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Reply #3420 - August 24, 2018, 06:53 AM

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What is a place?

A location

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The coin. Not the story of "Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya aka the Mahdi"

Still the coincidence does puzzle me.

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The writers of the Gospels had a state?

I knew you would say that but Jesus was not supposed to be the conqueror of an empire and his story also happened at a time when Jerusalem was totally destroyed and the jewish people scattered around.

I wonder if you think Muhammad, Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann, Ali did exist though not as the islamic tradition would portray them in the 9th century or if you think they never existed at all as people.
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Reply #3421 - August 24, 2018, 08:45 AM

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Still the coincidence does puzzle me.

It is not a "coincidence". Saying this is already making a reasoning.
It is because you are convinced by other things that prevent you to realize that, logically, rationally, it seems probable that what you see : Bishapur and Sebeos et al. express that people talking about a "muhammad" and are more contemporary than 9th Muslims.
I do not know by what you are convinced that prevent you to realize that.

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I knew you would say that but Jesus was not supposed to be the conqueror of an empire and his story also happened at a time when Jerusalem was totally destroyed and the jewish people scattered around.

The rabbis of the midrash had a state?
I do not understand you point, clearly. What is having stories have to do with a "state"?
I'm sorry but... Nothing . Your assertion is not historically exact.
It is then personal, and non logical and rational stuff that make you being puzzled. Therefore it's outside science.

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I wonder if you think Muhammad, Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann, Ali did exist though not as the islamic tradition would portray them in the 9th century or if you think they never existed at all as people.

1/ I have already stated about that. The "Muhammad" issue has nothing to do with , Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann, Ali. Why? There is no Sebeos et al. stories where "Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann" replace "Muhammad". That does not exists. There is no coins with "Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann rasul Allah" in 685 or before or after.
I do not understand what prevents you to deduct that. You have new sources, new informations? Or are you convinced by something you do not say, because you have no validation of it ? It is then a personal, affective (and not scientific...) conviction.
Conviction not validated or scientifically deducted have no place in scholarship that's my point...

2/I was wondering (some years ago...) after I had understood that "Muhammad" did not exist (Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem, and elsewhere, etc) if all the stuff was more or less the same: Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann, Ali existed.
I worked on it.
What you think I thought now?
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Reply #3422 - August 24, 2018, 08:48 AM

Muhammad is mentioned as an actual person prior to the minting of the coin in Bishapur. Sources that mention him portray him as an actual historical figure. That is what I said. Mentioning Zamzam and similar things is irrelevant.

Although the question is not aimed at me, the Caliphs are mentioned by Sebeos. For me that constitutes evidence that they existed. Obviously the later reports about are not entirely accurate, but there certainly were figures bearing those names that later became the Caliphs of the Islamic tradition.
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Reply #3423 - August 24, 2018, 08:51 AM

Crone also showed that the Islamic sources - here referring specifically chronology and prosopography - are reliable as far back as AD 661. For me, this additional evidence that the early rulers of the Arab state did exist.
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Reply #3424 - August 24, 2018, 08:54 AM

If I remember correctly, Altara did say that he believes Uthman existed, but not as recounted by the later sources.
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Reply #3425 - August 24, 2018, 08:55 AM

Marc said:

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There might have been different people from whom Ibn Ishaq and others derived the life of Muhammad though. The explanation that his name is a later addition to earlier sources doesn't satisfy me so I still have work to do on this one.

1/ Of course. Reread carefully de Prémare, les fondations... Like for Dhu Qar he gives information but as he is a believer of the narrative(existence of a "prophet", he does not remark things.

2/ The explanation that his name is a later addition to earlier sources doesn't satisfy
Because it is not. "later additions" ... See my precedent post.
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Reply #3426 - August 24, 2018, 10:29 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1032926112203108352
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In "Qur'ans of the Umayyads", François Déroche makes multiple references to the idea that the use of "Scriptio Continua" is typical for early Qurans and especially typical of Qurans in the old Hijazi style. Let's challenge that myth…

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Reply #3427 - August 24, 2018, 10:46 AM

Interview with George Archer on ‘A Place Between Two Places: The Qur’ānic Barzakh’

https://earlyislamicbooks.wordpress.com/georgearcherinterview/

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Reply #3428 - August 24, 2018, 10:50 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/842782694014668803
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One of the earliest surviving fragments of Arabic historical writing. Papyrus, Palestine; 8th century?

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Reply #3429 - August 24, 2018, 11:00 AM

Quote from: Altara on August 24, 2018, 08:45 AM
It is not a "coincidence". Saying this is already making a reasoning.

I do not know by what you are convinced that prevent you to realize that.

OK.
Non muslim sources (potentially driving from muslim sources) : Mokhtar the prophet rebels in the east, coin minted in 684 in Bishapur mentionning Muhammad rassoul Allah, coinage reform by Abd al Malik after his victory over Ibn al Zubair and the Muhammad motto appear on coins in the west

Muslim sources : Mokhtar rebels in the east against the Umayyads to avenge the martyr of Husein and he pledges allegiance to Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya and see him as the Mahdi ; he frees alHanifiyya from Ibn al Zubair who wanted to rally him behind his cause ; later, Ibn al Hanifiyya would pledge allegiance to Abd al Malik and the first abbasid caliph will seek allegiance from the offspring of ibn al Hanifiyya

Potential assumption : the Muhammad on the Bishapur coin might represent this ibn al Hanifiyya the Mahdi and by minting this coin Ibn al Zubair just tried to rally people supporting the Mahdi behind him but he failed and was defeated by Abd al Malik who later took over the Muhammad motto to establish his authority in the east.

We know, from Koren/Nevo mentionning Bashear, that some events of the life of Ibn al Haniffiya were back projected into the life of Muhammad.

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It is because you are convinced by other things that prevent you to realize that, logically, rationally, it seems probable that what you see : Bishapur and Sebeos et al. express that people talking about a "muhammad" and are more contemporary than 9th Muslims.

