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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2850 - August 05, 2018, 09:34 AM
    Dye has not published it on Academia. I send you raw text in MP.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2851 - August 05, 2018, 11:34 AM
    Thank you Altara!

    Very interesting contribution. A very rational approach of G.Dye.

    I really liked his insistence on the Quran as a source of info on the author(s). Upto now I have heard too many scholars trying to recompose the Quranic audience (if it existed??) and forgetting to recompose the Quranic Author. I still believe that the Quran is a primary source of info on the author and only a secondary source for the audience.

    Dye concludes that the Quranic composition must have taken some time seen that there is clear evidence of redaction. But I really don't see why that must be the case. Imo the whole project could have been wrapped up around 650. 7th C was a time where a fluid divine text would not have impressed anyone. The arabs were in a position of power. If commissioning a divine text in a monastic scribal workshop, they had every reason to quickly canonise it. A few edits and it got a stamp " approved by Allah", ready for distribution. That would be consistent with the material evidence of the manuscripts (early fixation). Gallez' scenario of the quick collection of "the feuillets", together with the redaction in a scribal centre kind of makes sense...

    What surprises me is that Dye is not ready to let go of the idea that Mohammed and his followers might not have come out of Hijaz, but he is ready to let go of the Hijazi origin of the Quran. Maybe it is a next step?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2852 - August 05, 2018, 01:05 PM
    Quote
    Thank you Altara!

    Very interesting contribution. A very rational approach of G.Dye.


    1/ NP!
    2/Yes.

    Quote
    I really liked his insistence on the Quran as a source of info on the author(s). Up to now I have heard too many scholars trying to recompose the Quranic audience (if it existed??) and forgetting to recompose the Quranic Author. I still believe that the Quran is a primary source of info on the author and only a secondary source for the audience.


     The author(s) and the Quranic audience are linked as the  author(s) cannot tell things that audience cannot understand.

    Quote
    Dye concludes that the Quranic composition must have taken some time seen that there is clear evidence of redaction. But I really don't see why that must be the case.


    Because he sees interpolations (not only about what he address in the end of sura) , he then considers that the Quranic text is diachronic hence that time is needed.
    Quote
    Gallez' scenario of the quick collection of "the feuillets", together with the redaction in a scribal centre kind of makes sense...


    For me the Quranic text is far more complex than a text be written and collected "quick".

    Quote
    What surprises me is that Dye is not ready to let go of the idea that Mohammed and his followers might not have come out of Hijaz, but he is ready to let go of the Hijazi origin of the Quran. Maybe it is a next step?


    Can you elaborate?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2853 - August 05, 2018, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 05, 2018, 01:05 PM
    .....
    For me the Quranic text is far more complex than a text be written and collected "quick".

    Can you elaborate?

    that is interesting point Altara., So I am going to ask same question to you

     Can you elaborate on that point? lol..

    Is the Quranic text  far more complex in that original Arabic language or Translated versions??

    I read many English Translations of Quran many many times and I read few translation in other languages and I am learning Arabic language now.. Not sure   I am going to have enough expertise to dissect Quran in Arabic ..  But what I consider is QURAN IS THE SIMPLEST BOOK OF ALL if we read it properly..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2854 - August 05, 2018, 01:29 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    The author(s) and the Quranic audience are linked as the  author(s) cannot tell things that audience cannot understand.


    Don't agree. Too many assumptions.

    1st: Quran had an attentive audience from the beginning is not necessarily true. Let's compare it with a contemporary book that gets printed but no one buys. Or a magazine you get in the post but don't read. Or eg. a brochure commissioned by the government to explain a policy nobody cares for. Laws written in a language the minority doesnt understand. So many examples of texts nobody reads.

    2nd: Assumption that the reader understood the Quran (in the beginning) is not necessarily true. eg. Pakistani kids read and memorize the Q very actively. They understand nada. I have read the Quran (in English), half of it I didn't understand. Arabs read the Quran and often think they know what it means but probably have no notion of 7th C meaning. Ulysses from Joyce is one of the most studied books and very difficult to understand. Examples are legion of books/text that are read without the audience understanding. And some of above books/texts were not understood from the beginning of their existence.

    So the view that there is an automatic connection between author and audience is wrong imo.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2855 - August 05, 2018, 01:44 PM
    Mundi,

    What is the difference between Quran and magazine, brochures, Ulysses?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2856 - August 05, 2018, 01:47 PM
    Quote
    Is the Quranic text  far more complex in that original Arabic language or Translated versions??


