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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2820 - August 04, 2018, 01:36 PM

    dear Mahgraye I like your posts and I read them VERY CAREFULLY but I have problem............... I often read such statements in your posts without any links..  for e.g.
    ........................


    Oh I see....  I guess  I understood your problem of not giving links for your asserting posts  dear  Mahgraye., Almost all of your posts are coming from phone or some other similar device right?? that is the reason I don't see any links in your 260 or so posts ....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2821 - August 04, 2018, 04:11 PM

    Finished Qurans;

    1st C is rather 1st C AH. The age of the manuscripts is also debatable (+/- 50 yrs). So we really dont have a precise date for what the islamic awareness list represents.

    Statistically, because we have so many 1st century manuscripts, if they were complete from the beginning and have been fragmented randomly, all verses/words should be accounted for. So that would make 100 percent not 99 percent. This 1 percent (or is it 5 or 2.5 or 3.2 %, not important in the discussion), becomes very interesting because they are good candidates for possible later additions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2822 - August 04, 2018, 04:44 PM

    My apologies, Yeezevee. As you noted, my comment was written via my phone and thus I could not provide any sources or an elaborate response. But since I am home, I can now provide some details.

    1: 99 % of today's Quran is represented in our first century manuscripts.

    Although no complete (i.e. codex) Koran dates, at least with any certainty, earlier than 3rd/9th century (AH 300), to claim based on this that the entire (or most of it) Koran did not exist in the seventh century, is a non-sequitur, for the reasons given below.

    In 2001, the late S. Noja Noseda, professor of Arabic Language and Literature at the Università Cattolica in Milan, alongside François Déroche, a specialist of Arab manuscripts at the National Library of France, analyzed the contents of all hijazid manuscripts securely dated to the seventh century. By comparing the extant manuscripts to the King Fuʾād edition, they concluded that 83 % of the Koran is represented in those manuscripts. Note, however, that Noseda & Déroche did not include in their analysis Koran materials written on papyri, inscriptions, nor the famous Sanaa palimpsest (Sanaa, Inv. 01-27.1). Taking this into account, and considering a more recent analysis by islamic-awareness.org, the number given by Noseda & Déroche must be higher, somewhere around 90 %.

    Most recently, this conclusion is bolstered by the German expert Nicolai Sinai, professor of Islamic Studies and Fellow of Pembroke College, and currently a researcher at the Corpus Coranicum project, which he co-founded alongside Angelika Neuwirth and Michael Marx. In his latest book, published in 2017, Sinai looked at the earliest manuscript evidence and concluded that: “[A] very considerable portion of the Qurʾānic text was around, albeit not without variants, by the 650s.”  

    Going back to the Sanaa palimpsest, the late Patricia Crone, who was known for her “revisionist” theories due to her earlier work, wrote that the manuscript derived from a complete Koran, an observation accepted by all textual critics as Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, Elizabeth Puin, Behnam Sadeghi, Mohsen Goudarzi, Uwe Bergmann, Asma Hilali, to name but a few. Based on the radiocarbon dating, Crone concluded:

    Quote
    There was a complete Qurʾān by the second half of the seventh century. It was not identical with the one we have today in every detail, but the variants do not change the fact that it is the same book. There is also the question of whether it included all the suras now in it, more specifically whether it included sūrat al-baqara or left it as a separate book. But for all that, we have a hard fact: the Qurʾān existed by the time when the tradition says it existed. There is no longer any good reason to doubt that ʿUthmān set up a commission that produced a Qurʾān.


    Notice how Crone goes further than Sinai, in that she asserts that there was complete Koran by the 650s, which indeed is very significant, especially coming from a leading scholar who was by no means conservative in her thinking.

    As to the remaining 1 %, consult the study made by islamic-awareness.org.

    Quote
    I guess 1st century means.. did you mean ... is it around 750 AD??

     

    First/seventh century: 622–722

    My source for the 9 earliest manuscripts is: M. Lamsiah, Makhṭūṭāt al-Qurʾān: madkhal li-dirāsat al-makhṭūṭāt al-qadīma (Canada: Water Life Publishing, 2017), p. 82. I only took the liberty of adding no. 6 and the date ranges.

