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Theme Changer

 Topic: Sex

 (Read 11665 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Sex
     OP - September 11, 2014, 10:40 AM
    They say if you want to get people's attention, you should put the word "sex" in the title. Just kidding...

    I have a serious question that I would love all your reflections on.

    Do you experience any sexual shame due to your religion, and how do you live with that?

    I imagine that there are lots of sexual restrictions in Islam. I know there are plenty in Christianity too. In Buddhism, celibacy is the most moral path to take, and this is why monks and nuns are celibate.

    I can accept that sex is not immoral and that there's nothing wrong with consenting couples doing whatever they please. Yet, I still feel "purer" inside if I don't have sex or masturbate. I am female.

    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Sex
     Reply #1 - September 11, 2014, 10:48 AM
    My sexuality is not something I feel is shameful.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sex
     Reply #2 - September 11, 2014, 11:18 AM
    My fantasies are female on female fetish type stuff. It's not that which causes me grief though.

    Some of the shame comes from feeling that I am treating my fellow human beings unfairly because of sexual desire.

    I want to be a moral person and treat others fairly, but the truth is that I could never sleep with an unattractive person. I feel guilty, like I've committed a sin, that I even think of some people as "unattractive".

    I want to treat all people fairly. I don't want to exclude the possibility of a relationship with someone who is intelligent and kind just because I don't find them sexually attractive.

    I feel like a terrible person.
    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Sex
     Reply #3 - September 11, 2014, 11:25 AM
    Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 11, 2014, 11:18 AM
    My fantasies are female on female fetish type stuff. It's not that which causes me grief though.

    Some of the shame comes from feeling that I am treating my fellow human beings unfairly because of sexual desire.

    I want to be a moral person and treat others fairly, but the truth is that I could never sleep with an unattractive person. I feel guilty, like I've committed a sin, that I even think of some people as "unattractive".

    I want to treat all people fairly. I don't want to exclude the possibility of a relationship with someone who is intelligent and kind just because I don't find them sexually attractive.

    I feel like a terrible person.


    Wait, so you dislike sex because you're more attracted to certain people than others?...
    أشهد أن لا إله
  • Sex
     Reply #4 - September 11, 2014, 11:41 AM
    Quote
    Wait, so you dislike sex because you're more attracted to certain people than others?...


    Not just that. On one hand, I feel a certain "specialness" about people who can refrain from sex, after years of being told that celibacy is the most moral path. I try to tell myself there's no difference between people who have sex and those who don't. But something deep inside of me doesn't feel it. If I'm honest, I have this intuiative feeling that celibates are somehow better.

    I know intuition isn't necessarily the truth. But it's like the fear of Hell that I see spoken about on this forum. The feeling just doesn't go away.

    I can also sort of understand why the Buddha thought sex causes suffering to human beings. Look at all the body image problems people have because they realize they're not attractive.

    Yes, I feel guilty that I am attracted to, say, slim girls. I feel like a potential partner should not be judged by their weight. I want to judge people's relationship potential by their mind and how kind they are, not the body and face they were born with. I don't want to turn away a potential partner who is a lovely person just because I'm not sexually attracted to them.
    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Sex
     Reply #5 - September 11, 2014, 11:56 AM
    Sexual desire isn't something we can control. We can control our actions in response to this, but we don't pick and choose what we are and are not attracted to. What is unattractive to you is attractive to somebody else, and that goes for human beings as well. I would not have sex with someone I'm not attracted to. This isn't immoral, it's normal. It also has no baring whatsoever on my views of the person. My attraction or lack of attraction to someone doesn't mean that I automatically class them as a good person, a kind person, an intelligent person, or the reverse.

    I am attractive to some people. I am not attractive to others. It doesn't matter that only some people find me sexually attractive instead of every human on earth. As for partners, prettiness alone will never work long term. You must be able to connect with someone on a deeper level than that if you wish for anything substantial. Though that said, you can not be terribly attracted to a person, grow close, develop deep bonds and find that desire grows.

    I disagree that celibacy is the most moral path. If a person chooses to be celibate that's fine, there's nothing wrong with it on an individual level, but sexuality is a natural part of what it means to be human. There's nothing wrong with it. The only sin committed is by those who teach that our very natures are something shameful.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sex
     Reply #6 - September 11, 2014, 11:57 AM
    First, welcome to the forum, VI  parrot

    Sounds like your views are, understandably, still very much influenced by your Buddhist upbringing and, I'm guessing, environment. This will fade with time, as you'll see from the experience of others on this forum.

    Just because you see one person as physically attractive, and another as physically unattractive, doesn't make you a bad person in any way whatsoever! Please don't think like that. We're human, and one of the attributes of being human is finding certain physical features and characteristics attractive, and others not so attractive. Indeed, if everyone was immediately sexually attracted to everyone else, we would be in trouble!