I am not sure if you imply here that Sebeos, the Bishapur coin discuss a Muhammad living end of the 7th century rather than beginning/middle of the 7th century. Your comments are not clear to me.

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The rabbis of the midrash had a state?
I do not understand you point, clearly. What is having stories have to do with a "state"?

If you are making up stories, it is easier to do so by forging a distant past (rabbis ) or talking about someone having lived in a region now totally devastated and whose habitants have been scattered away (Jesus). With Muhammad, if you accept having stories about him circulating as early as mid/end of the 7th century and portraying him as the leader of recent invasions, it seems to me that you need to have the power of a strong state to force that story down to all the people who lived through those conquests and might still be around. The Sunnis/Shias war might have to do with that history re-writing.

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1/ I have already stated about that. The "Muhammad" issue has nothing to do with , Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann, Ali. Why? There is no Sebeos et al. stories where "Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann" replace "Muhammad". That does not exists. There is no coins with "Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann rasul Allah" in 685 or before or after.

I did look at proof of the existence of Abou Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and :

- they are mentionned on lists of arab kings showing up in different non muslim chronicles though they might be late (Jacob of Edessa, Sebeos, Michael the Syrian, Theophanes, etc,etc),
- we can question the existence of Abu Bakr who doesn't show up in one muslim source discussing calipgs after Muhammad (See Crone/Hinds God's Caliph),
- Ali might be the king that Muawiya fought as described in non muslim sources but we could question some corruption by muslim sources here,
- the Zuhayr writing mention Umar (but we have no idea about Umar's title from the writing, ) and his murder in the year 24. R. Kerr doesn't think this writing is genuine, other scholars do,
- one writing near Tayma mention the murder of Uthman (but yet the writing doesn't say nothing about his title) and seems contemporary to that event

So, in summary, proof is scarce and not convincing. They existed as local tribe leaders and their lives were used to build the islam narrative of the companions of the prophet (my current thought). You can also wonder if the Amr mentionned in Sebeos as the conqueror of Syria and Egypt is not simply Amr ibn al As instead of Umar.

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2/I was wondering (some years ago...) after I had understood that "Muhammad" did not exist (Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem, and elsewhere, etc) if all the stuff was more or less the same: Umar, Abu Bakr, Uthmann, Ali existed.
I worked on it.
What you think I thought now?

like I said, I don't know and you are ambiguous on the issue of their existence as mere people (we agree that they never existed as portrayed by islamic tradition narratives).
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Reply #3430 - August 24, 2018, 12:51 PM

Quote from: Marc S on August 24, 2018, 11:00 AM
OK.
Non muslim sources (potentially driving from muslim sources) : Mokhtar the prophet rebels in the east, coin minted in 684 in Bishapur mentionning Muhammad rassoul Allah, coinage reform by Abd al Malik after his victory over Ibn al Zubair and the Muhammad motto appear on coins in the west

SOURCE LINK PLEASE

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Muslim sources : Mokhtar rebels in the east against the Umayyads to avenge the martyr of Husein and he pledges allegiance to Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya and see him as the Mahdi ; he frees alHanifiyya from Ibn al Zubair who wanted to rally him behind his cause ; later, Ibn al Hanifiyya would pledge allegiance to Abd al Malik and the first abbasid caliph will seek allegiance from the offspring of ibn al Hanifiyya

source link please.. It is vital to give sources for such claims

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Potential assumption : the Muhammad on the Bishapur coin might represent this ibn al Hanifiyya the Mahdi and by minting this coin Ibn al Zubair just tried to rally people supporting the Mahdi behind him but he failed and was defeated by Abd al Malik who later took over the Muhammad motto to establish his authority in the east.

I am sure you know where that town Bishapur was located..... was it in the present Arabian desert ??

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We know, from Koren/Nevo mentionning Bashear, that some events of the life of Ibn al Haniffiya were back projected into the life of Muhammad.

I am not sure if you imply here that Sebeos, the Bishapur coin discuss a Muhammad living end of the 7th century rather than beginning/middle of the 7th century. Your comments are not clear to me.

THERE WERE MANY MUHAMMADS LIVING IN THE END OF 7th century

well for rest I will get back dear MarkS..

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Reply #3431 - August 24, 2018, 03:34 PM

Quote from: zeca on August 24, 2018, 10:29 AM
Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1032926112203108352

Déroche is not an epigraphist nor a palaeographist. He was trained in Classics (Latin/Greek), learned Ethiopian and Arabic and supervised the organisation of the Arabic manuscripts in Paris.
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Reply #3432 - August 24, 2018, 06:54 PM

Quote from: Marc S on August 24, 2018, 11:00 AM
OK.
Non Muslim sources (potentially driving from muslim sources) : Mokhtar the prophet rebels in the east, coin minted in 684 in Bishapur mentioning Muhammad rassoul Allah, coinage reform by Abd al Malik after his victory over Ibn al Zubair and the Muhammad motto appear on coins in the west

yes, its the sources that all know.

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Muslim sources : Mokhtar rebels in the east against the Umayyads to avenge the martyr of Husein and he pledges allegiance to Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya and see him as the Mahdi ; he frees al Hanifiyya from Ibn al Zubair who wanted to rally him behind his cause ; later, Ibn al Hanifiyya would pledge allegiance to Abd al Malik and the first abbasid caliph will seek allegiance from the offspring of ibn al Hanifiyya

Internals Arab stuff.
All of this is 9th c., recounted in the frame of : Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem. I do not buy it.
And Abassid were not Shii... even if they used that Iraqi stuff to fight the Syrians.
At that moment, I do not see any relation with what I have expressed. But... Keep on...

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Potential assumption : the Muhammad on the Bishapur coin might represent this ibn al Hanifiyya the Mahdi and by minting this coin Ibn al Zubair just tried to rally people supporting the Mahdi behind him but he failed and was defeated by Abd al Malik who later took over the Muhammad motto to establish his authority in the east.

1/But the "Mahdi" is a proto Shii thing. Zubayr would have been a supporter of Ali? Not to my knowledge. And support Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya, the son of Ali ? It seems only conjectures.