    Hope this answered your questions. As always, best regards.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2823 - August 04, 2018, 04:48 PM

    Quote
    So we really dont have a precise date for what the islamic awareness list represents.

    Yes. They're doing this on purpose.
    You thought that islamic awareness was scientific? You're wrong. I thought that as well (long time ago...) You have to check what they said except for (very) simple things...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2824 - August 04, 2018, 04:51 PM

    Although no complete (i.e. codex) Koran dates, at least with any certainty, earlier than 3rd/9th century (AH 300)



    This the most important information for some scholars : they hold that it proves that the (entire) text in the 7th or 8th was not written.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2825 - August 04, 2018, 04:52 PM

    Maggraye,


    Interesting resumé. But do you agree that the remaining 1 % could be of special interest?

    The statistic chance of their absence if they were included by 650 is small...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2826 - August 04, 2018, 04:55 PM

    Altara,

    Islamic Awareness
    I know they are biased and probably very biased. I always take that into account. But upto now, they provide the most practical lists. I wish respected scholars would give an upto date overview but alaas.... they dont seem to find any thesis/phd student to delegate the job to. So we have to make due with Islamic Awareness Cry
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2827 - August 04, 2018, 05:10 PM

    My apologies, Yeezevee.

    ........Nooooooooooooo
    no apologies needed for that  but confirmation of this

    Quote
    1.)   99 % of today's Quran is represented in our first century manuscripts.

    is important.   So 99%  of present day Quran appeared in that first century after the death of Prophet of Islam?? ..  In other words if we assume year 632 AD as   the year death of Prophet of Islam., then by the year 732 ..  99 % of today's Quran is already known/published..

    did I get that right?

    Assuming that report is fairly accurate ., So 114 Surahs  of Quran which contains ~6230 verses roughly 70 or so verse were added in to Quran after the year 730/740...

    does that make any sense dear Mahgraye?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2828 - August 04, 2018, 05:16 PM

    It has nothing to do with Muhammad, really. All we are saying is that when we compare the 1923 Cairo printed edition with the hijazid manuscripts from the first century, we can observe that ca. 90 % of the former is represented in those manuscripts. So, yeah, it makes sense to claim that the Quran as we know existed in the first century—that is, between AD 622 and 722. This is based on manuscripts, which is important.

    Oh! Verses were not added after 730/740 AD. Marijn van Putten's article (unpublished) on this topic attempts to demonstrate - based on the extant manuscripts - that the canon was closed to further additions after the year AD 650.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2829 - August 04, 2018, 05:33 PM

    Quote
    Assuming that report is fairly accurate ., So 114 Surahs  of Quran which contains ~6230 verses roughly 70 or so verse were added in to Quran after the year 730/740..


    No because:

    1/ we are not certain about the dates of the manuscript

    2/Statistically it is almost impossible if from the beginning it was a COMPLETE quran, that by 730 we dont have any attestation for certain verses. That is an indication that the oldest Qurans were not complete, that gradually parts or at least verses (almost statistically certain for this last 1 percent) were added later in the 7th C. Could be later than 730 too (but less likelyhood).  For later than the first manuscript we are statistically as good as certain.They can have been added eg in 670 and been lost "accidentally, ad random". But highly unlikely that these verses were already there in 650 when first Quran was produced. If they were there consistently from the beginning (assume 650), they would have been in list going upto 730. The number of Quran parts that are extant are that many that statistically the complete Quran would have turned up in one manuscript or the other.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2830 - August 04, 2018, 06:57 PM

    There is no longer any good reason to doubt that ʿUthmān set up a commission that produced a Qurʾān.


    I wonder how she can state that. There is nothing to back it up.

    Thanks for the islamicawareness site link. I will look into it to see if I find the answers I want regarding manuscripts/datation/suras.

    Regarding the datations of Quran, John of Damascus writings make it impossible to have had a complete Quran before the 1st century AH.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eftyd3Sifag
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2831 - August 04, 2018, 07:00 PM

    Jay Smith is a notorious liar who cannot be trusted. He has no rudimentary knowledge of the subject he discusses. The idiot does not even know what the first century is. He is so damn stupid that apologist can refute him without any problems. Please do not anything from this guy.