    Two points: 1) if someone is looking for sex, then of course they will be looking for a partner who is physically attractive. Otherwise what's the point? 2) if someone is looking for a relationship, then sex won't be the first thing on  their mind. Relationships develop over time, as you get to know one another. Alongside this, mutual respect and understanding grow, and the attraction becomes focussed on who the person is, not necessarily what they look like. You'll also find that, as you develop feelings for someone, you'll find them more and more attractive in every way, including physically. So no need to worry about looks to start with!

    Regarding the fetish you mention, this is interesting. I think most people have thoughts like these, to varying degrees. Whether you act upon them or not, depends how close and open your relationship is with your partner.

    Easier said than done, but try not to dwell on these thoughts as you'll only make yourself feel more guilty, thus making it harder to attract the type of partner and/or relationship your are seeking. As I said before, these feelings will subside as you grow more comfortable with your new outlook on life. You have to, have to love yourself, before others will truly love you: if you don't really know or understand your own self, how can anyone else? Once anyone masters this, it will be like they've been re-born.
  • Sex
     Reply #7 - September 11, 2014, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 11, 2014, 11:41 AM
    The feeling just doesn't go away.

    Perhaps a more constructive way would be to say the feeling doesn't just go away. Meaning, these feelings will fade, but it will take time. You must believe this, and look for reassurance by reading (or re reading) what others have said here on CEMB.
  • Sex
     Reply #8 - September 11, 2014, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 11, 2014, 11:56 AM
    Sexual desire isn't something we can control. ...  This isn't immoral, it's normal. ... I disagree that celibacy is the most moral path. ... The only sin committed is by those who teach that our very natures are something shameful.

    Quod makes some very valid points here. Think of it this way: if everyone was to be 'moral' as you currently define morality, humanity would cease to exist! Physically impossible to reproduce without sex!
  • Sex
     Reply #9 - September 11, 2014, 12:09 PM
    I am quite sure that V.I. is overthinking this.

    Sexual attraction is perfectly normal, and you have little or no control over who you "fancy".

    Why on Earth celibacy is so appealing to you is beyond my ability to understand, especially when you consider the dreadful perversions it has caused in many a Catholic Priest.

    If you supress natural urges and instincts, it often manifests itself in inappropriate and damaging behaviour.

    Forming a relationship with one person does not mean that you are rejecting the rest of humanity, and you are not going to hurt people's feelings by entering into a monogamous relationship.

    Try not to overthink things.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Sex
     Reply #10 - September 11, 2014, 12:16 PM
    Thank you so much Quod Sum Eris, Jrg, and Stephen for taking the time to give thoughtful replies.

    I know you are right that this will fade in time, but -and this is going to sound really stupid- now that I no longer believe in existence beyond death, I feel that I am so short on time. I feel like all this time I'm struggling is just wasted time that I could be spending out enjoying myself.

    But enough whinging from me.
    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Sex
     Reply #11 - September 11, 2014, 12:24 PM
    You're an ape, I'm an ape, we're all apes with a billion years of evolutionary instinct in our hindbrains. Sex is one of those instincts. Nothing wrong with it, that's just what we are. Most religions are harmful because they suppress normal behaviour while promoting batshit-insane ones.

    I also used to find celibacy attractive as it was a means of control over more basic impulses. I dumped that when I realized sex is a time-honed means of receiving and giving joy - going solo, with a partner or multiple partners - and voluntarily making yourself an unhappy git isn't much fun. Love yourself and love whoever you want, even if it's just for a moment.
  • Sex
     Reply #12 - September 11, 2014, 12:27 PM
    Quote from: Stephen on September 11, 2014, 12:09 PM
    If you supress natural urges and instincts, it often manifests itself in inappropriate and damaging behaviour.

    And yet no matter how often this proves to be the case, people still insist otherwise.

    Villiage_Idiot, we have a finite time on this earth. Our lives will one day come to an end, and it can feel overwhelming that one day we will simply cease to be. This isn't something to panic about. You don't need to go dashing around madly. By all means have fun, explore the world, have adventures, and take advantage of all the wonderful things out there. Life is precious and every moment will be something we can never live again. But don't feel you have to do everything at once. Don't feel overwhelmed by the need to do everything now because our lifespan is limited. We experience life with every breath. Every kiss. Every cup of tea. Enjoy life as much as you can, and while you worry about the big things and work towards them, try not to overlook the small things. They can be rather wonderful.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sex
     Reply #13 - September 11, 2014, 12:47 PM
    Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 11, 2014, 12:16 PM
    Thank you so much Quod Sum Eris, Jrg, and Stephen for taking the time to give thoughtful replies.

