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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2520 - July 23, 2018, 08:46 PM
    Quote from: Altara on July 22, 2018, 08:01 PM

    2/ We know (from non Muslim sources )that theses Arabs call themselves "Muhajirun" and they would not call a "caliph" "caliph"? .Why one and not another? Especially that "caliph" (like the other) is a Quranic word, it seems improbable. The response is that there was "Muhajirun", but not "caliph", as attested by the inscriptions of Muawiya where this word does not exists.


    I have issues agreeing with you on this because :

    - I don't believe all those arabs were muhajirun, the islamic narrative itself highlighting another party the ansar, and the Medina covenant mentionning the jews, the believer, the muslims,
    - I don't think all those arabs were muhajirun and that the conquest in the east was linked with he conquest in the west (meaning under one banner), and the Sunni/Shia war might derive from that,


    Now, like I said, not having the non muslim sources using the same words as the islamic narrative or going into the same level of details, doesn't mean the islamic narrative is fictitious (though I think it is). I will take 1 example to demonstrate this.

    One inscription in the baths of Hammat Gader refer to the year X according to the arab, an inscription on a dam in Taif refer to the year X, and a papyrus dated the same year as the inscription of the baths of Hammat Gader refer to the year X according to the jurisdiction of the believers.

    What I want to show with the above example is that you have 3 different sources refering to the same calendar but the way they do is different. The wording "according to the arabs" comes from non arab scribes and clearly shows that they didn't report it as in arab sources (of course this shows that the Hijra was a later addition but it is not my point here).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2521 - July 23, 2018, 09:50 PM
    Quote
    - I don't believe all those arabs were muhajirun, the islamic narrative itself highlighting another party the ansar, and the Medina covenant mentionning the jews, the believer, the muslims,


    We have the evidence : PERF 558  (643) Egyptian papyri :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558
    Quote
    I don't think all those arabs were muhajirun and that the conquest in the east was linked with he conquest in the west (meaning under one banner), and the Sunni/Shia war might derive from that,

    Muhajirun is used  in Egypt (643) in Iraq (scribal non Muslim sources)  : transcribed in Greek in Egypt  "Magaritae",and Syriac in Iraq "Magrayé" word unknown before the taking over of the Arabs. This words are clearly the transcription of Muhajir/un


    Quote
    What I want to show with the above example is that you have 3 different sources referring to the same calendar but the way they do is different. The wording "according to the Arabs" comes from non Arab scribes and clearly shows that they didn't report it as in Arab sources


    Quote
    but the way they do is different


    It supposed to be the same way by the historiographers of the 9th : we have the contrary.>> the historiographers of the 9th are wrong.

    Quote
    The wording "according to the Arabs" comes from non Arab scribes and clearly shows that they didn't report it as in Arab sources


    You do not know that ; they report differently of what will be the way of the 9th c. They report differently because the Arabs who exists at that time, does not correspond to those who have been imagined by the  historiographers of the 9th.

    Quote
    One inscription in the baths of Hammat Gader refer to the year X according to the arab, an inscription on a dam in Taif refer to the year X, and a papyrus dated the same year as the inscription of the baths of Hammat Gader refer to the year X according to the jurisdiction of the believers.


    Precisely, this shows that what recounts the historiographers of the 9th is inexact about the Arabs of the taking over in the years 630.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2522 - July 23, 2018, 09:54 PM
    This AJ Deus guy seems like fraud.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2523 - July 23, 2018, 10:44 PM
    Quote from: Altara on July 23, 2018, 09:50 PM
    We have the evidence : PERF 558  (643) Egyptian papyri :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PERF_558Muhajirun is used  in Egypt (643) in Iraq (scribal non Muslim sources)  : transcribed in Greek in Egypt  "Magaritae",and Syriac in Iraq "Magrayé" word unknown before the taking over of the Arabs. This words are clearly the transcription of Muhajir/un



    Other words are used like tayyaye, ishamelite, sons of hagar,etc, in the east as well in the west by non muslim sources but there are other reasons why I believe you had different groups anyway.