    Quote
    Regarding the datations of Quran, John of Damascus writings make it impossible to have had a complete Quran before the 1st century AH.


    Manuscripts and a host of other lines of evidences invalidate the John of Damascus' assertions. No need to resort to indirect evidence when we have the material evidence right in front of us.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2832 - August 04, 2018, 07:35 PM

     John of Damascus has never got any Quranic mushaf before his eyes. (yawn)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2833 - August 04, 2018, 07:39 PM

    So, no mushaf until the late eighth century, beginning of the ninth, as per Wansbrough?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2834 - August 04, 2018, 07:43 PM

     Not for John of Damascus in any case. For others, why not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2835 - August 04, 2018, 07:44 PM

    If one accepts John of Damascus's testimony, then one must conclude, as did Wansbrough, that a mushaf cannot be dated earlier than the beginning of the third/ninth century? Do you ahdere to this view? No codex before the late eighth century?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2836 - August 04, 2018, 08:02 PM

    As I said, John of Damascus has never got any Quranic mushaf before his eyes. Suffice to reflect 5 minutes to understand why, in reading his attestation.

    Other thing is to say that at his time, there was no mushaf, like JW said. But what JW said is that a canonical mushaf did not exist before the ninth century Canonical And he's right. if you think canonical as a chosen reading, etc.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2837 - August 04, 2018, 08:06 PM

    It is weird John of Damascus was so mistaken. He clearly was not the dumbest kid in the class...

    We expect muslim warriors to have perfect memories (hearing Mohammed recite the Quran and memorizing it perfectly just from hearing it) but John cant even make a precise summary of the Quran...

    Yes, Altara, I agree that this indicates that John never had a Quran in his hands, and people telling about it did not have perfect memories but fantasized or didnt remember well.

    One would think this is an argument for the very limited distribution and impact of the Quran in the early years, but we have so many extant copies, that that seem  not really tenable. On the other hand, the scriptio defectiva and the layout of the codex didnt really promote easy reading.... So we have a Quran being kept somewhere in a back room, not being read as so many books today  (eg bibles))?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2838 - August 04, 2018, 08:13 PM

    Addressing all of these claims would take a lot of time and effort. Not sure were to start, because some of Wansbrough's closest disciples and interpreters rejected his claim. Who have you guys read on the redaction of the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2839 - August 04, 2018, 08:36 PM

    Jay Smith is a notorious liar who cannot be trusted. He has no rudimentary knowledge of the subject he discusses. The idiot does not even know what the first century is. He is so damn stupid that apologist can refute him without any problems. Please do not anything from this guy.


    He didn't do the work he is talking in that video. Someone just highlighted the fact that, even today, Qurans are not a unique book but books with different words depending on the editor, and this beyond the so called canonical readings.

    Quote
    Manuscripts and a host of other lines of evidences invalidate the John of Damascus' assertions. No need to resort to indirect evidence when we have the material evidence right in front of us.


    So you have a Quran with a surah talking about the camel of God ? Or you think he was mixing suras and hearsay/ahadith in his commentary ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2840 - August 04, 2018, 08:39 PM



    One would think this is an argument for the very limited distribution and impact of the Quran in the early years, but we have so many extant copies, that that seem  not really tenable.

     

    It is not tenable as we have inscriptions (720) which attests the contrary (impact of the Quran) to mere peoples.

    Quote
    On the other hand, the scriptio defectiva and the layout of the codex didnt really promote easy reading.... So we have a Quran being kept somewhere in a back room, not being read as so many books today  (eg bibles))?


     A scriptio defectiva (Arabic/Hebraic) is perfectly readable. That is the script used by mere people : PERF 558
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2841 - August 04, 2018, 10:25 PM

    Miriam Hjälm - Scriptures beyond Words: “Islamic” Vocabulary in Early Christian Arabic Bible Translations

    https://www.uco.es/servicios/publicaciones/revistas/index.php/cco/article/download/1071/971
    Quote
    This article discusses the use of “Islamic” vocabulary in Christian Arabic Bible translations composed around the 9th century. It suggests that there is a link between such use and the translation’s Vorlage dependence, function, and the general translation technique attested in it. The article further proposes that a function of translations containing a notable and seemingly deliberate use of Islamic-sounding vocabulary was to show that the Christian Scriptures were able to absorb the message of Islam, just like early Christian Arabic theologians promulgated the idea that Christian dogmas permeated the Qurʾān. Thus, instead of shielding their Scriptures from a competing religion by dressing them in a more neutral linguistic register, these translators and authors presented a Christianity essentially elevated beyond words and contexts and therefore portrayable in any of them.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2842 - August 04, 2018, 11:23 PM