    I know you are right that this will fade in time, but -and this is going to sound really stupid- now that I no longer believe in existence beyond death, I feel that I am so short on time. I feel like all this time I'm struggling is just wasted time that I could be spending out enjoying myself.

    But enough whinging from me.

    VI you're most welcome.

    You're not stupid. You're also not am idiot, which is why I'll only call you VI :p these feelings are all part of the human condition. If we were always happy and cheerful, life would get very tedious.

    Your time is also far from being wasted. We need time to think, space to breath and process what's going on in our lives and minds. Consider this: nobody ever makes a wrong or bad decision. We all, only ever, make the best decisions we can, given our current perception of our circumstances and world view. Once you realise this fact, the past is so much easier to let go of and move on from. You'll find yourself forgiving people so much more easily. But most of all, you'll come to truly value, appreciate and enjoy life.

    Finally, never enough whining from anyone. Not until you've got it out your system and are ready to take the bull that is life by the horns, and get on with the purpose you find and you make for yourself.

    Whine away! It's one reason were here we're Smiley
  • Sex
     Reply #14 - September 11, 2014, 12:48 PM
     Huh? I feel like I've been possessed by the yeez  wacko
  • Sex
     Reply #15 - September 11, 2014, 01:11 PM
    V.I. Nothing that you have said so far is stupid.  Religion (any religion) messes with your head, and you have that to thank for your current feelings.

    As the inestimable Quod advised you, enjoy every breath and every kiss. 

    Once you have developed the ability to weed out the chancers, and you have identified the people who are genuine, you can start to enjoy your life to the full.  Of course you will make mistakes, as we all do, but you don't need to beat yourself up over them.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Sex
     Reply #16 - September 11, 2014, 01:30 PM
    Quote
    As the inestimable Quod advised you, enjoy every breath and every kiss. 

    And every cup of tea... I liked that  Afro
  • Sex
     Reply #17 - September 11, 2014, 01:34 PM
    I just noticed I posted "Ever cup of tea" instead of every. Grin

    Fixed. Afro
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sex
     Reply #18 - September 11, 2014, 01:37 PM
    There are a lot of reasons for feeling guilt about one's sexuality, even after leaving the repressive environment of one's faith. However, I think at least in my experience its clear that this is just another manifestation of that religious influence rearing itself again.

    Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 11, 2014, 11:18 AM
    My fantasies are female on female fetish type stuff. It's not that which causes me grief though.

    Some of the shame comes from feeling that I am treating my fellow human beings unfairly because of sexual desire.

    I want to be a moral person and treat others fairly, but the truth is that I could never sleep with an unattractive person. I feel guilty, like I've committed a sin, that I even think of some people as "unattractive".

    I want to treat all people fairly. I don't want to exclude the possibility of a relationship with someone who is intelligent and kind just because I don't find them sexually attractive.

    I feel like a terrible person.


    I've felt this way myself, like there was something wrong with the discrimination of my sexual desires. However, think of it instead this way. Sex is an expression of mutual desire and pleasure, right? In that case wouldn't you be doing a disservice to your potential partner by deluding oneself of the mutually desirous nature of the relation? And is it not possible then that this very discrimination that you feel guilt over, is a tool to prevent such suffering?

    Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 11, 2014, 11:41 AM
    Not just that. On one hand, I feel a certain "specialness" about people who can refrain from sex, after years of being told that celibacy is the most moral path. I try to tell myself there's no difference between people who have sex and those who don't. But something deep inside of me doesn't feel it. If I'm honest, I have this intuiative feeling that celibates are somehow better.

    I know intuition isn't necessarily the truth. But it's like the fear of Hell that I see spoken about on this forum. The feeling just doesn't go away.

    I can also sort of understand why the Buddha thought sex causes suffering to human beings. Look at all the body image problems people have because they realize they're not attractive.

    Yes, I feel guilty that I am attracted to, say, slim girls. I feel like a potential partner should not be judged by their weight. I want to judge people's relationship potential by their mind and how kind they are, not the body and face they were born with. I don't want to turn away a potential partner who is a lovely person just because I'm not sexually attracted to them.


    It is a difficult issue, but I do think you are likely over-thinking this. There is an inherent inequality that manifests itself among humans on this planet. Not everyone will be found desirous to others, nor do they have the right to expect as much. I don't think that's a reason to feel bad about one's sexual preferences.

    Quote from: Villiage_Idiot on September 11, 2014, 12:16 PM
    Thank you so much Quod Sum Eris, Jrg, and Stephen for taking the time to give thoughtful replies.

    I know you are right that this will fade in time, but -and this is going to sound really stupid- now that I no longer believe in existence beyond death, I feel that I am so short on time. I feel like all this time I'm struggling is just wasted time that I could be spending out enjoying myself.

