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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2250 - June 18, 2018, 08:34 AM

    Please elaborate. How is it not a name and what is the significance of the Dome of the Rock?

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.2100
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2251 - June 18, 2018, 08:37 AM

    Altara - Based on the epigraphical record, I am currently more inclined to think that Muhammad is a proper name.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2252 - June 18, 2018, 09:49 AM

     "Muḥammad"  can be a a qualifier for anyone : Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Hud, Salih, etc.
    “muḥammad rasūl Allāh” >>>“praised be the Messenger of God.” That such a meaning is in accordance with Arabic grammar can be seen when we take the well-known phrase from Christian liturgy (Mt 23:39): mubārakun al-ʾātī bi-smi-al-rabb (“benedictus qui venit in nomine domine,” Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord”). Mubārak (“the blessed one”) and muḥammad (“the praised one”) can be considered synonyms, but also the second part of the sentence, “he that cometh in the name of the Lord” is next to synonymous to “he is the Messenger of God,” which would make the second part of the shahāda a quotation from the Bible.
    Yes, it is scientifically plausible. Manfred Kropp arrives to the same conclusion without the use of the  shahada and in taking another example : the inscription of the Dome of the Rock :

    (
    Quote
    S)bi-smi llaahi r-raHmaani r-raHiimi laa ilaaha ill.aa llaahu  waHda-huu
    laa shariika la-huu la-huu l-mulku wa-la-huu 1-Hamdu yuHyii wa-yumiitu wa-huwa  calaa kulli shaycin qadiir. MuHammadun cabdu  llaahi wa-rasuulu-huu


    MuHammadun cabdu  llaahi wa-rasuulu-huu : can be scientifically  translated as :

    Praised be the servant of Allah and his apostle
    Which person is it?
    Quote
    (SE)cinna  llaaha wa-malaacikatu-huu yuSalluuna  calaa n-nabiiyi.
    yaa-ayyu-haa lladhiina caamanuu Salluu calay-hi i wa-sallimuu tasliimaa Sallaa llaahu calay-hii
    wa-s-salaamun calay-hii wa-raHmatu Uaahi.
    yaa-ahla 1-kitaabi laa taGluu fii diini-kum. Allah and his angels pray on the prophet


     (remark the use of nabi and not rasul...)
    Which person is it?
    Does the rest of the text identify him?

    Quote
    yaa-ahla 1-kitaabi laa taGluu fii diini-kum


    This phrase show that the text is dealing with Christian thing and not ("muslim")
    It's Jesus the text is talking about since the beginning but "Jesus" according to the Quranic idea : rasul/prophet  who is seen erroneously by  the Christian theology :
    Quote
    yaa-ahla 1-kitaabi laa taGluu fii diini-kum

     as an exaggeration by the Quranic theology.

    The rest of the text confirms this comprehension :
    Quote
    (E)wa-laa taquuluu  Calaa llaahi illaa 1-Haqqa!
    cinna-maa 1-masiiHu Ciisaa bnu Maryama rasuulu llaahi wa-kalimatu-huu calqaa-haa cilaa  Ma1yama wa-muHun min-huu. Say nothing about Allah but the truth! The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, is only the Apostle of Allah.

    It's about Jesus and no one else.

    Then it is perfectly (and reasonably) plausible that  "MuHammadun" in this inscription qualifies Jesus. Kropp here his demonstration being scientifically exact, logically (like 1+1=2) he says that "MuHammadun"qualifies Jesus.
    So "MuHammadun" may be not a proper name. It is totally clear to me and scientifically, regarding the Kropp demonstration, irrefutable."MuHammadun" is a qualifier, not a proper name.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2253 - June 18, 2018, 02:36 PM

    Hmmm.. there are important words in  Altara's post .. let me put pointers on part of his post  
    .................................

    1), Then it is perfectly (and reasonably) plausible that  "MuHammadun" in this inscription qualifies Jesus.

    2).  Kropp here his demonstration being scientifically exact, logically (like 1+1=2) he says that "MuHammadun"qualifies Jesus.

    3). So "MuHammadun"(( may be)) IS not a proper name. It is totally clear to me and scientifically, regarding the Kropp demonstration, irrefutable."MuHammadun" is a qualifier, not a proper name.


    dear  Altara .. I hope readers understand your point...  beautifully done.,  in fact I replace that "may be not " with "is not " .. Indeed  Quranic Muhammad story of all those so-called Meccan surahs  is nothing but story of Jesus

    The serious problem appears to be academic explorers of faiths............... specially Islam.............  It is like what that guy Michael Lecker said about Dan Gibson's Qur'ānic Geography..