    Since you we are discussing the redaction of the Quran, when do you guys think the consonantal skeleton reached closure and the text ceased to be open to further change and redaction?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2843 - August 04, 2018, 11:59 PM

    Addressing all of these claims would take a lot of time and effort. Not sure were to start, because some of Wansbrough's closest disciples and interpreters rejected his claim. Who have you guys read on the redaction of the Quran?


    Wansbrough has made one thing : separate the Quranic text from the narrative. He did it in a cryptic way. But he did.  "Some of Wansbrough's closest disciples and interpreters rejected his claim" : yes like Crone. Crone, in fact, and it's awful to say this, did not get it. At the end she tried to address the Quran. It's like some Shaddel or Anthony... the recitation of the narrative. She did not get the text. Nothing. It's terrible because she suspected that the narrative was fiction, but she was not really sure, and she did not take a risk. She had taken a risk with Hagarism. It was enough. She could not really put aside the narrative which has prevented her to comprehend something.  If she had thought one time that there had no prophet, Zem Zem Kaba, Mecca, Khalid b. Walid, Companions and all the stuff and if she had been really free in his mind (difficult with the Hagarism experience)...  Maybe something would have been possible...But... we never know. It's too bad.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2844 - August 05, 2018, 12:10 AM

    Since you we are discussing the redaction of the Quran, when do you guys think the consonantal skeleton reached closure and the text ceased to be open to further change and redaction?


    Dye has demonstrated in "RÉFLEXIONS MÉTHODOLOGIQUES SUR LA « RHÉTORIQUE CORANIQUE » that the end of suras are interpolations. The core text has very few modification, I think... There was some modifications (kalala stuff) is plausible. When? Difficult. At the end of Abd al Malik/Hajjaj b.Yusuf (d.705/712) all of this has stopped. Then I'd say that 712 is the terminus ad quem.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2845 - August 05, 2018, 12:14 AM

    Emran El-Badawi - Syriac and the Qur’an

    https://www.academia.edu/37176546/Syriac_and_the_Qurʾa_n
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2846 - August 05, 2018, 12:21 AM

    Thanks. That answered my question. So, basically, you accept a Marwanid-era dating and reject Wansbrough's. Which sura are you referring to?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2847 - August 05, 2018, 05:46 AM

    Quote
    Since you we are discussing the redaction of the Quran, when do you guys think the consonantal skeleton reached closure and the text ceased to be open to further change and redaction?


    Very early. The manuscripts prove it. Except the Sanaa palimpsest, all preserved manuscripts show the canonical  rasm, no? As if from the onset, the moment the Quran left the scribal workshop, the text was fixed. No possibility to edit out the mistakes, first draft (or almost) was "printed".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2848 - August 05, 2018, 07:50 AM

    Thanks. That answered my question. So, basically, you accept a Marwanid-era dating and reject Wansbrough's. Which sura are you referring to?


    I'm referring to Dye "RÉFLEXIONS MÉTHODOLOGIQUES...", 2014, second part on his article (1st is on Cuypers) I make a translation via internet.