2/Abd al Malik took over the Muhammad motto to establish his authority in the east, from Zubayr, and nobody else (nor "Mahdi", Mokhtar, Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya) whose the names are not in the Bishapur coin.
Or Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya would be the writer of the Quran, then? and that Bishapur coin would be Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya? ( I try to understand...) Do you have source with allusion where Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya is call rasul Allah? Why later Shii do not attest of that? That he was the Prophet? It seems curious. Then Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya how is he dying? Allies with the Umayyad? That would be the reason why Shii does not speak of him?
Very very complicated with conjectures about many things Marc...

You do not trust Muslims sources about Mecca/Zem Zem/"prophet", but you trust them (ibn al Hanifiyya the Mahdi, Ali etc) to build your own reasoning, entering and contesting the internals affairs recounted at length by the Muslim narrative. Why not.

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We know, from Koren/Nevo mentionning Bashear, that some events of the life of Ibn al Haniffiya were back projected into the life of Muhammad.

Ok I get it.
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I am not sure if you imply here that Sebeos, the Bishapur coin discuss a Muhammad living end of the 7th century rather than beginning/middle of the 7th century. Your comments are not clear to me.

1/ The "Muhammad" of Sebeos and the Bishapur coin has not existed for me since I consider that these are the "Muhammad" of the Quran whose the texts were circulating since many times in Iraq who was considered by the Arabic leaders as what is comprehended now of him : a person in contact with God. Those Arabs leaders were spreading this story to which they believe, drawn from the Quranic texts themselves, . That is why Sebeos and Bishapur. But is Sebeos early? It looks like mid 9th c. for me, like Theophane. It seems curious that we do not have the same story spread in the 7th c. by many authors. And as we know it, in fact, we do not know, if Sebeos was written in the 7th c or after. That's a problem.
2/Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya is a son of Ali. From where does come from his name? From Ali. From where Ali got this name? He invented it?

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If you are making up stories, it is easier to do so by forging a distant past (rabbis ) or talking about someone having lived in a region now totally devastated and whose habitants have been scattered away (Jesus). With Muhammad, if you accept having stories about him circulating as early as mid/end of the 7th century and portraying him as the leader of recent invasions, it seems to me that you need to have the power of a strong state to force that story down to all the people who lived through those conquests and might still be around. The Sunnis/Shias war might have to do with that history re-writing.

For me, no need of a "state" to spread stories, it is a personal claim of yours with no scientific ground. It has no scholarship value.
For me Sunni/Shia question is simple : who will be in charge in the 650's of both the West and the East? Before that time Muawiya was in charge in the West by Yarmuk(636) an his own will. When the leader of the East die (?) in the 650, Muawiya try to take Iraq against Ali.

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I did look at proof of the existence of Abou Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and :

- they are mentionned on lists of arab kings showing up in different non muslim chronicles though they might be late (Jacob of Edessa, Sebeos, Michael the Syrian, Theophanes, etc,etc),
- we can question the existence of Abu Bakr who doesn't show up in one muslim source discussing calipgs after Muhammad (See Crone/Hinds God's Caliph),
- Ali might be the king that Muawiya fought as described in non muslim sources but we could question some corruption by muslim sources here,
- the Zuhayr writing mention Umar (but we have no idea about Umar's title from the writing, ) and his murder in the year 24. R. Kerr doesn't think this writing is genuine, other scholars do,
- one writing near Tayma mention the murder of Uthman (but yet the writing doesn't say nothing about his title) and seems contemporary to that event

Ok I know these sources.

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So, in summary, proof is scarce and not convincing. They existed as local tribe leaders and their lives were used to build the islam narrative of the companions of the prophet (my current thought). You can also wonder if the Amr mentionned in Sebeos as the conqueror of Syria and Egypt is not simply Amr ibn al As instead of Umar.

1/ Yes
2/ Of course it could be Amr ibn al As, it is probable.

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like I said, I don't know and you are ambiguous on the issue of their existence as mere people (we agree that they never existed as portrayed by islamic tradition narratives).

I'm not ambiguous, I was asking you what you thought I thought.
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Reply #3433 - August 24, 2018, 10:15 PM

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Internals Arab stuff.
All of this is 9th c., recounted in the frame of : Mecca/Medina/Zem-Zem. I do not buy it.
Zubayr would have been a supporter of Ali? Not to my knowledge. And support Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya, the son of Ali ?
You do not trust Muslims sources about Mecca/Zem Zem/"prophet", but you trust them (ibn al Hanifiyya the Mahdi, Ali etc) to build your own reasoning

You are saying things I didn't say. I don't trust the muslim narratives but we can agree that it bear some kind of truth (Decline and Fall of the Sassanian empire cross check them with sassanid and armenian sources and they come out ok once stripped of the islamic Mecca/Medina/prophet).

In other words, I have an assumption that there was a religious movement at that time where the Muhammad was viewed as the Mahdi (= paraclet ). I don't care about the Ali lineage/Hussein/Karbala/Mecca/Zem Zem stuff. I just notice his name is Muhammad, he pledges alliance to Abd al Malik in 692 after the defeat of ibn Az Zubayr, in 696 we have coins from Abd al Malik with the Muhammad motto on them ; he is also buried in the Prophet mosk in Medina just like Muhammad.

The narrative might not describe events as they happened in details but I like to think the narrative retained the core story.

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Very very complicated with conjectures about many things Marc...

I know but we all agree the truth was erased/altered/hidden/distorted so you need to make assumptions and work on them until you are either satisfied or not. I am doing that now but, in a few months, I might find out it was a dead end. Issue is I haven't seen as of today any satisfatory explanation for the sudden appearance of the Muhammed motto on coins in Bishapur.