    Quote
    "Prof. Michael Lecker's review of Gibson's Qur'ānic Geography in the Journal of Semitic Studies from 2014, ends the sentence: "This book’s imaginative writing may have its followers, perhaps even in academic circles. But the study of early Islamic history is better served by small steps, one at a time."[2]


    ..............Islamic history is better served by small steps...... ..

     that is a funny statement ..  so these guys can spend their life and tax payers money by writing silly stories   on  EVERY  WORD that is there in Quran  and  they want make a book OUT OF EACH WORD OF QURAN...

    Mock them and move on
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2254 - June 18, 2018, 04:11 PM

    Is Morris agree with Zaotar?

    I don’t know what Morris’s view is on this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2255 - June 18, 2018, 04:20 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1008721344232476673
    Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
    What about the 'lost' tribe of Thamud? The Quran presents them as the successors of Ad. Contextually, they are equated with the ʾaṣḥāb al-Ḥiǧr (Q15:80) ‘dwellers of Al-Hijr’, the Nabataean site of al-Ḥegr/Ḥegrā ~250 mi NW of Medina. Can we find Thamud in the epigraphy?

    Quote
    The Nabataean world appears to have been the setting of the Qur’an’s ‘lost’ Arabian tribes, as both Ad and Thamud can be located within it. These references, together with the Arabic language and script of the Qur’an, could point to a Nabataean heritage for its original audience.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2256 - June 18, 2018, 04:47 PM

    That “guy”, is none other than Michael Lecker, professor of Arabic at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. My advice to you, Yeezevee, is to pay homage and show respect to the scholars who are actually doing something useful in this field and have contributed important studies that have improved our knowledge of the past. This especially so considering that Lecker is more knowledgeable than me and you. If you have something important to contribute, then please go and publish it somewhere. Forgive me if I am wrongly assuming here, but please go and read Lecker’s actual review of Gibson’s work instead of citing one sentence from the Wikipedia page. Scholars such as Lecker are not writing “silly stories”, as you put it, but are doing actual research and are careful work, not succumbing to sensationalism and pseudo-skepticism and scholarship. He is the last person here to be mocker and laughed at.

    Disagree with Lecker all you want, but you should at the very least have some decency and respect. That is all.

    Going unto another issue. How are you so certain that Muhammad is not a proper name, Yeezevee? Is you source Altara? Can you provide any scholarly sources or arguments? Lastly, and this question is also aimed at Altara: what would convince you two that Muhammad was a proper name? Please give a concrete answer. And as always, with all due respect to the both of you.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2257 - June 18, 2018, 05:03 PM

     al-Ḥiǧr is Mecca then?
    I dunno what he's talking about...

    Quote
    These references, together with the Arabic language and script of the Qur’an, could point to a Nabataean heritage for its original audience.


    Van Putten says linguistically : nope.
    Moreover, to me, the Quranic Arabic script have more to see with the Syriac one than the Nabataean one. I follow F. Briquel-Chatonnet on this ; you just have to see the images : https://www.academia.edu/attachments/31723847/download_file?st=MTUyOTM0MTI0NCw4Ni42Ny4yNS43NywyNjczNDkz&s=profile
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2258 - June 18, 2018, 05:07 PM

    Thanks for the reference, Altara. Al-Jallad and Putten have responded to this. Maybe will post their response soon.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2259 - June 18, 2018, 05:09 PM

    Quote
    Lastly, and this question is also aimed at Altara: what would convince you two that Muhammad was a proper name?


    It has become a proper name. But was not as demonstrated by Kropp.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2260 - June 18, 2018, 05:10 PM

    Yes, but my question was what would it take to convince you that it was a proper name back then in the first century AH. The argument is that it was not a proper name until 715 CE.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2261 - June 18, 2018, 06:18 PM

    Quote
    what would it take to convince you that it was a proper name back then in the first century.