    "Let us return to the idea that there is often a close connection between
    the end of one sura and the beginning of the next sura. It is possible to
    give many examples.
    Thus, Q 1:6 (ihdinā ṣ-ṣirāṭa l-mustaqīm) "clings" very well
    to Q 2:2 (ḏālika l-kitābu lā rayba fīhi hudan li-l-muttaqīn), for
    thematic (the notion of guidance) and phonetic (mustaqīm
    /muttaqīn)
    Q 3:200 (wa-ttaqū llāha) and Q 4:1 (yā-'’ayyuhā
    n-nāsu ttaqū rabbakumu) both evoke the fear of God.
    Q 4:176 is a list of commands, to be compared to Q 5:1-2.
    Q 5:120 Praise God, whose kingdom is the heavens and the earth.
    Q 6:1 praises God who created the heavens and the earth.
    Using doxologies to finish one sura and start the next is also a very common process: see Q 15:96-99 vs Q 16:1 (the link is also made here around the theme of associationism) ; Q 17:111 vs Q 18:1 ; Q 36:83 vs Q 37:5 ; Q 56:96 vs Q 57:1.
    The theme of veracity of revelation and belief allows the link between Q 12:111 and Q 13:1 8, the "scripture science" that between Q 13:43 and Q 14:1, the lie that between Q 25:77 and the beginning of Q 26 (25:77, fa-qad kaḏḏabtum ; 26:6,
    fa-qad kaḏḏabū).
    Sometimes the idea expressed in one verse is explained in the other : cf. Q 26:227, on good works ('zakāta llaḏīna ʿamilū ṣalāta wa-yu’tūna ṣ-’āmanū) vs Q 27:1-3 (allaḏīna yuqīmūna ṣ-ṣalāta wa-yu'l’idée z-zakāta), or there is an antithesis between the two verses (Q 58:22 and the entry into Paradise vs Q 59:1 and the expulsion from houses).
    The formula "heaven and earth" is also used as "hook-word": cf. Q 24:64 vs Q 25:2 ; Q 42:53 vs Q 43:9 (plus the themes of divine omnipotence, and especially Scripture 1); Q 43:82-85 vs Q 44:6-11 ; Q 45:37 vs Q 46:2-3 (plus the formula al- ʿazīz al-ḥakīm).  The reference to the stars plays a comparable role between Q 52:49 and Q 53:1.
    Some themes can also be combined. A good example is
    constituted by the relationships between Q 9:127-129 and Q 10:1-4. It is about the messenger (9:128, la-qad ’a'akum rasūlun min'anfusi-kum vs 10:2,'a-kāna li-n-nāsi ʿaǧaban 'an ʿaǧaban nāsi ǧā’akum ’anfusi minhum), miscreants (9:127, 129 vs 10:2, 4), Scripture (9 : 127, sūra vs 10:1, ʿarši l-kitāb), and the Throne of Di :129, huwa rabbu l-ṯumma l-ʿaẓīm vs 10:3, ṯumma stawā ʿalā l-ars)

    In some cases, it is the beginnings of two consecutive suras that are linked. For example, two consecutive suras begin with identical or similar "mystery letters" (Q 2 and Q 3, Q 11 and Q 12, Q 14 and Q 15, Q 29 to Q 32, Q 40[or Q 392] to Q 46) or formulas (Q 12 and Q 13, Q 13 and Q 14), or identical or similar formulas (Q 27 and Q 28, Q 34 and Q 35, Q 61 and Q 62), or both with the same "mystery letters" and similar formulas (Q 39 to Q 46).
    In other cases, the beginnings of two consecutive suras are by a common theme (Q 53 and Q 54, Q 65 and Q 66).
    This phenomenon of the junction between the fin of one sura and the beginning of the next is particularly marked in the first part of the Koranic text. In
    In a few rare cases, the link is only made between the beginnings of the Suras: Q 2 and Q 3, Q 11 and Q 12, Q 27 and Q 28, Q 30 to Q 32, Q 34 and Q 35, Q 39 to Q 42, Q 44 and Q 45, Q 47 and Q 48.
    In other cases, it is done as well between the beginnings of two consecutive suras as between the fin of the first one and the beginning of the next: Q 12 and Q 13, Q 13 and Q 14, Q 14 and Q 15, Q 29 and Q 30, Q 42 to Q 44, Q 45 and Q 46.
    In most cases, however, it is done only between the fin of one sura and the beginning of the next one: Q 1 and Q 2, Q 3 to Q 6, Q 7 and Q 8, Q 9 to Q 11, Q 15 and Q 16, Q 17 and Q 18, Q 19 to Q 27, Q 32 to Q 34, Q 35 to Q 37, Q 46 and Q 47, Q 48 and Q 49.
    Up to Sura 50, there are very few exceptions: Q 6 and Q 7, Q 8 and Q 9 (but the lack of junction is easily explained if we were originally dealing with a single Sura), Q 16 and Q 17, Q 18 and Q 19, Q 28 and Q 29, Q 37 to Q 39, Q 49 and Q 50 - in other words, eight cases out of forty-nine, or 16.33% of cases, and therefore 83.67% where the principle works.
    If we make Q 8 and Q 9 a single sura, the principle works in 85.41% of cases. This cannot be due to chance.