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I consider that these are the "Muhammad" of the Quran whose the texts were circulating since many times in Iraq who was considered by the Arabic leaders as what is comprehended now of him : a person in contact with God. Those Arabs leaders were spreading this story to which they believe, drawn from the Quranic texts themselves

I see errors/incoherence in what you are saying here :

1) The Quran never speaks of Muhammad; you are here buying into the islamic narrative
2) Islam forced the Muhammad narrative into the Quran but strip it and the Quran is still coherent, even more coherent ; the underlying texts included in the Quran were written centuries before the existence of the alleged prophet so the Quran doesn't need Muhammad
3) How could those arab leaders believe a story that is made from the ground up unless there was an actual preacher/prophet/war leader claiming to spread God's word leading them ; I thought you didn't believe that Muhammad existed

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For me, no need of a "state" to spread stories,

Muhammad sira, Tabari history, etc,etc were all written under the abbasids. Before, there was nothing if we look for hard evidence.
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Reply #3434 - August 24, 2018, 10:20 PM

Huh? Is this debate thread or commentary on contemporary Scholarship.?

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #3435 - August 24, 2018, 10:30 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 24, 2018, 12:51 PM
SOURCE LINK PLEASE
source link please.. It is vital to give sources for such claims

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_al-Hanafiyyah
You also have Tabari vol XX & XXI
https://archive.org/details/TabariEnglish

For non muslim sources, I don't remember if it is in the chronicle of Theophanes or in Michael the Syrian

https://archive.org/stream/ChronicleOfMichaelTheGreatPatriarchOfTheSyrians/Chronicle_Michael_Syrian_djvu.txt
https://archive.org/details/TheChronicleOfTheophanesTrans.ByHarryTurtledove1982

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I am sure you know where that town Bishapur was located..... was it in the present Arabian desert ??

No Bishapur is in current Iran, nothing to do with present arabian desert to my knowledge.

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THERE WERE MANY MUHAMMADS LIVING IN THE END OF 7th century

This is not the first time you are saying so, this is my turn, we need sources of such claims, and I want them NOW
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Reply #3436 - August 25, 2018, 08:39 AM

Quote from: Marc S on August 24, 2018, 10:30 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_al-Hanafiyyah
You also have Tabari vol XX & XXI
https://archive.org/details/TabariEnglish

For non muslim sources, I don't remember if it is in the chronicle of Theophanes or in Michael the Syrian

https://archive.org/stream/ChronicleOfMichaelTheGreatPatriarchOfTheSyrians/Chronicle_Michael_Syrian_djvu.txt
https://archive.org/details/TheChronicleOfTheophanesTrans.ByHarryTurtledove1982

No Bishapur is in current Iran, nothing to do with present arabian desert to my knowledge.

that i will respond but on

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This is not the first time you are saying so, this is my turn, we need sources of such claims, and I want them NOW

Q1. what do you consider as SOURCE for early Islamic history??

and on Muhammad .. the first preacher off Islam
And MuhammadS ........... Prophets of Islamic faith heads

I often answer and I also question my own answers dear Marc S but answer me these simple questions to you

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1, did you read Quran? and what does it say on "Muhammad..." and how many different Muhammd personalities can we find in it?

2. did you read hadith? how many of those hadith books did you read? what does it say on "Muhammad..." and how many different Muhammd personalities can we find in it?

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Reply #3437 - August 25, 2018, 10:36 AM

Quote from: Marc S on August 24, 2018, 10:15 PM
You are saying things I didn't say. I don't trust the muslim narratives but we can agree that it bear some kind of truth (Decline and Fall of the Sassanian empire cross check them with sassanid and armenian sources and they come out ok once stripped of the islamic Mecca/Medina/prophet).

I've tried to understand the potential assumption of yours which you repeat in other word here :

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Potential assumption : the Muhammad on the Bishapur coin might represent this Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya.
In other words, I have an assumption that there was a religious movement at that time where the Muhammad was viewed as the Mahdi (= paraclet ).

1/Where comes from the word "muhammad" and the word " Hanifiyya" used by the 9th c. sources to describe this guy?
I just want your explication of the origin of the two words. What can you provide as source? If you have no source it is then conjecture and your own assumption with no scholarship value. What is interesting me is "scholarship value" Marc. When you use Decline and Fall of the Sassanian Empire (a must read for all...)do you use a conjecture? Nope. All what she says is backed up.
When you say "Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya" is the Bishapur coin (Muhammad rasul Allah). Do you have other source about "Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya"outside of the 9th c. ones? Epigraphic, archaeologic, scribal source ?
Nope.
When you say "Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya" is the Bishapur coin. Ok , why not? Therefore where this guy is named elsewhere as "rasul Allah"? Epigraphic, archaeologic, scribal source ?
Nowhere, there is nothing.
I do not buy then the existence of this guy as "rasul Allah". It's probably not the "rasul Allah" on the Bishapur coin.
That is the scholarly method.
But he is said the son of Ali, right? Who is Ali? The amir of al Hira in external sources (check de Prémare chap 13)
What can we do of this? Not much in my view.

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I don't trust the muslim narratives but we can agree that it bear some kind of truth

I'm not agree. All have to be checked like I just did.
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Muhammad Ibn al Hanifiyya born in 633 died in 700 pledging alliance to Abd al Malik in 692 after the defeat of ibn Az Zubayr.

Why not? He is "rasul Allah" on Bishapur coin? I do not think so (cf. precedent explication.)

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in 696 we have coins from Abd al Malik with the Muhammad motto on them ; he is also buried in the Prophet mosk in Medina just like Muhammad

The motto is made by Zubayr. Abd al Malik defeats him and take it.
If "Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya" is Ali's son, then Ali has sons taken by the Umayyads ("Muhammad ibn al Hanifiyya") and the Shii (Husayn, etc) That's all I see. Because Ali is an important figure, each side take sons of him in the 9th c.

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The narrative might not describe events as they happened in details but I like to think the narrative retained the core story.

For me, nope. Moreover, with this "core story" you doing conjectures with no sources to back up. I'm sorry but...

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I know but we all agree the truth was erased/altered/hidden/distorted so you need to make assumptions and work on them until you are either satisfied or not. I am doing that now but, in a few months, I might find out it was a dead end. Issue is I haven't seen as of today any satisfatory explanation for the sudden appearance of the Muhammed motto on coins in Bishapur.