    But enough whinging from me.


    That desperation too is likely to pass, as for me at least it is clear that life is better enjoyed at a deliberate and mindful pace.

    And thank you for expressing your views on your sexuality and repression. I think it can be helpful for those of us whose religions have exerted such an influence to critically examine our ideas on sex, so I appreciate the opportunity.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Sex
     Reply #19 - September 11, 2014, 01:39 PM
    Quod, this sounds rather like mindfulness. Is that something you're interested in?

    VI, to show I'm not hijacking your thread  whistling2... mindfulness could help you to put Quod's ideas into practice.
  • Sex
     Reply #20 - September 11, 2014, 01:39 PM
    -
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Sex
     Reply #21 - September 11, 2014, 01:42 PM
    -
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Sex
     Reply #22 - September 11, 2014, 01:46 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on September 11, 2014, 11:56 AM
    Brilliant things.


    Quote from: jrg on September 11, 2014, 11:57 AM
    Brilliant things.


    Quote from: Stephen on September 11, 2014, 12:09 PM
    Brilliant things.


    Quote from: shaytanshoes on September 11, 2014, 12:24 PM
    Brilliant things.


    Great insights all, guys.  Afro
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Sex
     Reply #23 - September 11, 2014, 01:48 PM
    Quote from: asbie on September 11, 2014, 01:37 PM
    And thank you for expressing your views on your sexuality and repression. I think it can be helpful for those of us whose religions have exerted such an influence to critically examine our ideas on sex, so I appreciate the opportunity.


    This is an exceptionally good point. Sex and sexuality are things that should be openly talked about, not hidden away in a shameful manner. A good, fulfilling sex life, for both partners, is fundamental to a good and healthy relationship/marriage. How can you get to that level of intimacy if sex is surrounded by guilt and shame? Sex is a form of communication - the closest and most meaningful we have. So communicate as you will (mutually and consensually of course)! It's nobody else's business so nothing to worry about.
  • Sex
     Reply #24 - September 11, 2014, 02:08 PM
    Quote from: jrg on September 11, 2014, 01:39 PM
    Quod, this sounds rather like mindfulness. Is that something you're interested in?

    I'd actually never heard of it before, just googled it.

    "Mindfulness is 'The intentional, accepting and non-judgmental focus of one's attention on the emotions, thoughts and sensations occurring in the present moment'."

    I suppose this reflects in some way my own outlook on things. Feelings by themselves can sometimes be destructive. Love can be just as destructive as hate. Obsession can be as destructive as apathy. It depends how we go about it. But transcending emotions is something I have no interest in. What connects us to life is the simple truth that we are part of it. We live, we grow, we change, we want. If we could live without desire we would undoubtedly know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuddered and dank. No love. No hate. No joy. No sorrow. No laughter. No tears. This is not a life I would wish for. The fundamental truth of the matter is that it's our desires that make us human. Without passion, without desire, we may as well be dead.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sex
     Reply #25 - September 11, 2014, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: shaytanshoes on September 11, 2014, 12:24 PM
    You're an ape, I'm an ape, we're all apes with a billion years of evolutionary instinct in our hindbrains. Sex is one of those instincts. Nothing wrong with it, that's just what we are. Most religions are harmful because they suppress normal behaviour while promoting batshit-insane ones.

    I also used to find celibacy attractive as it was a means of control over more basic impulses. I dumped that when I realized sex is a time-honed means of receiving and giving joy - going solo, with a partner or multiple partners - and voluntarily making yourself an unhappy git isn't much fun. Love yourself and love whoever you want, even if it's just for a moment.

  • Sex
     Reply #26 - September 11, 2014, 02:23 PM
    Villiage_Idiot and jrg (and possibly Stephen as well) you may be interested in a post  I wrote to a member struggling with losing his faith. I apologise in advance for the spelling mistakes, I was incredibly tired when I wrote it. But you may find it beneficial.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24235.msg697248#msg697248
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sex
     Reply #27 - September 11, 2014, 05:30 PM
    Thank you, Quod.   I enjoyed reading your thoughts, which you expressed very well.

    Have a  parrot for your trouble.

    Kind Regards,
    Stephen.
  • Sex
     Reply #28 - September 11, 2014, 05:46 PM
    I find it interesting that you say that you "intuitively" find celibacy to be better. How would humanity survive and continue without sex and procreation. So how do you define "intuition"? What is that? It seems to me, that your "intuition" is not "intuition", but your upbringing and culture, and the faith/ideology that has shaped you throughout your life. That is not intuition. That is socialization.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Sex
     Reply #29 - September 11, 2014, 06:30 PM
    ^ true i think a some of it is to do with socialization but i think a lot of it depends on your personality, plus everyone has different levels of sex drive that can shape their thinking too.   
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