yes. WTF indeed.)

    Allah then throws a (dead?) body on Solomon's thrown so that he can repent.

    I ask, what moral is there to be learned from this story? What does it even mean?? Is it that we should slice up any interesting hobbies that keep us from remembering Allah? Should we kill pets if they make us forget prayer?

     I will add more. Please contribute.


    Oh man, I love the idea of this thread! I will try to contribute later when I have more time. But yeah the story above is crazy, thanks for reminding me of it and how silly it is. You should do a vid on this and other stories in the Qur'an. The Khidr one comes to mind lol
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #12 - August 25, 2014, 09:26 AM

    Has someone collected the failed exam papers of the Honourable Society of Story Tellers (Damascus 700) Inc?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #13 - August 25, 2014, 09:33 AM

    Glass Floors and Sexy Shins

    Surah naml 27:17-44

    This is another story that has no point to it. Most people have likely heard this story, so I'll set aside for a moment all of the fun we could have laughing about the talking ants and birds. I'll even skip over the monster jinn who conspires to steal the Queen of Sheba's throne. What I want to focus on is the last bit where the queen lifts up her skirt or whatever she was wearing in order to cross what she thought was a pool of water, only to be told it was a floor made of glass. While glass floors might make a cool MTV Cribs episode, and while they may very well impress a few ladies and gents every now and again, I don't understand how riches and bling of such a nature are somehow proof of the truth of Solomon's religion.

    Is the moral that we should automatically convert to the religion of whoever has the coolest architecture or technology?


    lol... I remember I did a vid on the story of Solomon and found a clip of Rita Hayworth (I think) lifting up her silk dress to reveal her leg. Allah created quite a sexy scene there  grin12
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #14 - August 25, 2014, 09:35 AM

    So if you are ridiculed you should hide in a cave and sleep for hundreds of years until your problems go away


    Hehe... should work a treat!
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #15 - August 25, 2014, 09:37 AM

    Hit Dead People With Beef

    2:67-72

    This might be my all time favorite pointless story because it makes zero sense. So, Allah tells the pesky Jews to kill a cow. Knowing how picky he can be sometimes, the Jews decide they'd better seek some clarification before they go offing their livestock. Sure enough, Allah comes back with all of these different requirements for this cow that is about to get slaughtered.

    At the end of the escapades, we find that the reason that Allah, Knowledgeable and Smart is he, wanted the yahoods to kill a cow was so they could hit a dead guy with a piece of it in order to bring him back to life. Once the zombie was up and walking, the Jews' hearts became hard as rocks.

    I actually need some help with the morals of this story. I have no idea what they could possibly be.  Huh? Huh?



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3iPFN9l3Us
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #16 - August 25, 2014, 09:52 AM

    Just reading some comments on that vid. Gotta love the point blank denial of what the Qur'an says.

    That is not how the story goes....the man did not say that, Iv'e not read that 

    IF YOU DON'T STUDY ISLAM DON'T TALK ABOUT IT!! PLS, BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO LOOK STUPID!! YOU WERE NOT A MUSLIM YOU WERE AN HYPOCRITE!!

    Your video has proved absolutely zero, the human mind is able to criticize revelation and also see the beauty of it, Assumption of truth in your video shows the absurdity of your mind. To one person this is beautiful and to another person it is not beautiful, Beauty is subjective and just because you don't like something and have changes your perspective on it does not mean that it is somehow not beautiful or somehow falsified as you ridiculously try to say. 

    I have all sympathy with you, you need to study a lot to reach on such silly conclusions

    Dot talk about god or his prophets or his words or you will be in hall god is trying to Say that hi can bring any body to live god Sade money Times in the Quran that hi says than it be

  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #17 - August 25, 2014, 11:35 AM

    Great thread idea. I did a parody of some of the silly stories here:

    http://jediapostate.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/excerptsfrom-islamic-bedtime-stories.html

    The obvious one that comes to mind is the story of Abraham.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #18 - August 25, 2014, 04:30 PM

    Great thread! I would like to add the story of the sleepers in the cave with their little dog (18:9-26). I'm on my phone right now, going to sleep, so I'll keep it short. But the story goes something like this: an unknown number of believers leave their town where they're ridiculed. They fall in sleep in a cave, apparently the sight of them should make you shit scared. This is a "mercy" from their lord. A clear sign from our lord is that they move in their "sleep" and that the sun raises and sets right to left of the cave (?!). A dog, also asleep, "guards" outside. They wake up, go to town and find out the town is now a town of believers. Subhanak ya Rabb.