    In 685 coin of Bishapur.
    But the meaning is ambiguous: In 692 AD it was not the proper name of an "Meccan Prophet", but a qualifier of the "prophet" Jesus as demonstrated by Kropp.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2262 - June 18, 2018, 07:18 PM

    Thanks. One must also mention a crucial detail: According to this model, Muhammad was not a proper name until the year 715 CE., i.e. the entire first/seventh century. This is very significant because it is contradicted by the numismatic, epigraphic and literary evidence. Now, I could respond to your argument, but that would entail copying my essay on this topic, which is not done as of yet. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2263 - June 18, 2018, 08:06 PM

    685's Bishapur coin "Muhammad rasul Allah" the Muhammad word of the Quran.
    In the Dome, (692 AD) "MuHammadun" a qualifier of Jesus, rasul Allah, as demonstrated by Kropp.
    As I (already) said it is an ambiguous word. The attestation of its use is interesting in 685 as well as in 692  and poses question about the existence of "Muhammad".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2264 - June 19, 2018, 06:30 PM

    685's Bishapur coin "Muhammad rasul Allah" the Muhammad word of the Quran.
    In the Dome, (692 AD) "MuHammadun" a qualifier of Jesus, rasul Allah, as demonstrated by Kropp.
    As I (already) said it is an ambiguous word. The attestation of its use is interesting in 685 as well as in 692  and poses question about the existence of "Muhammad".


    Last time I saw., that  Bishapur  is  some 500 miles  from Mecca and is in present Iran.,  I  wonder why such "Muhammad rasul Allah" coins were  not found in Mecca or Madina  instead we have them in past  Persia?
    *****************************************************************************************

    Hmm...  Hello Mahgraye
    That “guy”, is none other than Michael Lecker, professor of Arabic at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. My advice to you, Yeezevee, is to pay homage and show respect to the scholars who are actually doing something useful in this field and have contributed important studies that have improved our knowledge of the past. This especially so considering that Lecker is more knowledgeable than me and you. If you have something important to contribute, then please go and publish it somewhere. Forgive me if I am wrongly assuming here, but please go and read Lecker’s actual review of Gibson’s work instead of citing one sentence from the Wikipedia page. Scholars such as Lecker are not writing “silly stories”, as you put it, but are doing actual research and are careful work, not succumbing to sensationalism and pseudo-skepticism and scholarship. He is the last person here to be mocker and laughed at.

    Disagree with Lecker all you want, but you should at the very least have some decency and respect. That is all.

    Going unto another issue. How are you so certain that Muhammad is not a proper name, Yeezevee? Is you source Altara? Can you provide any scholarly sources or arguments? Lastly, and this question is also aimed at Altara: what would convince you two that Muhammad was a proper name? Please give a concrete answer. And as always, with all due respect to the both of you.


    Well  that needs  a proper response... but no time right now....But on this..

     
    Quote
    That “guy”, is none other than Michael Lecker, professor of Arabic at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem  ............... He is the last person here to be mocker and laughed at.

    dear Mahgraye   ...  you may not have realized   but  in a forum like this   here if some one is wrong....  it doesn't matter whether he/she is  professor...  messenger  ... god..  president   or Prime minister of Israel..... THEY WILL  GET WHAT THEY DESERVE......

    and that Prof.. Mr.. Dr..Michael Lecker is wrong saying... this
    Quote
     "Prof. Michael Lecker's review of Gibson's Qur'ānic Geography in the Journal of Semitic Studies from 2014, ends the sentence: "This book’s imaginative writing may have its followers, perhaps even in academic circles. But the study of early Islamic history is better served by small steps, one at a time."[2]


    And please realize.... respecting people for their work is different from   appeasing to Authority.....


    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2265 - June 19, 2018, 07:12 PM

    Hi, Yeezevee. No one said that one should appease authorities. Lecker’s remark - the one you keep quoting - is in no way wrong.

    Why was the coin struck in Bīshāpūr in the Fārs province? Because the Zubayrids possessed control over the Iraq regions and expressed their new
    Islamic imperial rule with reference to the Prophet and putative founder of the state. Mint, and infrastructure and society in general, existed in that area, which was further north. The minting of the coin in Bīshāpūr carries no significance. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2266 - June 19, 2018, 11:19 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/bdaiwi_historia/status/1009097764817555456
    Quote
    Kalam, “Islamic theology” (not always accurate), represents arguably the most dynamic, intellectually-thriving, & philosophically-rich scholarly tradition in Islam. But what’s the origin of kalam? Summary thread to follow. The story begins in the early 500s & 600s AD Middle East

  • Re: Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2267 - June 21, 2018, 04:19 PM


    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/AENJournal/status/1009793224679067648
    Quote
    Another excellent article in @PhDniX series on the Quranic Arabic. Why is this important? Recent c14 studies confirm that the earliest Qurans date to the 7th century CE, but we must not confuse the part for the whole. The "7th century" Quran is the consonantal skeleton (rasm) preserved in these early documents. The fully vocalized Quran comes from at least a century later. Can we be sure that the language of the 7th century Qurans was identical to the reading traditions placed upon the rasm in the 8th and 9th c.? @PhDniX doesn't take this for granted and in these articles studies spellings and variation in the earliest Quranic mss. in light of other 7th c. Arabic documents and transcriptions in Greek to triangulate the Quran's original dialect.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2268 - June 21, 2018, 06:49 PM