1/Nope. I do not agree on this. All must be check. If you make assumptions, why not. But they have to be backed up. It is not possible (for me...) to make assumptions without back up. That lead always to dead end. No need to wait months to realize that.
2/ " I haven't seen as of today any satisfatory explanation" : Because you are convinced by "postulates" that you believe "true" that is why you have no "satisfatory explanation". Yes, that does not work. But I think that it is those "postulates" which are inexacts. You have to revise them. "Postulates" like : " but I like to think the narrative retained the core story. " Or your postulates on the Quran.Nope. All must be check even your"postulates" on the Quran . What you're not doing. I think that you have to revise them all.

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I see errors/incoherence in what you are saying here :

Ok, why not. Let's examine them.

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1) The Quran never speaks of Muhammad; you are here buying into the islamic narrative

Unless you consider the word "muhammad" as a later interpolation the Quran write it 4 times.

Quote
2) Islam forced the Muhammad narrative into the Quran but strip it and the Quran is still coherent, even more coherent ; the underlying texts included in the Quran were written centuries before the existence of the alleged prophet so the Quran doesn't need Muhammad

Nope (for me...) it is the contrary : the Muhammad narrative is taken and created from the Quran. There is no invention of a narrative and then forcing it into the Quran.
Quote
3) How could those arab leaders believe a story that is made from the ground up unless there was an actual preacher/prophet/war leader claiming to spread God's word leading them ; I thought you didn't believe that Muhammad existed

The story is made by literati in the beginning of the 7th who advices the (Iraqi) leaders from texts which were circulating as words giving to an Arab by God. God talk to who in the Quran? To Superman? It was then deducted by the Arabs literati that the word "muhammad" was this Arab. Quran where they can follow his "prophetical" adventures.

Quote
Muhammad sira, Tabari history, etc,etc were all written under the abbasids. Before, there was nothing if we look for hard evidence.

Nope. Check de Prémare.
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Reply #3438 - August 25, 2018, 02:27 PM

Quote
I don't trust the muslim narratives but we can agree that it bear some kind of truth (Decline and Fall of the Sassanian empire cross check them with sassanid and armenian sources and they come out ok once stripped of the islamic Mecca/Medina/prophet).

Crone did the very same thing. She cross checked the Islamic sources with contemporary ones, and demonstrated that when it comes to chronology and prosopography, the Islamic sources are reliable as far back as AD 661.
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Reply #3439 - August 25, 2018, 03:49 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 23, 2018, 08:14 PM

Sebeos That Armenian historian is back in action but I don't see that word in Marc S's post dear Altara.,

May be that Mhmt of Marc S's post is from different historian of that time .. So I wonder when did this "Mhmt" (((sounds like m&m) )) became Prophet Muhammad??

It's seems to me curious that the Sebeos story of Mhmt (supposed to have written this stories of Mhmt in the 7th) are not known by the other writers of the 7th c. who never recounts that. So much so that I think it's much later, middle 8th c and corresponds to what we see of Christian authors of this time (which draw themselves from the Muslim narrative.)
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Reply #3440 - August 25, 2018, 05:07 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 03:49 PM
It's seems to me curious that the Sebeos story of Mhmt (supposed to have written this stories of Mhmt in the 7th) are not known by the other writers of the 7th c. who never recounts that. So much so that I think it's much later, middle 8th c and corresponds to what we see of Christian authors of this time (which draw themselves from the Muslim narrative.)

well you must write a proper peer reviewed article on that "Sebeos story of Mhmt" to put whole thing to rest .. So much hype and nonsense stories on early Islam...

Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 10:36 AM

...Nope (for me...) it is the contrary... : the Muhammad narrative is taken and created from the Quran. There is no invention of a narrative and then forcing it into the Quran.

I wonder who said these words?? "the Muhammad narrative is taken and created from the Quran"

Marc S or Altara?? whoever but that is interesting concept ..

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Reply #3441 - August 25, 2018, 06:28 PM

It's seems to me curious that the Sebeos story of Mhmt (supposed to have written this stories of Mhmt in the 7th) are not known by the other writers of the 7th c. who never recounts that. So much so that I think it's much later, middle 8th c and corresponds to what we see of Christian authors of this time (which draw themselves from the Muslim narrative.)

Quote
well you must write a proper peer reviewed article on that "Sebeos story of Mhmt" to put whole thing to rest .. So much hype and nonsense stories on early Islam...

Dear yeezevee,

All the scholars of Early Islam, Quranic studies, etc. are aware of that. If not it means they are not competent.
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Reply #3442 - August 25, 2018, 06:30 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 25, 2018, 05:07 PM
well you must write a proper peer reviewed article on that "Sebeos story of Mhmt" to put whole thing to rest .. So much hype and nonsense stories on early Islam...

I wonder who said these words?? "the Muhammad narrative is taken and created from the Quran"

Marc S or Altara?? whoever but that is interesting concept ..

Me.
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Reply #3443 - August 25, 2018, 07:53 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 06:28 PM

Dear yeezevee,

All the scholars of Early Islam, Quranic studies, etc. are aware of that. If not it means they are not competent.

that Altara says on his own post
Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 06:28 PM
It's seems to me curious that the Sebeos story of Mhmt (supposed to have written this stories of Mhmt in the 7th) are not known by the other writers of the 7th c. who never recounts that. So much so that I think it's much later, middle 8th c and corresponds to what we see of Christian authors of this time (which draw themselves from the Muslim narrative.)

So dear Altara to this list of Islamic Scholars that Mahgraye gave it to me in one of his posts
Quote
Here are some names of prominent scholars in the field of Islamic Studies who have published on the Koran, Hadith, etc. They belong to different methodological camps.