    Quote from: Altara on July 23, 2018, 09:50 PM
    You do not know that ; they report differently of what will be the way of the 9th c. They report differently because the Arabs who exists at that time, does not correspond to those who have been imagined by the  historiographers of the 9th.

    Precisely, this shows that what recounts the historiographers of the 9th is inexact about the Arabs of the taking over in the years 630.


    Sorry what I meant by "they didn't report it as in the arab sources" is this,   the writings on the baths of Hamat Gader says the year X according to the arabs while 2 arab sources say : 1) the year X according to the juridiction of the Believers (egyptian papyrus) and 2) the year X (Taif dam).

    I didn't mean to refer to 9th c sources. I only wanted to show that your argument (You don't find some items from the 9th century arab sources in the non muslim sources) cannot be 100% relevant. it needs to be scrutinized item by item.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2524 - July 23, 2018, 10:50 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 23, 2018, 09:54 PM
    This AJ Deus guy seems like fraud.


    AJ is a great guy. You can find some pearls without agree on all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2525 - July 24, 2018, 12:21 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 23, 2018, 09:54 PM
    This AJ Deus guy seems like fraud.

     Cheesy  why would you say that dear Mahgraye?  did you read him?  did you meet him?  Do you know who AJ Deu is??   Well he is a Muslim guy trying his best  within his limits to get Muslims understand Islam of his type...

    And  Altara is right  "You can find some good stuff from his works without believing in all what he says " but I am sure Altara realizes that  Deus  works around Quran/hadiths /sunnah stories of Islamic prophet ..

    If  Quran/hadiths /sunnah stories  are fraud then it is NOT Deus fault  Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2526 - July 24, 2018, 12:54 PM
    Quote from: YEEZEVEE SAYS  link=topic=27568.msg878271#msg878271 date=1532346312
    Hello Marc S... ..Yes.. I agree with you and Yes we should .. we must develop  new ways of looking in to the WORD "MUHAMMAD".,  

     As  for as person "Muhammad".. alleged Prophet of Islam is concerned .,

     After figuring out the "origins of the word Muhammad", We must  inquire why a person was named as Muhammad  and more importantly who gave that name to him?  where was he born? and what year?  and when did he die ? And those who wrote stories on Muhammad ,   where did folks get the information on that person  and how??

    Such questions are very basic to investigate origins of Islam dear Marc S.. Don't you agree with me? No..No you are NOT WRONG.,  you got that right from reading my posts
    I will... I will ... and I am  doing that for a long time Marc S., I have limited time and I am NOT ISLAMIC SCHOLAR.. I mean by that.. my bread & butter does not come from writing article /books/teachings on Islam .. But it  comes from writing article /books/teaching in basic and applied sciences

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    Quote from: MARC S RESPONDS on July 23, 2018, 08:17 PM
    Sorry I didn't mean to offend you but you are not the first one to come up with this theory about Muhammad being a title but , so far, I haven't seen anyone coming with proofs or facts about this assumption. So I thought that you had some items you could share with us that made you think like that.

    No..No.. dear Marc you have not written anything that is offensive to me .,  Yes..yes... you are right I AM NOT THE FIRST ONE to say   that Muhammad is  a title"  for Prophet/s of Islam" and I never claimed that I am the first one .,

    My source for that is Muhammad in Quran and Muhammad in Hadith  the same source that  AJ Deus  uses to write his stuff ..

     
    Quote
    As to whqt was the name of Muhammad before islam, I guess you are aware that some people said that his name was Qatham .  The only one I know who was able to use islamic litterature and link it with "true" history and give the name of Muhammad is AJ Deus in his book The Great Leap Fraud part II Islam. The coincidence he raises is surprising though I am not 100% convinced by his arguments.

    I am glad  you are NOT  convinced by  Deus bag  arguments. But  where did you think that  Deus bag got that name Qatham   for "prophet of Islam"??

     I tell you where  he gets it.,   from Pakistan....  from Pakistan  Ahmadiyya sect of Islam... or From Arabic/Farsi/Urdu words on "Khatm-e-Nabuwat"/ Qatham -e-Nabuwat??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2527 - July 24, 2018, 01:07 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on July 23, 2018, 12:19 PM
    deleted ......
    yeezevee 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2528 - July 24, 2018, 01:20 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on July 23, 2018, 08:04 PM
    I did but I am not sure to see what you mean. Can you please clarify ?