    Both.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2857 - August 05, 2018, 01:49 PM
    Quote
    What surprises me is that Dye is not ready to let go of the idea that Mohammed and his followers might not have come out of Hijaz, but he is ready to let go of the Hijazi origin of the Quran. Maybe it is a next step?


    Dye chose hypothesis 2 and 4: Limited Christian presence in Hijaz, Quran written later in the North after Mohammed's death where there was an established Christian presence.

    The possibility that just like the Quran was not from Hijaz, Mohammed was not either is not mentioned but really not far fetched seen the evidence. If we didnt have the tradition, that would be the narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2858 - August 05, 2018, 01:52 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    What is the difference between Quran and magazine, brochures, Ulysses?


    It's a text. I can give you a lot of other examples. What about the Apocalypse?
    We don't need to give the Quran a special status when analysing the circumstances it was redacted in.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2859 - August 05, 2018, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 05, 2018, 01:49 PM
    Quote
    Dye chose hypothesis 2 and 4: Limited Christian presence in Hijaz, Quran written later in the North after Mohammed's death where there was an established Christian presence.

    1/ Yes.
    2/  Quran written later in the North after Mohammed's death. : for scholarly passages only (reread it if necessary) : The other passages being the work of the "Limited Christian presence in Hijaz" of hyp.2




    Quote
    The possibility that just like the Quran was not from Hijaz, Mohammed was not either is not mentioned but really not far fetched seen the evidence. If we didnt have the tradition, that would be the narrative.


    The story of Mohammed is in the Hijaz ; I cannot imagine a story like that elsewhere in the Orient which would have not spreading and without traces anywhere as it is now. Seems not plausible for me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2860 - August 05, 2018, 02:11 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 05, 2018, 01:52 PM
    Altara,

    It's a text. I can give you a lot of other examples. What about the Apocalypse?
    We don't need to give the Quran a special status when analysing the circumstances it was redacted in.


    You did not respond.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2861 - August 05, 2018, 02:56 PM
     
    Quote from: yeezevee says on August 05, 2018, 01:12 PM
    that is interesting point Altara., So I am going to ask same question to you

     Can you elaborate on that point? lol..

    Is the Quranic text  far more complex in that original Arabic language or Translated versions??

    I read many English Translations of Quran many many times and I read few translation in other languages and I am learning Arabic language now.. Not sure   I am going to have enough expertise to dissect Quran in Arabic ..  But what I consider is QURAN IS THE SIMPLEST BOOK OF ALL if we read it properly..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

      and Altara gives ONE WORD.. answer  Cheesy
    Quote from: Altara says on August 05, 2018, 01:47 PM
    Both.

    well one word is not good enough for rascals like me... Cheesy

    I wonder whether we could explore the reasons for the complexity  of  the EXISTING  QURAN in Arabic and the translated versions dear Altara?

    the  next point one should consider is that of Mahgraye's post at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg878659#msg878659

    Quote
    THAT THE PRESENT  QURAN IS 99% SAME AS THAT OF  first century manuscripts found/written in early 7th centuries


    what is your opinion on that ...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2862 - August 05, 2018, 03:02 PM
    Altara,
    Quote
    The story of Mohammed is in the Hijaz ; I cannot imagine a story like that elsewhere in the Orient which would have not spreading and without traces anywhere as it is now. Seems not plausible for me.


    The Hijaz as the black hole...

    We can compare the unknown origins of the Arab invaders with the Huns. Also where the Huns exactly came from we don't know. But the Huns didnt bring a literate sophisticated culture with them, the Arabs did. So much that their culture managed to dominate the existing Byzantine and Jewish culture. Indeed very weird that we don't know more where they are coming from.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2863 - August 05, 2018, 03:11 PM
    Quote
    The story of Mohammed is in the Hijaz ; I cannot imagine a story like that elsewhere in the Orient which would have not spreading and without traces anywhere as it is now. Seems not plausible for me.