    An excellent article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2269 - June 21, 2018, 06:51 PM

    Indeed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2270 - June 22, 2018, 03:57 AM

     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2271 - June 22, 2018, 06:16 AM

    Gibson has a new article on the name Mecca/Petra:

    http://www.academia.edu/36865528/Petra_in_the_Quran

    Interesting is the mention of Thomas Artsruni placing Mecca in Arabia Petraea. But he isn't giving much info on the reliability of the source. Crone mentions Artsruni too in Hagarism...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2272 - June 22, 2018, 12:13 PM

     bunny

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2273 - June 22, 2018, 03:07 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1010104623934377984
    Quote from: Ahmad Al-Jallad
    What was #Fate in #AncientArabia? Desert life was hard and filled with uncertainty. Survival in this marginal environment was dependent upon the timely arrival of rains, and there was a constant threat from predators – lions, hyenas, wolves, etc. – and raiders from enemy tribes.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2274 - June 22, 2018, 06:49 PM

    I invite you (all) to read this dissertation.

    AN ARABIAN QUR’ĀN: TOWARDS A THEORY OF PENINSULAR ORIGINS
    A DISSERTATION SUBMITTED TO
    THE FACULTY OF THE DIVISION OF THE HUMANITIES
    IN CANDIDACY FOR THE DEGREE OF
    DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY
    DEPARTMENT OF NEAR EASTERN LANGUAGES AND CIVILIZATIONS
    BY
    SULEYMAN DOST
    CHICAGO, ILLINOIS
    JUNE 2017
    https://www.academia.edu/36831359/Dissertation_-_Defense_Draft_2016_

    Manat, the goddess of fate, is discussed by Suleyman Dost on pages 41-44 of his dissertation.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2275 - June 23, 2018, 09:22 AM

    Forthcoming book

    Jack Tannous - The Making of the Medieval Middle East: Religion, Society, and Simple Believers

    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/13281.html
    Quote
    A bold new religious history of the late antique and medieval Middle East that places ordinary Christians at the center of the story

    In the second half of the first millennium CE, the Christian Middle East fractured irreparably into competing churches and Arabs conquered the region, setting in motion a process that would lead to its eventual conversion to Islam. Jack Tannous argues that key to understanding these dramatic religious transformations are ordinary religious believers, often called “the simple” in late antique and medieval sources. Largely agrarian and illiterate, these Christians outnumbered Muslims well into the era of the Crusades, and yet they have typically been invisible in our understanding of the Middle East’s history.

    What did it mean for Christian communities to break apart over theological disagreements that most people could not understand? How does our view of the rise of Islam change if we take seriously the fact that Muslims remained a demographic minority for much of the Middle Ages? In addressing these and other questions, Tannous provides a sweeping reinterpretation of the religious history of the medieval Middle East.

    This provocative book draws on a wealth of Greek, Syriac, and Arabic sources to recast these conquered lands as largely Christian ones whose growing Muslim populations are properly understood as converting away from and in competition with the non-Muslim communities around them.

    Jack Tannous is assistant professor of history at Princeton University.

    Endorsements

    “The Making of the Medieval Middle East is no less than a marvelous achievement—there isn’t a stone Tannous has left unturned in his path of inquiry. Future scholars will have to reconsider their methods and theses in light of this bold and exceptional book.”—Uriel I. Simonsohn, author of A Common Justice: The Legal Allegiances of Christians and Jews under Early Islam

    “This is undoubtedly a work of major importance. By shifting the focus from intellectual elites to everyday Christian believers, Tannous provides a more illuminating understanding of the gradual transition to the majority Islamic world of the medieval Middle East.”—Sebastian Brock, author of An Introduction to Syriac Studies

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2276 - June 23, 2018, 11:11 AM

    Uriel Simonsohn - Conversion, Exemption, and Manipulation: Social Benefits and Conversion to Islam in Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages

    https://www.medievalworlds.net/0xc1aa5576%200x00372f27.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2277 - June 23, 2018, 11:31 AM

    Lev Weitz - Syriac Christians in the Medieval Islamic World: Law, Family, and Society

    http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.841.1066&rep=rep1&type=pdf
    Quote
    Chapter Five