Angelika Neuwirth, Nicolai Sinai, Michael Marx, Gregor Schoeler, Harald Motzki, Andreas Görke, Chase F. Robinson, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, Gerald R. Hawting, John Wansbrough, Rudolph Sellheim, Sean Anthony, Christopher Melchert, Herbert Berg, Johann Fück, Nabia Abbot, Robert Hoyland, Jonathan Brockopp, Shahab Ahmed, Stephen Shoemaker, Fred Donner, Gabriel Said Reynolds, Jan van Reeth, Holger Zolondek, Gautier A. H. Juynboll, Ignaz Goldziher, Joseph Schacht, Henri Lammens, Andrew Rippin, Ernst Renan, Norman Calder, Iftikhar Zaman, Arthur Jeffery, Lawrence Conrad, Aloys Sprenger, Marco Schöller, Tilman Nagel, Francis Peters, Stephen Humphreys, Behnam Sadeghi, James Montgomery, Uri Bergmann, Jonathan Brown, Ian Morris, Stefan Heidemann, Sebastian Günther, Carlos A. Segovia, Meir Kister, Uri Rubin, Montgomery Watt, Julius Wellhausen, M. M. Azami, Alfred Guillaume, Guillaume Dye, A. J. Arberry, Michael Lecker, Scott Lucas, François de Bois, Jan Retsö, Omar Hamdan, William Muir, Amidu Olalekan Sanni, James Robson, Marston Speight, Kevin Reinhart, Eerik Dickinson, David Cook, Devin Stewart, Günter Lüling, John Burton, Peter Stein, George Makdisi, Wael Hallaq, Noel Coulson, Sebastian Günther, Stefan Leder, Talal Maloush, Stefan Wild, Thomas Bauer, David Margoliouth, M. C. Lyon, Leone Caetani, David Powers, Maher Jarrar, Mohammed Bamyeh, Sadun Mahmud Al-Samuk, Maxime Rodinson, Emran El-Badawi, Hossein Modarressi, Daniel Madigan, Paul Casanova, Alphonse Mingana, Lyall Armstrong, Intisar Rabb, Asma Sayeed, Najam Haider, Yasin Dutton, Amikam Elad, Sydney Griffith, Etan Kohlberg, Ella Landau-Tasseron, Hellmut Ritter, Pavel Pavlovitch, James Bellamy, Hans-Casper Graf von Bothmer, François Déroche, Adis Duderija, Asma Hilali, Hartwig Hirschfeld, Shady Hekmat Nasser, Johannes van Oort, Catherine Pennacchio, Mustafa Shah, W. St. Clair Tisdall, Estelle Whelan, Solehah binti Yaacob, Mohsen Goudarzi, Kamaruddin Amin, Carl Brockelmann, Mohammed Fadel, Sulaiman Jarallah, Ilkka Lindstedt, Ulrike Mitter, Halit Ozkan, Irene Schneider, A. J. Wensinck, Petra Sijpesteijin, J. M. B. Jones, Albrecht Noth, J. H. Kramers, Abraham Geiger, Theodor Nöldeke, Nicolet Boekhoff-van der Voort, Karl Vilhelm Zetterstéen, Christopher Toll, Tord Olsson, Jane Dammen McAuliffe, William A. Graham, Navid Kermani, Fred Leemhuis, Naṣr Abū Zayd, Camilla Adang, ʿAlī b. Ibrāhīm al-Ghabbān, Nebil Ahmed Husayn, Marijin van Putten, Ahmad Al-Jallad, Michael Bonner, Jonathan Owens, Martin F. J. Baasten, Régis Blachère, Richard Bell, Flügel, David Hollenberg, Seth A. Rosenthal, Miklos Muranyi, Mahdi ‘May’ Shaddel, Harald Suermann, Han J. W. Drijvers, Gerrit J. Reinink, Pieter W. van der Horst, Suliman Bashear, Edmund Beck, Gotthelf Bergsträsser, Gerhard Böwering, David Cook, Martin Hinds, Gilbert Dagron, Vincent Déroche, Alfred-Louis de Prémare, Abd al-Aziz Duri, Reuven Firestone, Oleg Grabar, Marshall G. S. Hodgson, Raif Georges Khoury, Wilferd Madelung, Michael G. Morony, Suleiman Ali Mourad, Neal Robinson, Muḥammad Zubayr Ṣiddīqī, Rizwi S. Faizer, Saleh Said Agha, Hinrich Biesterfeldt, Wadad Kadi, Judith Herrin, Joseph Witztum, Hannah Cotton, Guy G. Stroumsa, Karen Bauer, David M. Eisenberg, Deborah G. Tor, Matthew S. Gordon, Kevin van Bladel, Maria Mavroudi, Fritz W. Zimmermann, Michael Cooperson, Margaret Larkin, Khaled El-Rouayheb, Chris Wickham, David J. Wasserstein, David Abulafia, Adam Silverstein, Bella Tendler Krieger, Werner Diem, Geoffrey Khan, Marie Legendre, Lucian Reinfandt, Irfan Shahid, Khalid Younes, Nancy Khalek, Maribel Fierro, Najam Haider, Adam Sabra, Jane Hathaway, Samer Traboulsi, Nurit Tsafrir, Nimrod Hurvitz, Justin Stearns, Asad Q. Ahmed, Leor Halevi, Carol Bakhos, Iwona Gajda, Norman Calder, Asma Sayeed, Hassan F. Ansari, Baber Johansen, Intisar A. Rabb, Khaled Abou El Fadl, Edmund Beck, M. M. Bravemann, Harris Birkeland, Toshihiko Izutsu, Averil Cameron, Garth Fowden, Frank Trombley, J. H. W. Liebeschuetz, Christian Decorbet, Fergus Millar, Robert Schick, J. F. Haldon, Hartmut Bobzin, Mikhail D. Bukharin, Islam Dayeh, Kirill Dmitriev, Barbara Finster, Agnes Imhof, Ernst Axel Knauf, Reimund Leicht, Norbert Nebes, Jan Retsö, Nora K. Schmid, Tilman Seidensticker, Peter Stein, Isabel Toral-Niehoff, Sergio Noja Noseda, Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Christoph Luxenburg, Markus Gross, Volker Popp, Hans Jansen, Muhammad Sven Kalisch, Yehuda Nevo, Judith Koren, Robert M. Kerr, Raymond Dequin, Uwe Friedrich Schmidt, Peter von Sivers, Christopher Plato, Gilles Courtieu, Johannes Thomas, Genevieve Gobillot, Mohammad Lamsiah, Jean-Jacques Walter, Gerd-Rüdiger Puin, Ibn Warraq, Norbert G. Pressburg, Robert Spencer, Hans-Jörg Döhla, Alba Fedeli, Marcin Grodzki, Geneviève Gobillot, Markus Stor, Claude Gilliot, Christoph Heger, Gilles Courtieu, Manfred S. Kropp, Robert M. Kerr, Pierre Larcher, Thomas Milo, Sergio Noja Noseda, Alfred-Louis de Prémare, Elisabeth Puin, Filippo Ranieri, Piotr O. Scholz, Mondher SFAR, Kieth Liten, Johannes Thomas, Frank Van Reeth, Munther Younes, Mohammad Lamsiah, Édouard-Marie Gallez, Éléonore Cellard, Tayyar Altıkulaç, John Wansbrough, Francisco del Río Sánchez, Simon C. Mimouni, Abdul-Massih Saadi, Joseph Azzi, Mālik Muslimānī, Y. Durra al-Ḥaddād, Guy Stroumsa, Holger Zellentin, Jens Scheiner, Michael E. Pregill, Peter Webb, etc.