    Marc S  said that to these words
    Quote from: yeezevee on July 23, 2018, 12:19 PM
    well I miss so many points Marc S .. missing your point is not big deal and  missing important points  is not new to me., Just curious,  did you read what that 7th-century Armenian bishop Sebeos  said on Muhammad and Caliphs after Muhammad .. The Alleged Prophet of Islam died??

    well dear Marc S . what I mean to say by writing that response is simply

    1) I do miss lot of points in reading posts of web friends on this forum and on other forums

    2). it was just an inquiry  on "whether   you read what that 7th-century Armenian bishop Sebeos  said on Muhammad and Caliphs after Muhammad .. The Alleged Prophet of Islam died??"

    that is all what I meant.. As far as this example of yours that  Byzantine rulers were  KINGS & PRIESTS UNDER THE SAME SKIN  is concerned
    Quote
    Marc S:  The Byzantine empire is the very example of this.  
    And I suspect, but cannot substantiate it enough, that the reason for building the Dome of Rock was because Abd Al Malik wanted to challenge that leadership both religiously and then politically. For me, this is where the caliph notion comes from.


    Nope  the Byzantine empire  is   NOT an example of  KING & PRIEST UNDER THE SAME SKIN.,  If you think that way  then  you are Wrong..  The rulers of  Byzantine empire ......many of them had priests ..head priests... during their times



    with best regards
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2529 - July 24, 2018, 09:29 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on July 23, 2018, 10:44 PM
    Other words are used like tayyaye, ishamelite, sons of hagar,etc, in the east as well in the west by non muslim sources


    The words you say are the word used by non Arab people to name Arabs before Islam.
    Nothing to see with the PERF 558 or the Iraqi scribal non Muslim sources where a NEW word appears : Muhajirun when Arabs take over these lands.
    Muhajirun is used  in Egypt (643) in Iraq (scribal non Muslim sources)  : transcribed in Greek in Egypt  "Magaritae",and Syriac in Iraq "Magrayé" word unknown before the taking over of the Arabs. This words are clearly the transcription of Muhajir/un and did not exist before.

    Quote
    Sorry what I meant by "they didn't report it as in the arab sources" is this,   the writings on the baths of Hamat Gader says the year X according to the arabs while 2 arab sources say : 1) the year X according to the juridiction of the Believers (egyptian papyrus) and 2) the year X (Taif dam).


    It means that this people are all agree on a certain date. But express it in different ways.
    Does not surprise me ; this shows that what recounts the historiographers of the 9th is inexact about the Arabs of the taking over in the years 630.

    Quote
    I didn't mean to refer to 9th c sources. I only wanted to show that your argument (You don't find some items from the 9th century arab sources in the non muslim sources) cannot be 100% relevant. it needs to be scrutinized item by item.


    It is perfectly relevant. And of course each affirmations of the  9th century arab sources must be checked ; for the most part, they are all not corroborated by contemporary sources. So that  the  9th century Arab sources are inexact, not reliable, or false : you can choose the word you want.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2530 - July 24, 2018, 11:05 PM
    Yeezevee,

    So youthink you have different Muhammads because there is a difference between the Muhammad in the Quran and the Muhammad in the ahadith ? Is that correct ? Can you give an example ? (btw, I think you are making a mistake thinking Muhammad is mentionned in the Quran as per the islamic tradition ; I think it never is ; the coranic verses were read in order to build Muhammad's life but they never refered to him).

    The name Qatham doesn't come from AJ Deus bu from people like Noddelkke, AJ Deus has another opinion that connect to an historical person.

    Is there anything special I should have noticed from reading Sebeos ? I am not sure to understand where you are getting at.