    So if you are ridiculed you should hide in a cave and sleep for hundreds of years until your problems go away Huh? And why would it even matter that someone got scared because they looked like they were dead or something? The whole story is really silly. But my favourite part is "kalbuhum baasitun" Grin I remember my tafseer teacher elaborating on this one. I remember clearly two of the numerous lessons we could derive from this. One, even if you are a dog (meaning, a worthless being apparently), if you keep in good company you will be part of them and mentioned with them. So keep good company... or something. Secondly, never ever let a dog inside your home, because the dog was outside the cave Grin

    The story is quite fragmented at times, has no real deeper meaning, and appeares to be intended to impress no one except illiterate 7th century bedouins.


    Great idea for a thread!

    As for the "Seven Sleepers" story, there are several great recent articles by Western scholars on the subject (by Reynolds and Griffith, specifically).  They make a completely compelling argument that the Qur'an is not attempting to deliver a detailed narrative, but rather to *remind* its listeners of the Syriac Christian religious traditions *that they already know by heart*.  In other words, it's as if somebody nowadays was to say "remember in the Matrix, when Neo takes the red pill?  That's what this is like."  95% of young men in the West would know what that means; you don't need to tell the entire story of the first Matrix movie anew, everybody knows the reference.

    So the Qur'an is not, by itself, comprehensible -- it must be read in the context of a biblical/Christian background to understand what the story is about and what it means.  It is because Islam later attempted to divorce the Qur'an from this background, and remove its alleged origins deep within the pagan Hijaz, that Muslims were never able to satisfactorily explain what this story means, what its language is, and what it is referring to.

    As Reynolds and Griffith show, if you know the Syriac background, there are several key points you would understand.  First, there are several different versions of the stories in Syriac tradition, and they involve different numbers of sleepers and different numbers of years.  Second, God places a "watcher" over the youths while they sleep, as lambs of god; the watcher, thus, is understood as a sheep dog keeping God's lambs safe from the wolves.  This is where the otherwise inexplicable Qur'anic dog comes from.  Third, in the Syriac tradition the youths' souls are taken up to heaven while they are 'asleep', and then return to their bodies later -- in other words, they were resurrected.

    This background is necessary to understand wtf the story means, what its terms are referring to, and what its point is.  The Qur'an is invoking this well-known story to remind its listeners about the *truth of bodily resurrection*, and how that was *proven* by the sleepers.  The Qur'an argues that while nobody seems to know the exact numbers involved, the fact of the miracle is a fact.  It is addressing an audience that already knows the story very well, and believes in its truth.  Thus the Qur'an is making a *citation* to prove that bodily resurrection is REAL.  That is the point here.

    When read without the Syriac tradition as its assumed background, however, and with instead a mythological pagan Hijaz as the background, the story become incomprehensible gibberish.

    From a broader perspective, this illustrates the critical fact that Islam *no longer understood the context, language, and references used in the Qur'an*.  The same is true of the many other stories related in the Qur'an.  The Qur'an is not a narrative text.  It is a REMINDER, a warning, a commentary, a correction.  After it was mythologically jammed into the Pagan Hijaz and interpreted through the Sirah, Muslims no longer remembered what it was reminding them of, what language it was using, and what its point was.  Thus these stories, although coherent in their original context, became incomprehensible gibberish as misread by later Muslim tradition.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #19 - August 25, 2014, 04:58 PM

    ^

    There are antecedents in both Greek Pagan ( the story of Epimenides the Cretan's 57 year sleep ) and early rabbinical/Talmudic ( Honi the circle drawer ) traditions. The Talmudic tradition probably derives from the story of Abimelech's sleep of 66 or 70 years ( depending on which version of the text ), and his awakening to find a new temple built in Jerusalem, as found in 4th Baruch. Some of the narrative elements in 4th Baruch found their way into the later Syriac legend.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #20 - August 25, 2014, 05:35 PM

    That is interesting ... I would not be surprised, not only did Middle Eastern religious stories constantly draw on each other, they were explicit about that, because situating your stories and claims within well-known existing narratives was a way to establish authenticity and strength.