    Maybe we should look at it differently: Indeed the story of Mohammed as we know it is very unlikely to take place in the Orient (and it didnt happen that way). Maybe he indeed didnt exist as Mohammed coming from the Hijaz as if from Mars. Maybe the Arabs were just a sect of people already living in the Orient, just as the Mormons were a sect originating in America and created a holy book and an army. Or the Cathars at the time... Only here is 7th C Orient and the sect is something between Christianity/Judaism/Zaroastrocism. Maybe it is not as weird as it looks?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2864 - August 05, 2018, 03:30 PM
    Quote
    Wansbrough has made one thing : separate the Quranic text from the narrative. He did it in a cryptic way. But he did.  "Some of Wansbrough's closest disciples and interpreters rejected his claim" : yes like Crone. Crone, in fact, and it's awful to say this, did not get it. At the end she tried to address the Quran. It's like some Shaddel or Anthony... the recitation of the narrative. She did not get the text. Nothing. It's terrible because she suspected that the narrative was fiction, but she was not really sure, and she did not take a risk. She had taken a risk with Hagarism. It was enough. She could not really put aside the narrative which has prevented her to comprehend something.  If she had thought one time that there had no prophet, Zem Zem Kaba, Mecca, Khalid b. Walid, Companions and all the stuff and if she had been really free in his mind (difficult with the Hagarism experience)...  Maybe something would have been possible...But... we never know. It's too bad.


    I obviously do not agree with your assessment of Crone and her work. Your text is - with all due respect - riddled with straw men. misconceptions, etc. Besides, Crone was not the only scholar I was referring to. Sorry if I come of as bitter or hostile.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2865 - August 05, 2018, 03:32 PM
    Quote
    Very early. The manuscripts prove it. Except the Sanaa palimpsest, all preserved manuscripts show the canonical  rasm, no? As if from the onset, the moment the Quran left the scribal workshop, the text was fixed. No possibility to edit out the mistakes, first draft (or almost) was "printed".


    Correct. The rasm is consistent across the manuscripts. Very well preserved. Everyone, including Wansbrough, concedes that. Since you prefer a much earlier date, you are closer to the Uthmanic recension. In other words, you reject the Marwanid era dating.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2866 - August 05, 2018, 03:40 PM
    Prof. Yasin Dutton's five hour seminar on the Quranic text is finally available.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLi3F7jTAtA&t=4873s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2867 - August 05, 2018, 03:49 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on August 05, 2018, 02:56 PM
      and Altara gives ONE WORD.. answer  :Dwell one word is not good enough for rascals like me... Cheesy

    I wonder whether we could explore the reasons for the complexity  of  the EXISTING  QURAN in Arabic and the translated versions dear Altara?

    the  next point one should consider is that of Mahgraye's post at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg878659#msg878659

    what is your opinion on that ...


    1/When I say complex, I mean that 1400 years later nobody knows what is the Quran, in Arabic, or not.
    Is it enough for you dear Yeezevee . For me it is. But it would need pages and pages... to explain points that you can find in several academia articles.

    2/ About Mahgraye post : Patricia Crone said :
    Quote
    There is no longer any good reason to doubt that ʿUthmān set up a commission that produced a Qurʾān.

    I do not "believe" ʿUthmān  was a "Companion"  of a "prophet" that he was born in Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem/Kaba, etc. I do not "believe" in a "commission" as well. I believe that someone (a chief) has imposed his own codex. It's seems normal.
    In the time of ʿUthmān,  by the 650's? Nope, for me the chief is Abd al Malik/Hajjaj b.Yusuf (685-705/712) who have work on Quranic texts which could have been  assembled folios, I keep the name "codex" for the official imposition of  Abd al Malik/Hajjaj b.Yusuf of one codex their codex they want to impose against Ibn Masud, which were assembled folios, etc.

    3/ I think the Quranic text is written in papyri towards 550-600. And has nothing to do with Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem/Kaba,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2868 - August 05, 2018, 03:55 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 05, 2018, 03:02 PM
    Altara,


    We can compare the unknown origins of the Arab invaders with the Huns.


    Nope.

     
    Quote
    Also where the Huns exactly came from we don't know. But the Huns didnt bring a literate sophisticated culture with them, the Arabs did. So much that their culture managed to dominate the existing Byzantine and Jewish culture. Indeed very weird that we don't know more where they are coming from.



    We are. Just reflects. (and search on academia...)  (Nevo is wrong...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2869 - August 05, 2018, 04:38 PM
    Altara Answers a question which leads to more questions
    Quote from: Altara on August 05, 2018, 03:49 PM
    1/When I say complex, I mean that 1400 years later nobody knows what is the Quran, in Arabic, or not
    .
    Is it enough for you dear Yeezevee . For me it is. But it would need pages and pages... to explain points that you can find in several academia articles.

    well we will discuss that subject slightly in a different angle

    Quote
    2/ About Mahgraye post : Patricia Crone said :
    Quote
    I do not "believe" ʿUthmān  was a "Companion"  of a "prophet" that he was born in Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem/Kaba, etc. I do not "believe" in a "commission" as well. I believe that someone (a chief) has imposed his own codex.