    I truly think that originally the concept of caliph originated from the Byzantium emperor, the Muhammad figure was added later, not to mention the mahdi.  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2531 - July 24, 2018, 11:35 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1021718219785162752
    Quote
    An interesting point of disagreement between the consonantal text and the readings occurs in quran.com/19/19 He (Gabriel) said (to Mary): "I am only the messenger of your lord so that I give you a pure boy". The agency of Gabriel in giving the boy is a theological problem


    Also:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1021718239989166081

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MohsenGT/status/1021809717600038912

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1021718222524088321
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2532 - July 25, 2018, 09:08 AM
    Where do you find these threads? I'm not on twitter, so genuine question.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2533 - July 25, 2018, 10:27 AM
    I just check a few people’s twitter feeds regularly - in particular Morris, Reynolds, Al-Jallad, Van Putten, Sean Anthony and Guillaume Dye. I’m not signed up to twitter either.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2534 - July 25, 2018, 02:19 PM
    dear Marc your post here is loaded with different subjects of Islam  let me make them as different points of interest with in Islam
    Quote from: Marc S on July 24, 2018, 11:05 PM
    Yeezevee,

    Quote
    1). So youthink you have different Muhammads because there is a difference between the Muhammad in the Quran and the Muhammad in the ahadith ? Is that correct ? Can you give an example ? (btw, I think you are making a mistake thinking Muhammad is mentionned in the Quran as per the islamic tradition ; I think it never is ; the coranic verses were read in order to build Muhammad's life but they never refered to him).


    Quote
    2). The name Qatham doesn't come from AJ Deus bu from people like Noddelkke, AJ Deus has another opinion that connect to an historical person.


    Quote
    3). Is there anything special I should have noticed from reading Sebeos ? I am not sure to understand where you are getting at.

     

    Quote
    4. I truly think that originally the concept of caliph originated from the Byzantium emperor, the Muhammad figure was added later, not to mention the mahdi.  


    Each of those 4 points needs different answers/questions and arguments.,   well when you say some Byzantium emperor( Who?? which Byzantium emperor?? ..there are so many starting from  that "Constantine  the Great" around 360AD) who could have started this business of caliphate in Islam but  one must come-up with dates and name  of the person.. If you consider from the day alleged Prophet of Islam is born some 532 AD( Islamic story)  to the death of those four rightly guided caliphs that allegedly   happens in the year  661AD (https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0)  there were at least 8 Byzantium emperors...   What you said is an interesting point ..  that origin of words like "Caliph or Muhammad" though they were/are Arabic words ,   before the year 532(Prophet of Islam birth year) there were no Muhammad and Caliphs from Arabian   chiefs.. May be you are right These cartoon alleged chiefs of Islam are created by the  stories from  Byzantine emperors .

    but  it needs some sort of proof...

    As far as point on that Armenian Sebeos written history in early 7th century is concerned .. That Christian priest used just few words on "Mahamet " which he heard from some travelers and he write some story on alleged Arabian Prophet of Islam in his book.. That can not be proof  of existence of Muhammad..   There are many non-Muslim historians that believe in the history of what people like Sebeos  wrote on early Islamic history..  and we will discuss other two points of yours in time...........
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2535 - July 25, 2018, 02:23 PM
    Altara - You are right. Not sure why I wrote such a harsh comment.

    Yeezevee - I did not understand your comment. Yes, I have read bits of his articles. Deus is a revisionist who does not beleive Muḥammad existed. So, no, he does not follow the narrative. Maybe I misread you, but it seemed you were implying that.

    That Muḥammad’s real name was Qutham comes from the sīra of Nūr al-Dīn al-Ḥalabī (d. 1635).




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2536 - July 25, 2018, 05:55 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 25, 2018, 02:23 PM
    ...........................................

    Yeezevee - I did not understand your comment. Yes, I have read bits of his articles. Deus is a revisionist who does not beleive Muḥammad existed. So, no, he does not follow the narrative. Maybe I misread you, but it seemed you were implying that.

      forgive me  and forget what i write about dr. Deus and Mr. Juice dear  Mahgraye  but tell me about this
    Quote
    That Muḥammad’s real name was Qutham comes from the sīra of Nūr al-Dīn al-Ḥalabī (d. 1635).

     That reference is way after the  year 632....   but  Do  you read and write Persian language and I wonder whether you know the origin of that word  Qutham??