plus on that etc. you and he added more names..

Now question to you is.,

"NONE OF THOSE GUYS COULD INVESTIGATE THIS SEBEOS ISLAMIC HISTORY ..,.and say that this guy Seboes Islamic story actually was from middle of8th century Christian priest/s story ?? ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #3444 - August 25, 2018, 08:07 PM

Thank you....

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #3445 - August 25, 2018, 08:22 PM

Altara says "Me" to me ....
Quote
Quote from: yeezevee on August 25, 2018, 05:07 PM
...............I wonder who said these words?? "the Muhammad narrative is taken and created from the Quran"

Marc S or Altara?? whoever but that is interesting concept ..

Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 06:30 PM
Me.

Oh!.. that "me" is going to cost you....... makes me to ask questions dear Altara...

So on those words ......... "the Muhammad narrative is taken and created from the Quran"....

What narrative can we write "Muhammad".. prophet of Islam ....from Quran? .. let me start on that ...
Quote
Muhammad Narative from Quran....

1). Muhammad was a Messenger of Allah...
2). Muhammad was a Prophet....
3). Muhammad was a unlettered unlearned uneducated Prophet of Allah.....

4-100

Now dear Altara please fill those 4 to 100 ...few worded statements for the narrative on Muhammad from Quran...

with best
yeezevee

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Reply #3446 - August 25, 2018, 08:35 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 10:36 AM
I've tried to understand the potential assumption of yours which you repeat in other word here :

1/Where comes from the word "muhammad" and the word " Hanifiyya" used by the 9th c. sources to describe this guy?

Hanifiyya has 2 origins : 1) his mother was from the Hanifi tribe ; 2) Hanifiyya is also supposed to be a synonym of "pure"monotheism and appear in the Quran in relation with Abraham.

Regarding Muhammad, I am surprised by your question but I would say that this is something of which people have been conjecturing for centuries (about the meaning of the name in the first place).

Quote
I just want your explication of the origin of the two words. What can you provide as source? If you have no source it is then conjecture and your own assumption with no scholarship value.

At this stage, it is a conjecture from my part. I know and admit it and have no issue with it and I am working on it.

However, in 1 or 2 non muslim chronicles, Muhammad is described as a guide. That is what was the Mahdi in the first place before being ascribed the function of redeemer/savior.

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The motto is made by Zubayr. Abd al Malik defeats him and take it.

We know Zubayr claims it but we don't know where it comes from.

Quote
2/ " I haven't seen as of today any satisfatory explanation" : Because you are convinced by "postulates" that you believe "true" that is why you have no "satisfatory explanation".

It is very easy : Islam says it was born in Arabia but islam also tell us that most of his history did happen in Persia, and this is backup by external sources though some of them are just muslim sources driven. Then it is not difficult to postulate that we muust look east for the early history of islam.

The same rationale goes from the Muhammad motto on the Bishapur coin. Why is it born in the east ? Why, if that was so important and it was something that already existed in the early 7th century, Muawiya doesn't use it on the coins he mint in the east ?

I have seen no satisfactory reply to that, sorry, so I am looking.

Quote
Unless you consider the word "muhammad" as a later interpolation the Quran write it 4 times.

Sorry but Muhammad is not mentionned in the Quran. That thinking is the islamic narrative but not what the text says. The 4 mentions of Muhammad could be interpolation but they don't tell us nothing about who or what is this Muhammad.

Quote
Nope (for me...) it is the contrary : the Muhammad narrative is taken and created from the Quran. There is no invention of a narrative and then forcing it into the Quran.

Sorry for the confusion ; we say the same thing ; Muhammad narrative is forced into the Quran in the sense that it is supposed to rely on Quran verses. But the text doesn't say so if you read it without preconception of the muslim exegisis. The people who wrote Muhammad's history needed to link him to the Quran and also to explain some verses that hrey didn't understand at all because they weren't involved in the birth of the Quran but inherited it.

Quote
The story is made by literati in the beginning of the 7th who advices the (Iraqi) leaders from texts which were circulating as words giving to an Arab by God. God talk to who in the Quran? To Superman? It was then deducted by the Arabs literati that the word "muhammad" was this Arab. Quran where they can follow his "prophetical" adventures.

So, if I understand what you are saying, some scribes did spread texts that they had no idea where they come from and thought that they came from a prophet called Muhammad whom they knew nothing about.

Sorry, if this is what you meant, it doesn't make any sense and I wonder how you could come up to that.

Quote
Nope. Check de Prémare.