     

    It's seems normal. In the time of ʿUthmān,  by the 650's? Nope, for me the chief is Abd al Malik/Hajjaj b.Yusuf (685-705/712) who have work on Quranic texts which could have been  assembled folios, I keep the name "codex" for the official imposition of  Abd al Malik/Hajjaj b.Yusuf of one codex their codex they want to impose against Ibn Masud, which were assembled folios, etc.

    3/ I think the Quranic text is written in papyri towards 550-600. And has nothing to do with Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem/Kaba,

    Patricia Crone............

     that is a very important point you made on that wonderful Patricia Crone words dear Altara  and there is little doubt on that Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem/Kaba, gibberish Islamic stories.,  They are nonsense and absolute nonsense.. very little to do with origins of Islam/Quran....

    But i do have other questions from your response... which i will wait  to ask...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2870 - August 05, 2018, 04:45 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 05, 2018, 03:11 PM
    Maybe we should look at it differently: Indeed the story of Mohammed as we know it is very unlikely to take place in the Orient (and it didnt happen that way). Maybe he indeed didnt exist as Mohammed coming from the Hijaz as if from Mars. Maybe the Arabs were just a sect of people already living in the Orient, just as the Mormons were a sect originating in America and created a holy book and an army. Or the Cathars at the time... Only here is 7th C Orient and the sect is something between Christianity/Judaism/Zaroastrocism. Maybe it is not as weird as it looks?

    Maybe  Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2871 - August 05, 2018, 05:50 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 05, 2018, 03:49 PM
    I think the Quranic text is written in papyri towards 550-600.

    Altara - are you proposing an early Quranic text that looks a lot like the text we now have, or something that was substantially altered, edited and added to over the course of the 7th century?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2872 - August 05, 2018, 06:00 PM
    Quote from: Altara on August 05, 2018, 07:50 AM
    I'm referring to Dye "RÉFLEXIONS MÉTHODOLOGIQUES...", 2014, second part on his article (1st is on Cuypers) I make a translation via internet.

    In fact, the dilemma is very clear: it cannot be said that the framework
    the Muslim tradition is right, and at the same time, to take seriously the Koranic text

     

    Then (all) the tradition have to be put aside, dear Guillaume.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2873 - August 05, 2018, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: zeca on August 05, 2018, 05:50 PM
    Altara - are you proposing an early Quranic text that looks a lot like the text we now have, or something that was substantially altered, edited and added to over the course of the 7th century?


    Both. Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2874 - August 05, 2018, 06:09 PM
    A further question - would you see the early Quranic text as one composition, or as a group of texts that were collected and edited together at a later date?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2875 - August 05, 2018, 06:14 PM
    Quote
    A further question - would you see the early Quranic text as one composition, or as a group of texts that were collected and edited together at a later date?


    And you, what you think?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2876 - August 05, 2018, 06:36 PM
    I’d be inclined to see it as a collection of texts edited together.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2877 - August 05, 2018, 06:55 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 05, 2018, 03:02 PM

    We can compare the unknown origins of the Arab invaders with the Huns. Also where the Huns exactly came from we don't know. Indeed very weird that we don't know more where they are coming from.


    I think you need to investigate the following :

    1) when Persia invaded Syria and Egypt in 610's, did they bring allied forces with them, and if yes who ?
    2) If yes to the above, what happened with those forces when a peace agreement was signed between Byzantium and Persia in 628 ?
    3) Why is the first coin with the name Muhammad appearing in Persia ?
    4) Why the first coins claiming the status of Muawiya, Ibn Az Zubair and Abd al Malik as "Amir al muminin"  were all minted in Darabjird in palhavi script?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2878 - August 05, 2018, 07:08 PM
    Marc,

    Quote
    I think you need to investigate the following :


    I hope you don't see this as a questionnaire I must solve. Why don't you give your theory and I 'll tell you what I think of it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2879 - August 05, 2018, 07:14 PM
    Zeca's comment:
    Quote
    I’d be inclined to see it as a collection of texts edited together.


    Software exists to determine authorship. The French connection here undoubtably knows Jean Claude Walter who applied the theory of codes and came to the conclusion there were multiple authors (common sense tells us this, but like this it becomes scientifically proven).

    Jean Claude is an octogenerian doctorandus and quite a character. I think quite a lot of his findings (eg concerning dates of writing) have been proven false by the manuscripts that have been dated. But the concept of his research remains interesting and probably could form an excellent basis for further research. Anyone an opinion on his work?

    http://www.academia.edu/31194818/Analysis_of_the_Koran_Using_Mathematical_Code_Theory
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