    Hmmm..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8au1Py1I3g

    i see..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2537 - July 25, 2018, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: zeca on July 24, 2018, 11:35 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1021718219785162752
    Also:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1021718239989166081

    https://mobile.twitter.com/MohsenGT/status/1021809717600038912

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1021718222524088321


    Very instructive threads, thanks Zeca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2538 - July 25, 2018, 09:24 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 25, 2018, 02:23 PM
    Altara - You are right. Not sure why I wrote such a harsh comment.


    I concede that AJ is a bizarre guy... and maybe a fraud for some scholars. The better remains to the fact that you acknowledged that fraud is not the word.

    Quote
    That Muḥammad’s real name was Qutham comes from the sīra of Nūr al-Dīn al-Ḥalabī (d. 1635).


    The seal of the prophet (33,40) khatam.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2539 - July 25, 2018, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on July 25, 2018, 02:23 PM
    Deus is a revisionist who does not beleive Muḥammad existed.


    Deus believes Muhammad real name was Iyas ibn Qabisah al-Ta'i, chief of the Tayy tribe.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2540 - July 25, 2018, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on July 25, 2018, 02:19 PM

      well when you say some Byzantium emperor( Who?? which Byzantium emperor?? ..there are so many starting from  that "Constantine  the Great" around 360AD) who could have started this business of caliphate in Islam but  one must come-up with dates and name  of the person..[/b][/u].


    Like the Inarah people, http://inarah.net/   I believe that islam first originated from a dispute regarding the nature of Christ. This then led much later on to the islam religion as we know it today. In Byzantium, and in Persia too by the way, the emperor would lead the Church and apointed the head of the church. He could even sometimes be active as a theologian or to influence the theology of christianism.

    So I think that is first what caliph meant before it evolves differently between sunnis and shias.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2541 - July 26, 2018, 10:53 AM
    Quote
    He could even sometimes be active as a theologian or to influence the theology of christianism.


    Sources?
    You project model of Islam on Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2542 - July 26, 2018, 12:03 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Marc S on July 25, 2018, 09:45 PM
    ................He could even sometimes be active as a theologian or to influence the theology of christianism. ...........

    Quote from: Altara on July 26, 2018, 10:53 AM
    1.  Sources?

    2. You project model of Islam on Christianity.


    well let me read through that Marc S  inarah.net link   but I can answer Altara's two pointers
    Quote
    Q:  Sources?.... :
     
    Quote from: Marc SOURCES on July 25, 2018, 09:45 PM
    ..... I believe that
    ...... the emperor would .....
    ......He could even sometimes ........
    ...... christianism......

    So I think .............


    Quote
    pointer 2. You project model of Islam on Christianity.  

    No Altara Marc is NOT projecting that.,  Marc IS BLAMING CHRISTIANITY/CHRISTIAN-ISM  for the birth of Islam..   Cheesy

    with best
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2543 - July 26, 2018, 12:17 PM
    Ok Yeez.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2544 - July 26, 2018, 04:01 PM
    Quote from: Altara on July 26, 2018, 10:53 AM
    Sources?
    You project model of Islam on Christianity.



    The role Heraclius played to try and impose monothelitism on the eastern church is a perfect example.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2545 - July 26, 2018, 05:53 PM
    monothelitism is not an invention of Heraclius
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2546 - July 26, 2018, 10:53 PM
    I never said he invented it but he choosed to favor it and to push it forward.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2547 - July 26, 2018, 11:05 PM
     He could even sometimes be active as a theologian or to influence the theology of christianism.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2548 - July 27, 2018, 08:12 AM
    There was a difference between the readings and the consonantal text. Van Puttens comment here is interesting:
    "
    Indeed, there are always theological ways out. "

    He continues:
    Indeed, there are always theological ways out. But it is interesting that to some readers it was a big enough problem that they preferred a reading that ignored the rasm. It is a testament to the transmission of the rasm that we don't find more manuscripts that write ليهب.
    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1022010223819739138
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2549 - July 27, 2018, 12:14 PM
    The readers of the rasm in the 8th c. have no idea of what it is all about. They have no link to the producers of the Quranic texts. Whereas they claim it in the 9th c. : Kaba, Zem Zem, Companion, "prophet", "Mecca", "Medina", Badr, Uhud, etc.
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