    We also know that, roughly speaking (and with the exception of Fātiḥa), the suras are ordered, in the Qur'anic corpus, according to a decreasing order of length - even if this order allows exceptions.
    It is a classification system well known in antiquity, and it is already that of Paul's epistles. Among the exceptions mentioned in the previous paragraph, only the suras 6-7, 8-9, 49-50 do not follow this order of length  (three out of forty-eight cases, i.e. 6.25%, are therefore neither in the order of length, or the principle of bracketed sentences).
    One could then make the following reasoning. The ranking of suras in descending order of length is valid from generally speaking, despite a few exceptions.It is an order that does not depend on the content of the suras. This classification is also consistent with that which orders the suratas according to a system of bracket words and phrases, bringing the fin, and sometimes the beginning, of the N sura, closer to the beginning of the N + 1 sura.
    Now if we suppose that the Suras are independent compositions, which go back, in their entirety, to the time of the Prophet (i.e. before what is often called the collection of the Koran), how is it that there are only two classifications which in principle have nothing to do (classification according to length, order according to the sentences and bracketed words of the beginnings and fins of the Suras), 
    are consistent?
    In other words, by what miracle is the beginning of the sura N + 1 linked harmoniously with the end of the sura N, even though the suras are 
    find roughly orderly of the most long to short?
    The most plausible explanation is that it is the scribes who were given the task of composing the Koran who are responsible for these bracketed sentences, which means  that the fins of the Suras, and sometimes also the beginnings, were often added and written at the time of the composition of the Koran into one muṣḥaf.

    An examination of the passages concerned corroborate it. There are obvious interpolations (Q 4:176 ; 22:78 ; 26:227 ; 48:29), and others that may be less so, but that quickly become more related to the beginning of the next sura than to the preceding verses (Q 3:200).
     These passages are often introduced by qul ("Say : etc.") : Q 11:108-109 ; 17:111 ; 20:135 ; 21:112 (qāla); 23:118 ; 25:77. In my opinion, this is a good example of the editorial and editorial work of the
    scribes - a work that does not limit itself to replacing, with more or less freedom, the "pieces of a puzzle", but to writing verses and staging a prophetic figure and a speech addressed to Prophet.
    From this perspective, the The role of the scribes in the work of writing the Koran may not be any less than that of the scribes who composed the prophetic books of the Bible, even though the period between the The preaching of Muḥammad and the composition of the Koranic muṣḥaf is much shorter.
    One can think that the bulk of the Koranic text, in any case of the consonant ductus, is established during the second half of the VIIth century (it seems to me difficile to give a more precise date in the current state of research). It is therefore a process of composition more
    long than that indicated by the Muslim tradition, according to which the
    texts which form the Koran all existed at the death of the Prophet, even if (according to most traditions) they had not yet been brought together in a codex. But the main flaw of Bell and Blachère's hypotheses (almost systematically contested by Cuypers) is that they remain very dependent on the image of the Koran, and its history, given by the Muslim tradition.  Rhetorical  analysis invited us to see things differently.
    On the one hand, by highlighting the intertextuality that informs many Qur'anic passages, it reinforces the methodological approach that consists in reading the Qur'an, not according to the "biography" of Muḥammad, but in the light of references to biblical literature, namely not only the Bible and pseudepigraphic and apocryphal writings, but also
    also Christian and Jewish exegetical and homiletic literature (one could also add Manichean texts), without forgetting of course the oral and popular traditions, plus difficiles however, to study, since they left less than written records.
    This approach in terms of intertextuality, or rather of "subtext", is a fairly sure way to place the Koran back in its historical and literary context 1. I am thus Cuypers without the less reserved when he writes:

    What links does Sura 96 have with the historical figure of Muhammad? According to our reading, none. The links have been projected by tradition on the text through "occasions of revelation" (asbāb al-nuzūl) whose text bears no clear trace, either with regard to Muhammad's vocation, or with regard to the vexations he would have suffered in wanting to accomplish his prayer
    ritual.