If you are referring to isnads going back to Zuhri or previous ahadith keepers, peopel telling you this were writing under the Abassids. If you are referring to someothing else, please give an example.
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Reply #3447 - August 25, 2018, 08:56 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on August 25, 2018, 08:39 AM
that i will respond but on

Q1. what do you consider as SOURCE for early Islamic history??

No I want sources of your claims, or your rationale.

Quote
and on Muhammad .. the first preacher off Islam
And MuhammadS ........... Prophets of Islamic faith heads

I often answer and I also question my own answers dear Marc S but answer me these simple questions to you
1, did you read Quran? and what does it say on "Muhammad..." and how many different Muhammd personalities can we find in it?

2. did you read hadith? how many of those hadith books did you read? what does it say on "Muhammad..." and how many different Muhammd personalities can we find in it?

1) The Quran doesn't speak about Muhammad. The 4 mentions of him are either later addition or refer to someone else already in the Quran.

2) I have said somewhere on that thread that the life of Muhammad was made from different persons real and fictionnal stories
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Reply #3448 - August 25, 2018, 09:01 PM

Quote from: Altara on August 25, 2018, 03:49 PM
It's seems to me curious that the Sebeos story of Mhmt (supposed to have written this stories of Mhmt in the 7th) are not known by the other writers of the 7th c. who never recounts that. So much so that I think it's much later, middle 8th c and corresponds to what we see of Christian authors of this time (which draw themselves from the Muslim narrative.)

2 questions :

1) Who are the authors of the 7th century who are telling a different story ?

2) I think Sebeos writings about Muhammad are quite different from later writings, either with its link with biblical narrative about Ismael, about the alliance with jews and the claim to the promise land and some details about his preaching. The only common ground they share is his merchant trade quote. Could you tell the names of the people who according to you tell the same story as Sebeos in the 8th c and later please ?
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Reply #3449 - August 25, 2018, 10:00 PM

Quote
Hanifiyya has 2 origins : 1) his mother was from the Hanifi tribe ; 2) Hanifiyya is also supposed to be a synonym of "pure"monotheism and appear in the Quran in relation with Abraham.

Regarding Muhammad, I am surprised by your question but I would say that this is something of which people have been conjecturing for centuries (about the meaning of the name in the first place).

Both words are from the Quran when coupled ; if we have "muhammad" before Islam, ( Suleiman Dost in academia) we do not have "Hanifiyya". Then the word Muhammad and Hanifiyya coupled comes probably from someone who has read the Quran (if not, from where...) and wanted to give the name he thought of the one who God is speaking in the texts and a quality of Abraham (not Jew not Christian). Then it means that the Quran is readable in the 7thc.
Muhammad is not a "name" it's and adjective I follow Kropp in this ( Youtube, Collège de France) about the Dome.

About Hanafiyya you uses 9th c. sources that you consider inexact and change the story they recount to make of him the "prophet" : with no sources to back you up.

Quote
However, in 1 or 2 non muslim chronicles, Muhammad is described as a guide. That is what was the Mahdi in the first place before being ascribed the function of redeemer/savior.

It seems to me meagre. There is no external source with both words Muhammad and Hanifiyya coupled which could corroborates your claim. It seems curious, if you are right, that the several sources we have in the 7th c. do not allude at all to this guy saying that "muhammad" to which they speak is 'Hanifiyya". Or just both words coupled in inscriptions ; there is nothing. Therefore it has to be set aside as hypothesis. Interesting, but conjecture.

Quote
Sorry but Muhammad is not mentioned in the Quran. That thinking is the islamic narrative but not what the text says. The 4 mentions of Muhammad could be interpolation but they don't tell us nothing about who or what is this Muhammad.

The story is made by literati in the beginning of the 7th who advices the (Iraqi) leaders from texts which were circulating as words giving to an Arab by God. God talk to who in the Quran? To an Arab, or a Japanese?
It was then deducted by the Arabs literati that the word "muhammad" was the Arab to whom God is speaking. They made a link between the two informations. Like all normal people.
And God speak always to him in the Quran. When he says "you". Thus was the comprehension of the literati of this stuff. It is very simple...

Quote
The 4 mentions of Muhammad could be interpolation but they don't tell us nothing about who or what is this Muhammad.

It shows that you did not read the Quran. The texts says many things. It is possible that you do not see it. It is not the place here to detail things, you're supposed to know the stuff.

Quote
Muhammad narrative is forced into the Quran in the sense that it is supposed to rely on Quran verses. But the text doesn't say so if you read it without preconception of the Muslim exegesis.

You did not read carefully the Quran. Muslim literati have scanned every word, allusion and has elaborate narratives biased of course but it is religion and an Arab "prophet" for Arab, like Moses, etc. As I said it is very simple.
Quote
The people who wrote Muhammad's history needed to link him to the Quran and also to explain some verses that they didn't understand at all because they weren't involved in the birth of the Quran but inherited it.

Nope, they needed nothing, because it was in the 7th c. Iraq. After, they elaborate the core story, they continued to do so. Thus they had in the 9th c. a perfect story which of course, with some arrangement " explain some verses that they didn't understand at all because they weren't involved in the birth of the Quran".
It was then deducted by the Arabs literati that the word "muhammad" was the Arab to whom God is speaking. They made a link between the two informations. Like all normal people. Muslim literati have scanned every word, allusion and has elaborate narratives biased of course but it is religion and an Arab "prophet" for Arab, like Moses, etc.
Quote
So, if I understand what you are saying, some scribes did spread texts that they had no idea where they come from and thought that they came from a prophet called Muhammad whom they knew nothing about.

As in fact, they do not understand the Quran, it means that it not comes from them. Therefore he should have come from scribes and literati, unless you think it comes from Heaven. Is that what you think?

Quote
Sorry, if this is what you meant, it doesn't make any sense and I wonder how you could come up to that.

It has perfect sense.
If you have a better idea (with sources...) I'm waiting... Muhammad Hanifiyya has wrote the Quran?
Quote
If you are referring to isnads going back to Zuhri or previous ahadith keepers, it comes from people writing under the Abassids.

Like you with Muhammad Hanifiyya.
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