    Polygyny and East Syrian Law: Local Practices and Ecclesiastical Tradition

    Sometime in the last decade of the seventh century, a wealthy Christian man of Karkā d-Bēt Slōk (modern Kirkuk) named Aḥōnā passed away. What happened next was predictable enough, given that Aḥōnā was a man of some means: his relatives got in a fight over how to split up the property he left behind. In this particular case, however, those relatives included wives and children from two separate – but simultaneous – marriages. The clerical hierarchy of the Church of the East was none too happy about this situation, a fact that was to have a decisive impact on the outcome of the case when it came before the patriarch Ḥnānīšōʿ.358

    While polygynous arrangements like Aḥōnā’s were relatively common in many societies and cultures of the medieval Middle East, essentially all lettered Christian traditions had long maintained that polygyny was outside the bounds of acceptable practice for committed Christians. In this chapter we will examine the ongoing efforts of East Syrian bishops from Sasanian times to the ʿAbbāsid period to impress upon lay people a notion of Christian marriage as necessarily monogamous. The chapter has three main purposes: to document the presence of polygynous practices among Christian communities in Syria, Iraq, Arabia, and Iran; to examine the development of ecclesiastical strategies to mark such practices as specifically un-Christian in the context of the socio-political transformations of the late antique and early Islamic Middle East; and, where possible, to bring to light lay reception and responses to the ecclesiastical position. By the chapter’s end, we will see that various forms of polygynous household organization were customary in certain sections of Middle Eastern societies, especially elite ones, and that many lay Christians held to them just as did their non-Christian neighbors. From an early date, however, East Syrian bishops set a legal standard defining polygyny as outside the bounds of the marital practices that denoted membership in their vision of Christian community. In the ʿAbbāsid period the opportunities of Muslim courtly society gave new visibility to polygynous practice among elite Christians. At the same time, the increased efforts of bishops like Īšōʿbōkt, Timothy, and Īšōʿbarnūn to formalize a comprehensive communal legal tradition resulted in new strategies to combat lay polygyny, particularly by regulating the inheritance practices of Christians, like Aḥōnā and his competing heirs, ever more closely.
    ....


    Edit: new book

    Lev Weitz - Between Christ and Caliph: Law, Marriage, and Christian Community in Early Islam

    http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15785.html
    Quote
    In the conventional historical narrative, the medieval Middle East was composed of autonomous religious traditions, each with distinct doctrines, rituals, and institutions. Outside the world of theology, however, and beyond the walls of the mosque or the church, the multireligious social order of the medieval Islamic empire was complex and dynamic. Peoples of different faiths—Sunnis, Shiites, Christians, Jews, and others—interacted with each other in city streets, marketplaces, and even shared households, all under the rule of the Islamic caliphate. Laypeople of different confessions marked their religious belonging through fluctuating, sometimes overlapping, social norms and practices.

    In Between Christ and Caliph, Lev E. Weitz examines the multiconfessional society of early Islam through the lens of shifting marital practices of Syriac Christian communities. In response to the growth of Islamic law and governance in the seventh through tenth centuries, Syriac Christian bishops created new laws to regulate marriage, inheritance, and family life. The bishops banned polygamy, required that Christian marriages be blessed by priests, and restricted marriage between cousins, seeking ultimately to distinguish Christian social patterns from those of Muslims and Jews. Through meticulous research into rarely consulted Syriac and Arabic sources, Weitz traces the ways in which Syriac Christians strove to identify themselves as a community apart while still maintaining a place in the Islamic social order. By binding household life to religious identity, Syriac Christians developed the social distinctions between religious communities that came to define the medieval Islamic Middle East. Ultimately, Between Christ and Caliph argues that interreligious negotiations such as these lie at the heart of the history of the medieval Islamic empire.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2278 - June 23, 2018, 04:06 PM

    Manat, the goddess of fate, is discussed by Suleyman Dost on pages 41-44 of his dissertation.


    Yes. Many key words are discussed by Dost in his dissertation where he declares regularly that they are Arabic words because there are inscriptions (essentially in Yemen) that testify to the presence of these precise words For him it proves that the Quran comes from the peninsula. Of course they are (Arabic), because the Quran is written in Arabic (!!!).  He seems to forget that Arabs are in Edessa (Urfa, Turkey) from the middle of the 4th c. and that they are installed by the Romans on the West (Syria-Palestine) from 450.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2279 - June 24, 2018, 12:23 PM

    Lameen Souag - Yūnus/Jonah viewed through hapaxes

    https://mobile.twitter.com/lameensouag/status/1010669108009062400
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