    Btw, I think my point above is illustrated by how incoherent the traditional Muslim explanation of these stories is.  From Wikipedia on the Seven Sleepers:  "The above mentioned verses from the Qur'an are the only known Islamic source for this story. According to Muslim scholars, God revealed these verses because the people of Mecca challenged the Prophet Muhammad with questions that were passed on to them from the Jews of Medina in an effort to test his authenticity. They asked him about young men who disappeared in the past, about a man who traveled the earth from east to west, Zulqurnain, and about the soul."

    In other words, because later Muslims were so committed to the idea of Mohammed receiving his revelations from heaven within the pagan Hijaz, they attempted to explain these Qur'anic discussions as if they were a RESPONSE to Jewish (!!!) questions in Medina (needless to say, none of which appears in the Qur'an), allegedly testing Mohammed's knowledge, to see whether it was divine (because otherwise Mohammed, allegedly raised a pagan, could not have known about these narratives except via divine revelation).  Which makes not an iota of sense.  The discussions are manifestly references and commentary on prevailing theological-historical narratives, in distinctively Syriac form, which are already well-known to both the speaker and the audience.

    This later Muslim tradition, btw, bears a significant resemblance to the Gospel story about Jesus at the Temple as a young boy, where the Jewish priests questioned him regarding the law and theology, and he was miraculously knowledgeable, proving his status as a divine prophet -- there being no way a young boy could have learned such things except directly by revelation.  Probably it was borrowed from that context, well-known to all Christians.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #21 - August 26, 2014, 10:39 AM

    ^

    It gets even more interesting when you trace the story/narrative ideas onwards into the high medieval era - the Shia tradition of occultation of the final imam, the Arthurian myth of the sleeping king, various medieval millenarian traditions surrounding the return of the "just" emperor ( Carolinus redivivus, ps-Baldwin, ps-Frederick ) and the advent of the millenium and the "new" Jeruselamite dispensation.

    Resurrection. Renewal. Redemption of both man and world.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #22 - August 26, 2014, 11:54 AM

    Whole Quran is pointless




    Quote
    Contents: All praise belongs to Allah. We praise Him, seek His forgiveness, and seek refuge in Him from evil inclinations and from the evil of bad deeds.

    The enemy of Islam is Shaytan. He comes in many disguises, and spares no effort to turn Muslims away from their religion and its sublime principles and teachings. Disbeliever people are threatened by the Muslim's superior lifestyle that is spotless and beyond reproach. They are well aware that as long as Muslims adhere to their religion, all attempts to corrupt them will be futile, because Islam is the source of their power. Islam is that which raises a mere individual into something higher and more dignified. And, for this reason, Islam is severely attacked through all forms of non-Muslim media. It is a cheap attempt to corrupt young minds away from something great to something pitiful: the life outside of Islam. Through following Islamic guidance, we glorify our Creator, Allah, and we become the best example of human beings.  We want to present this book 'The Precious Pearls - the Description of the Ten Companions Who were Given the Glad Tidings of Paradise' to our youth as a legacy
     
        Abu Bakr As-Siddiq (R)
        'Umar bin Khattab (R)
        'Uthman bin 'Affan (R)
        'Ali bin Abi Talib (R)
        Talhah bin 'Ubaidullah (R)
        Az-Zubair bin Al-Awwam (R)
        Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf (R)
        Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas (R)
        Said bin Zaid (R)
        Abu 'Ubaidah bin Al-Jarrah (R)


    precious pearls

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nM5-_wILOE

     Teach stories and beat the children to pulp ....My foot .. fucking shit.      This is what children need to learn

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2IqC0aFU1k

    instead of learning stupid stories from stupid books of Islam or  Quran., For   that matter stories from every religion should be replaced with wonders of modern science ...