    On the other hand, the rhetorical analysis informs us usefully on the profil of the writers of the Koranic text. Historical research rightly insists, for some time now, on the profil of the recipients of the Koranic message: the Koran is indeed such an allusive text in its biblical references that it can only be really understood by people who already know the stories to which he refers-- it is therefore not addressed to idolatrous pagans cut off from Jewish and Christian circles, but to one or more communities that are familiar with biblical narratives. But it does not suffit to make the profile listeners or readers of the Koran.
    It is advisable to be interested in that of its author, or (more probably) of its authors. What knowledge, for example about biblical narratives, or the Psalms, and skills (exegetical methods, composition techniques, etc.) should the author(s) of the Koran possess? It appears that, to date, such questions have been carefully avoided (with rare exceptions) in Koranic studies .
     This is unfortunate because these questions do arise, and are commonly asked in comparable fields, such as New Testament studies.
    What the analysis of many Suras shows, however, is that they were written by authors who had an in-depth and precise knowledge of biblical literature (in the broad sense) and of the methods of composition and exegesis (e.g. typology) which were used in Jewish and especially Christian circles-  methods of composition that are "more of scholarly writing It is not, of course, said to be true of all Suras.

    Cuypers thus suggests an environment where the Jewish or Christian presence is strong, and why not a monastic environment . This is not an isolated case. There are thus good reasons to consider that, in  the case of Sura 19, we are dealing with a later writer at the time of the Prophet, or at least a writer located elsewhere than in Ḥiǧāz Comparable remarks (later editor, rather located in Syria or Palestine) could be made about Q 3:33-63 5, and Cuypers is not far from saying the same about Sura 5. Having noted the insistence of the call to conversion of Christians, which structures a very important part of the Sura  5 he notices:

    "All this doesn't really fit in with the farewell pilgrimage, or even
    simply with Muhammad's prophetic career, as the story of the Sîra presents them. The place given in Sura 5 to Christians, and not just Jews, would invite us to
    consider a later time, when Islam was established in full Christianity. This perspective, as we know, is not in harmony with the Muslim tradition [...]. Unless you reverse the problem, and admit that the text of the Koran does indeed presuppose an important Christian presence in Mecca, even in Medina, which would also contradict the Muslim historical tradition. Is there a third term to escape this apparent dilemma?"

    In fact, the dilemma is very clear: it cannot be said that the framework
    the Muslim tradition is right, and at the same time, to take seriously the Koranic text. If we take the Koranic text seriously, we will indeed have to admit at least one of these possibilities. First hypothesis: Ḥiǧāz, at the time of the Prophet, has a level of  Christian presence, and of Christian literate culture, comparable to Syria-Palestine: otherwise says, not only are there Christians in Ḥiǧāz, and Christian ideas are known there, but one can also meet there the type of scribe likely to write texts like Q 3, Q 5 or Q 19.
    Second hypothesis: there is, at the time of the Prophet, a Christian presence in Ḥiǧāz, but the situation is not comparable to Syria-Palestine, nor even to what can be found further north in the Arabian Peninsula. If the "learned" Koranic passages were written at this time, they must have been written by writers further north, with whom the Arabs of the  Ḥiǧāz had connections.
    Third hypothesis: at least in part, the preaching of the Prophet was not
    in the Ḥiǧāz, but further north.
    Fourth hypothesis: the writing of the Qur'an must be further disconnected from the career of the Prophet, and consider that a substantive part of the Qur'an was written after the death of Muḥammad, still
    further north.  Of course, we must remain very careful - our knowledge and our documentation (especially in the absence of archaeological excavations in the 
    Ḥiǧāz  remain limited and imprecise but a model combining the second and fourth hypotheses seems to me the most plausible solution.

    This invites us to dig deeper into the environment in which the Koran originated - and to take into account a longer duration, and a wider geography, than that usually envisaged.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2849 - August 05, 2018, 08:32 AM

    Altara,

    Do you have the link in French or could you also post the French version? the translation is not great...
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