    MOCK THEM AND MOVE ON......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #23 - August 26, 2014, 04:58 PM

    Great idea for a thread!

    As for the "Seven Sleepers" story, there are several great recent articles by Western scholars on the subject (by Reynolds and Griffith, specifically).  They make a completely compelling argument that the Qur'an is not attempting to deliver a detailed narrative, but rather to *remind* its listeners of the Syriac Christian religious traditions *that they already know by heart*.  In other words, it's as if somebody nowadays was to say "remember in the Matrix, when Neo takes the red pill?  That's what this is like."  95% of young men in the West would know what that means; you don't need to tell the entire story of the first Matrix movie anew, everybody knows the reference.

    So the Qur'an is not, by itself, comprehensible -- it must be read in the context of a biblical/Christian background to understand what the story is about and what it means.  It is because Islam later attempted to divorce the Qur'an from this background, and remove its alleged origins deep within the pagan Hijaz, that Muslims were never able to satisfactorily explain what this story means, what its language is, and what it is referring to.

    As Reynolds and Griffith show, if you know the Syriac background, there are several key points you would understand.  First, there are several different versions of the stories in Syriac tradition, and they involve different numbers of sleepers and different numbers of years.  Second, God places a "watcher" over the youths while they sleep, as lambs of god; the watcher, thus, is understood as a sheep dog keeping God's lambs safe from the wolves.  This is where the otherwise inexplicable Qur'anic dog comes from.  Third, in the Syriac tradition the youths' souls are taken up to heaven while they are 'asleep', and then return to their bodies later -- in other words, they were resurrected.

    This background is necessary to understand wtf the story means, what its terms are referring to, and what its point is.  The Qur'an is invoking this well-known story to remind its listeners about the *truth of bodily resurrection*, and how that was *proven* by the sleepers.  The Qur'an argues that while nobody seems to know the exact numbers involved, the fact of the miracle is a fact.  It is addressing an audience that already knows the story very well, and believes in its truth.  Thus the Qur'an is making a *citation* to prove that bodily resurrection is REAL.  That is the point here.

    When read without the Syriac tradition as its assumed background, however, and with instead a mythological pagan Hijaz as the background, the story become incomprehensible gibberish.

    From a broader perspective, this illustrates the critical fact that Islam *no longer understood the context, language, and references used in the Qur'an*.  The same is true of the many other stories related in the Qur'an.  The Qur'an is not a narrative text.  It is a REMINDER, a warning, a commentary, a correction.  After it was mythologically jammed into the Pagan Hijaz and interpreted through the Sirah, Muslims no longer remembered what it was reminding them of, what language it was using, and what its point was.  Thus these stories, although coherent in their original context, became incomprehensible gibberish as misread by later Muslim tradition.


    Did the Syriacs know about the metaphor of the Valley of Hinnom Zaotar? The valley where 'jahannam' came from but used to be taken more metaphorically as far as I can see.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #24 - August 26, 2014, 05:28 PM

    It's doubtful that any Christians (including the Syriac traditions) understood the term metaphorically.  In the Gospels, 600 years before Islam, Jesus repeatedly uses the Aramaic term for Gehenna as a place of hellfire, not as a metaphor or as an actual physical location in the Levant.

    The term Gehenna became widespread throughout the Aramaic world as a term for hell (Syriac being a specific variatn of Aramaic).  When the OT was translated into Aramaic paraphrase, the word "Gehenna" was used in all contexts referring to resurrection and the last judgment; rather than metaphor, it became in the Aramaic texts a specific theological term connected to the Last Judgment.  This probably reflects the same usage that Jesus (since he spoke Aramaic) himself used it.

    "Targums

    The ancient Aramaic paraphrase-translations of the Hebrew Bible supply the term "Gehinnom" frequently to verses touching upon resurrection, judgment, and the fate of the wicked. This may also include addition of the phrase "second death", as in the final chapter of the Book of Isaiah, where the Hebrew version does not mention either Gehinnom or the Second Death, whereas the Targums add both. In this the Targums are parallel to the Gospel of Mark addition of "Gehenna" to the quotation of the Isaiah verses describing the corpses "where their worm does not die".[19]"

    This is also the sense in which the term is used in the Qur'an.

    In its use of the term Gehenna in the same way, the Qur'an again demonstrates its inheritance of this literate Aramaic monotheism.  Also, the exact Arabic form that the Qur'an uses --- jahannam --- is a borrowing that came from Aramaic (Jahenem), rather than directly from Hebrew (which instead uses Gehenna).  As almost always, the Qur'an prefers to use the Christian Aramaic terminology over the Jewish Hebrew terminology.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #25 - August 26, 2014, 05:31 PM

    Interesting Zaotar. Do you think right at the start the term was supposed to be metaphorical?
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #26 - August 26, 2014, 05:35 PM

    Btw, the Targums are very similar as a religious literary genre to the Qur'an -- the Targums were an Aramaic paraphrase and recitation that explains the holy scriptures properly to the congregation, often unwritten, where the congregation does not properly understand the language the holy scriptures were actually written in (very few Jews still understood Hebrew; Aramaic was all they spoke anymore, so the Targums became necessary).  Because people are so unfamiliar with how religious texts and services worked in the ancient Middle East, they misunderstand what the Qur'an actually was.  This is particularly strange since the very title of the Qur'an --- a lectionary, from the Syriac --- specifies that it is part of this tradition.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum

    It is really amazing how effectively Muslim tradition succeeded in divorcing the Qur'an from its actual historical and linguistic context with the ancient Near East (a lectionary on holy scripture, formed and delivered in a literate Aramaic monotheistic climate, explaining it within a vernacular Arabic context, and compiled and edited over decades by various hands), and instead recast it as a series of oral revelations delivered by an Arabian prophet in Classical Arabic within the mythological Jahiliya.  That believing Muslims accept this is understandable ... that Western scholars long accepted this is simply mind-blowing.

    Btw, Ibn Warraq's new book comes out today, addressing many of these issues.  I can't wait; I have high hopes.  I will report on it once I've read it, but at 800 pages, that will take some time.

    http://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Koran-Luxenberg-Judeo-Christian-Background/dp/161614937X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409074488&sr=8-1&keywords=christmas+in+the+koran
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #27 - August 26, 2014, 05:37 PM

    Interesting Zaotar.
  • Qur'an's Pointless Stories
     Reply #28 - August 26, 2014, 05:48 PM

    What is particularly strange is that the Qur'an is so explicit about this -- it is delivered by its speakers in Arabic so that its recipients can understand the holy message, the same holy message contained in the holy scriptures that its listeners cannot readily understand (due to the limited grasp of Aramaic/Syriac amongst the Arabs).  There was no Arabic translation of the Bible or the Gospels until long after Islam's rise.  Thus the only way any Arab could have understood any of the Holy Scripture is if the Arab (a) had terrific Aramaic language ability; or (b) somebody who understood the Holy Scriptures (invariably in Syriac/Aramaic form) relayed their contents and message in Arabic vernacular.

    'Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in a language) other than Arabic they could have said: Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a book) not in Arabic and (a messenger) an Arab? Say: It is a guide and a healing to those who believe ...' (Al-Qur'an 41: 44).

    Qur'an 16:103 ----- And We certainly know that they say, "It is only a human being who teaches the Prophet." The tongue of the one they refer to is foreign, and this Qur'an is [in] a clear Arabic language.

    In other words, exactly the same as the Targums, or the Syriac homiletic tradition.  Btw, what was the 'foreign tongue' of 16:103?  Certainly Aramaic, but which few of the Arabs could understand anymore (back in the day, elite Nabatean Arabs spoke Aramaic as a lingua franca, but that had been declining).
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